UK Parliament / Open data

Commons Bill [HL]

Debate on bills and Committee proceeding on Wednesday, 2 November 2005, in the House of Lords.
Commons Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage third day. Grand Committee off the floor of the House (Moses room). Schedules 1 and 2 as amended agreed to. Clauses 22-29 agreed to, Clause 23 as amended. Clause 30 under consideration. New clauses considered.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

675 c67-130GC 

Session

2005-06

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords Grand Committee
Commons Bill (HL). Explanatory Notes HL Bill 11-EN also published.
Monday, 27 June 2005
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Bach | 675 c68GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 107 and 108:"Page 31, line 20, after ““its”” insert ““provisional””""Page 31, ...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 675 c68-9GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 111 stands in my name. The amendment inquires of the Minister whether the words ““regu...

Show all contributions (162)
Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c71GC (Link to this contribution) I am aware that the timing in Wales is for the National Assembly, but I hope that my noble friend, w...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c72-3GC (Link to this contribution) The amendment would mean that only commons registration authorities could be given a power to set th...
Lord Bach | 675 c76-8GC (Link to this contribution) We certainly have some sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick, and other noble Lords regardin...
Lord Bach | 675 c79GC (Link to this contribution) Let me be as clear as I can. No, I did not mention statutory commons in my answer.
Lord Walpole | 675 c80GC (Link to this contribution) I rise at last to say something on the Bill. I declare an interest as the owner of one end of a comm...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c95GC (Link to this contribution) I have much sympathy with the noble Earl who has just spoken. The principles elicited by the noble L...
Earl of Caithness | 675 c105GC (Link to this contribution) In principle I am attracted by the amendment, but I see a huge difficulty. As we know, Natural Engla...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c104-5GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 134:"Page 14, line 37, at end insert—" ““(   )   Commons associations shall ha...
Duke of Montrose | 675 c109GC (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether the Minister understood that my amendment merely stated that the two authorities sh...
Lord Tyler | 675 c119-20GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendments Nos. 143 and 144. I must immediately tell the Committee that they were t...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 675 c121GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Government for moving as far as they have in addressing the concerns that many of us rai...
Earl Peel | 675 c124GC (Link to this contribution) Is the noble Lord seriously saying that he expects a grazier on a common to take access consideratio...
Earl of Caithness | 675 c118-9GC (Link to this contribution) moved, as an amendment to Amendment No. 142, Amendment No. 142A:"Line 4, leave out paragraphs (a) an...
Baroness Fookes | 675 c118GC (Link to this contribution) Before I put the question, I should point out that if Amendment No. 142 is agreed to, I cannot call ...
Lord Bach | 675 c130GC (Link to this contribution) On 28-day closures, my advice is that commoners do not have that power; it is a power either for the...
Lord Bach | 675 c128-9GC (Link to this contribution) I am always open to suggestions, but I have to say that we think we have this provision right. That ...
Baroness Byford | 675 c67-8GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 106:"Page 31, line 19, leave out ““during”” and insert ““throughout””" The nobl...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c68GC (Link to this contribution) We will give further consideration to the two issues raised in the amendment to which the noble Baro...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c70GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to my noble friend for his response on all the amendments. On the time period, as...
Duke of Montrose | 675 c70-1GC (Link to this contribution) I just want to give my backing to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Williams, about the timing,...
Lord Bach | 675 c71GC (Link to this contribution) I do understand that, but that is why I mentioned yesterday that we propose a pilot implementation t...
Baroness Byford | 675 c73GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for her response and will look carefully at what she said. I accept that the fe...
Lord Bach | 675 c73GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 118 to 120:"Page 12, line 23, at end insert—" ““(ga)   the persons who must ...
Lord Bach | 675 c82GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is an expert on the CROW Act. He will know that under that Act, the access management...
Lord Bach | 675 c82GC (Link to this contribution) In general terms, the answer is no, there can be no assurance, particularly as far as devolution is ...
Lord Inglewood | 675 c85-6GC (Link to this contribution) Having heard the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, it struck me that in the first half of his r...
Earl Peel | 675 c86GC (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend Lord Inglewood. I rather agree with him in his analysis of the speech by t...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 675 c82-3GC (Link to this contribution) I thank Members of the Committee who have spoken in this short debate. They have raised some very in...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c86-7GC (Link to this contribution) I find it difficult to speak from the Front Bench, given the different views that have been put over...
Lord Greaves | 675 c86GC (Link to this contribution) I would not presume or dare to talk about Wales in these circumstances. In England, the administrati...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c89GC (Link to this contribution) I want to pick up what the noble Baroness said. My understanding was that my noble friend said that ...
Lord Rotherwick | 675 c92GC (Link to this contribution) This may not be the most appropriate time to go into this matter—it may arise later—but the Minister...
Lord Bach | 675 c91-2GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to Members of the Committee. I shall do my best to answer them. Remember that Natural ...
Lord Greaves | 675 c92GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for his attempts to answer some of the questions I asked. He will prob...
Lord Greaves | 675 c92GC (Link to this contribution) My only comment to that is that I wonder how they know what resources will be needed to bring this i...
Lord Tyler | 675 c92-3GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister and to Members of the Committee for their contributions to this debate...
Duke of Montrose | 675 c93GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 127:"Page 14, line 22, leave out ““substantial support”” and insert ““majority s...
Earl of Caithness | 675 c94-5GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment of my noble friend the Duke of Montrose. As the Minister is aware—I mentione...
Lord Bach | 675 c95-6GC (Link to this contribution) Both the amendments that we are debating are related to the type of support required to determine wh...
Duke of Montrose | 675 c97GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to all Members of the Committee who have participated in the debate, which perhap...
Baroness Byford | 675 c97-8GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendment No. 130, which is grouped with Amendments Nos. 129 and 131. We are again ...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c98GC (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Baroness’s amendment. Exercising rights are crucial in this respect and I think ...
Lord Inglewood | 675 c97GC (Link to this contribution) Can ““substantial”” include a minority? Is it substantial if it is a minority?
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c104GC (Link to this contribution) In responding to the debate, which has been short but very useful, I should say that I appreciate th...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c104GC (Link to this contribution) I think the answer I can give my—oh! I was going to say ““my noble friend”” as we go back all those ...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c105GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Earl; he put it more succinctly than I could have done. One problem that could ari...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c106-7GC (Link to this contribution) We are not able to favour the request contained in the amendment to put the sort of representation t...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c111GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for opposing that Clause 28 stand part of the Bill. The clause i...
Baroness Byford | 675 c110-1GC (Link to this contribution) I nearly hesitate even to speak to this, because I am sure that if the Minister does not wish to acc...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 675 c107GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, for those words. I will look again at the amendment in the ...
Baroness Byford | 675 c107GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, has raised an interesting point, although I do not support her in t...
Lord Inglewood | 675 c103GC (Link to this contribution) On the principle that the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, has described behind the provision, my understand...
Baroness Byford | 675 c101GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for his comments. I wonder whether, before we come back on Report, he ...
Lord Bach | 675 c100-1GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness will not be surprised to hear that I do not agree with her opposition to the Ques...
Baroness Byford | 675 c100GC (Link to this contribution) I echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, when he said that this part of the Bill ...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c99-100GC (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendments Nos. 130 and 13...
Baroness Byford | 675 c99GC (Link to this contribution) As we go through the Bill, it is interesting how amendments spark and receive different responses, w...
Baroness Byford | 675 c120-1GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendment No. 145, which is in this group. I also thank the Minister for listening ...
Lord Greaves | 675 c123-4GC (Link to this contribution) I put it on record that on balance I agree with what the noble Earl, Lord Peel, has just said. I wel...
Lord Bach | 675 c125GC (Link to this contribution) This is a very interesting debate on a very interesting topic. The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, was typic...
Lord Tyler | 675 c125GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the Minister. Is he saying that the association will not even have a right to ...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c126GC (Link to this contribution) A big issue that has not yet arisen is the increase in what I would describe as extreme sports as a ...
Lord Bach | 675 c125-6GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord interrupted at exactly the right moment. That is perhaps the result of years of pract...
Lord Bach | 675 c126-7GC (Link to this contribution) Before I turn to the noble Earl’s amendment, I shall return briefly to the question posed by the nob...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 675 c128GC (Link to this contribution) It would be useful for Members of the Committee to know whether the Minister has taken enough comfor...
Baroness Byford | 675 c112-3GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to both noble Lords who have followed me along the line of querying the Government. Th...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 675 c112GC (Link to this contribution) I am still confused by the terminology of standard terms when you read a statement like, ““members o...
Lord Bach | 675 c115GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that the noble Earl will be kind enough to give me a moment; it is a large and important ques...
Lord Bach | 675 c115GC (Link to this contribution) I shall write to the noble Earl with a full answer. So that he can take the matter away and consider...
Duke of Montrose | 675 c115-6GC (Link to this contribution) I have been interested to hear what the Minister has had to say on the matter. Whether I am recommen...
Lord Greaves | 675 c129-30GC (Link to this contribution) Just because I think that the Government are largely right on this provision, it does not mean that ...
Lord Bach | 675 c67GC (Link to this contribution) Before we begin with Amendment No. 106, I seek the Committee’s indulgence to refer to a matter we de...
Duke of Montrose | 675 c68GC (Link to this contribution) I wish to speak to Amendment No. 114 in this group. Presumably the regulations will lay down the dat...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c71GC (Link to this contribution) I totally agree with what the noble Lord has just said. It will be critical that they have a realist...
Lord Bach | 675 c69-70GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 110 removes the powers in Schedule 2 for regulations to make provision for a transitio...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c71GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for his support. I hope that on Report my noble friend will have had...
Lord Bach | 675 c71GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 115:"Page 33, line 22, at end insert—" ““4A      Regulations under paragraph 2...
Duke of Montrose | 675 c73GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 122:"Page 13, line 17, leave out subsection (7)." The noble Duke said: This is ...
Baroness Byford | 675 c75GC (Link to this contribution) I speak to Amendment No. 123, which is in this group. I should like clarification on this matter. I ...
Lord Rotherwick | 675 c78GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for a very sympathetic answer. I am delighted to hear that funding will follow ...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c78-9GC (Link to this contribution) Did I understand the Minister to say that the funding was specific to statutory commons? I got the i...
Lord Rotherwick | 675 c79GC (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendments Nos. 122B to 12...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 675 c79-80GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 125:"After Clause 24, insert the following new clause-"    ““COSTS UNDER PART ...
Lord Rotherwick | 675 c82GC (Link to this contribution) Do I understand that if money is given to the council in Wales to change the register into electroni...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c81GC (Link to this contribution) I was interested to hear what my noble friend said about targeting. Will he confirm that any financi...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c81GC (Link to this contribution) I shall just add to what the noble Lord, Lord Williams, said. We have an area, in Powys, that is sim...
Baroness Byford | 675 c81GC (Link to this contribution) I want to speak before the noble Baroness comes back on the matter. I am grateful to the Minister fo...
Lord Greaves | 675 c82GC (Link to this contribution) I am confused by the answers to the pertinent questions put by the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, but ...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c85GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, for moving the amendment, but I am bound to say that I ...
Lord Bach | 675 c83GC (Link to this contribution) I agree. There are some issues that are unresolved, although we have done our best to answer the que...
Lord Tyler | 675 c83-5GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 126:"Page 14, line 13, at end insert—" ““(   )   In preparing a proposed order...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 675 c90GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can add to the permutations of my noble friend Lord Greaves. One of the drivers for the Bi...
Baroness Byford | 675 c89GC (Link to this contribution) I come back to the first comment that the Minister made. I am not sure that I heard him correctly. I...
Lord Bach | 675 c92GC (Link to this contribution) Let me do my best. If areas have to be designated as SSSIs, that gives a hint as to whether they wou...
Earl Peel | 675 c90-1GC (Link to this contribution) Following what the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, has said, clearly English Nature or Natural England,...
Viscount Allenby of Megiddo | 675 c93GC (Link to this contribution) Before calling Amendment No. 127, I have to inform the Committee that if this amendment were to be a...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c93-4GC (Link to this contribution) It may be useful to the Committee if I speak to Amendment No. 128 in my name. It is grouped with tha...
Earl Peel | 675 c96GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord used an interesting word. He said ““majority””. This is the first time that word has ...
Lord Bach | 675 c96-7GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Earl. As I said the word, I thought ““This is the first time that I have ...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 675 c105GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 135:"Page 14, line 39, at end insert—" ““(   )   A commons association shall, ...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c103GC (Link to this contribution) I shall write to the noble Lord if I am wrong, but my understanding is that there is nothing between...
Lord Greaves | 675 c103-4GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister has just given the assurance that the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, was asking for, but I...
Duke of Montrose | 675 c107-8GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 136:"Page 15, line 2, leave out ““authority must”” and insert ““authorities must...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c102-3GC (Link to this contribution) As the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, said, Amendment No. 132 would enable an existing commoners associati...
Baroness Byford | 675 c101GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that. Obviously, we cannot divide in Grand Committee, so I have no option b...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c121-2GC (Link to this contribution) Before I discuss Amendment No. 147, I refer to the Animals Act 1971 in view of the discussion that h...
Lord Greaves | 675 c124GC (Link to this contribution) I am asking the question, rather than saying anything. There is clearly an interaction between sheep...
Lord Bach | 675 c128GC (Link to this contribution) If I have not responded to the noble Earl, I apologise. Let me try to respond to the noble Baroness....
Earl Peel | 675 c127-8GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness’s comments have jogged my memory. The other day when we were having the debate in...
Baroness Byford | 675 c128GC (Link to this contribution) I know that it is late, so I will not press the matter. Perhaps the Minister and his team can look a...
Lord Bach | 675 c128GC (Link to this contribution) I think that I have answered the noble Baroness, but I will try and do so again. I made it clear in ...
Earl of Caithness | 675 c115GC (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister expand a little on that? My noble friend the Duke of Montrose and the noble Lord, ...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c113-4GC (Link to this contribution) It might be for the convenience of the Committee if I spoke now rather than opposing the Question th...
Baroness Byford | 675 c113GC (Link to this contribution) That is interesting. I think the noble Lord is well able to bat for himself, but I understand that w...
Lord Bach | 675 c116-8GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 142:"Page 16, line 11, leave out subsections (1) and (2) and insert—" ““(1)   ...
Baroness Byford | 675 c68GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the Minister and beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, wi...
Baroness Byford | 675 c67GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for clarifying that point. I will look at Hansard from yesterday and note the c...
Baroness Pitkeathley | 675 c67GC (Link to this contribution) I call Amendment No. 106. Schedule 1 [Rectification of mistakes etc under the 1965 Act]:
Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c68GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 110:"Page 32, line 7, leave out paragraph 2." The noble Lord said: I want to ra...
Baroness Byford | 675 c71-2GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 117:"Page 12, line 20, leave out ““person”” and insert ““commons registration au...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c73-4GC (Link to this contribution) Subsection (7) permits regulations to enable the Church Commissioners to act with respect to land or...
Duke of Montrose | 675 c74GC (Link to this contribution) That reply is certainly of interest. One would have thought that the Church Commissioners already ha...
Lord Rotherwick | 675 c74-5GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 122A:"Page 13, line 21, leave out ““may”” and insert ““shall””" The noble Lord ...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c75-6GC (Link to this contribution) I speak to Amendment No. 124, which is in this group. I draw the Committee’s attention to the diffic...
Lord Bach | 675 c79GC (Link to this contribution) I hope I did not say that. I do not think I did.
Lord Bach | 675 c81-2GC (Link to this contribution) I shall do my best to answer some of those questions. The noble Baroness asked about ring-fencing. W...
Lord Bach | 675 c80-1GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 125 gives us a chance to have some debate about costs. In general terms, we expect per...
Viscount Ullswater | 675 c85GC (Link to this contribution) I do not often find myself in agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Williams, but on this occasion I d...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 675 c83GC (Link to this contribution) That would be very helpful. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by le...
Lord Bach | 675 c87-9GC (Link to this contribution) This is the first debate on Part 2 of the Bill. It has been a very good debate on an important topic...
Lord Greaves | 675 c89-90GC (Link to this contribution) I am sure that that last comment is absolutely right, as a passionate supporter of devolution and mo...
Lord Bach | 675 c92GC (Link to this contribution) We have no set idea how many. That is an impossible question to answer at this stage. If we had such...
Lord Inglewood | 675 c95GC (Link to this contribution) I support those who have underlined the importance of localism, if I can put it that way, in the est...
Lord Bach | 675 c97GC (Link to this contribution) ““Substantial”” does not have to be a majority, so it can be a minority.
Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c97GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 129:"Page 14, line 26, leave out paragraph (a)." The noble Lord said: It may be...
Earl Peel | 675 c98GC (Link to this contribution) I understand where my noble friend is coming from on this and I can support it up to a point. I agre...
Lord Bach | 675 c98-9GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that my noble friend will forgive me if I do not return to the arguments that we had in the u...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c105GC (Link to this contribution) I heard what the Minister and the noble Earl said. Some commons associations feel disadvantaged in t...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c110GC (Link to this contribution) I can reassure the noble Baroness. As she said, the draft constitution guidance is being circulated....
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 675 c109-10GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 137:"Page 15, line 4, at end insert—" ““(   )   Regulations under subsection (...
Lord Bach | 675 c108-9GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 136 requires the Secretary of State and the National Assembly for Wales to agree on re...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 675 c110GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for her reply. With the proviso that she has given of the parallel with local g...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c101-2GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 132:"After Clause 26, insert the following new clause—"    ““TRANSFORMATION TO...
Earl Peel | 675 c122-3GC (Link to this contribution) I listened with great interest to the debate. I congratulate my noble friend Lord Caithness on havin...
Lord Rotherwick | 675 c124-5GC (Link to this contribution) I hope I have not got this wrong, but in Amendment No. 142, which the Minister introduced and for wh...
Baroness Byford | 675 c127GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his comments on our contributions. Will he confirm—I think he nearly did—th...
Lord Bach | 675 c112GC (Link to this contribution) It is a draft constitution. As I said, it will be open to consultation before a final version is put...
Lord Bach | 675 c111-2GC (Link to this contribution) I will do my best to enlighten my noble friend. We think that it will make it much easier for common...
Lord Bach | 675 c114-5GC (Link to this contribution) The amendments make small changes to the illustrative lists of terms which can be included in the st...
Duke of Montrose | 675 c113GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 139:"Page 15, line 40, at end insert ““from monies owned by the commons associat...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c113GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to intervene. I know that my noble friend does not need my defence, but I am coming to hi...
Earl of Caithness | 675 c115GC (Link to this contribution) That was my first question; the second was on the running.
Lord Bach | 675 c115GC (Link to this contribution) Was the noble Earl’s question about the setting up of commons associations? Did I hear him correctly...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 675 c115GC (Link to this contribution) While the Minister consults for a moment, I would like to preview some of the amendments that we wil...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c115GC (Link to this contribution) I do not wish to intervene—I am sure that my noble friend is preparing a response to the noble Earl—...
Lord Bach | 675 c130GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 148:"Page 16, line 16, leave out from ““association”” to ““include”” in line 17 ...
Lord Bach | 675 c130GC (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until Wednesday 9 November at 3.30 pm. ...
Earl of Caithness | 675 c130GC (Link to this contribution) I am sure the Committee is grateful for the very full and detailed replies the Minister has given. W...
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