UK Parliament / Open data

Commons Bill [HL]

Debate on bills and Committee proceeding on Tuesday, 25 October 2005, in the House of Lords.
Commons Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage first day. Grand Committee off the floor of the House (Moses Room). Clauses 1, 2, 4, 5, 10-13 agreed to. Clauses 3, 6-9 agreed to as amended.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

674 c265-322GC 

Session

2005-06

Department

Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
Committee of the Whole House (HL)

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords Grand Committee

Related items

Commons Bill (HL). Explanatory Notes HL Bill 11-EN also published.
Monday, 27 June 2005
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Baroness Byford | 674 c266GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that answer. The amendment was really for clarification. On reading through...
Earl Peel | 674 c304-5GC (Link to this contribution) I want to seek two points of clarification. My noble friend Lord Rotherwick is right that there is a...

Show all contributions (162)
Lord Bach | 674 c302GC (Link to this contribution) Natural England could lease back the rights to farmers if there was under-grazing. Its involvement i...
Lord Bach | 674 c303GC (Link to this contribution) I believe that English Nature, as it now is—it will become Natural England—has a number of different...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 674 c303GC (Link to this contribution) For the record, that is what I was suggesting. I was suggesting that it is bad use of public money w...
Lord Bach | 674 c303GC (Link to this contribution) My point is that in other cases the body may not have the power to do something in the same way that...
Lord Bach | 674 c293-5GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 24:"Page 4, line 14, at end insert ““or the register falls to be amended under s...
Lord Bach | 674 c292GC (Link to this contribution) At present, no one would be able to say that to the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, even if they...
Lord Greaves | 674 c290GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 20 in this group stands in my name. I apologise to the Minister that I had to, as we u...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 674 c281GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 8:"Page 3, line 12, leave out paragraph (b)." The noble Lord said: In moving Am...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 674 c274-5GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 7:"After Clause 4, insert the following new clause—"    ““COMMONS COMMISSIONER...
Earl Peel | 674 c272GC (Link to this contribution) I want to speak briefly to the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Livsey. I declare an interes...
Baroness Byford | 674 c271-2GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for introducing Amendment No. 4. By the end of our consideration, he will reali...
Lord Bach | 674 c271GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 4:"Page 2, line 15, leave out from ““may”” to end of line 18 and insert—" ““(a...
Lord Bach | 674 c270-1GC (Link to this contribution) The amendments are about the position of persons who hold the lease of rights of common in gross. Am...
Baroness Byford | 674 c317-8GC (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 11 agreed to. Claus...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 674 c318GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 43:"Page 6, line 19, leave out paragraph (a)." The noble Lord said: Again, this...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 674 c310GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend for his explanations. We will see whether they are entirely satisfa...
Earl Peel | 674 c312GC (Link to this contribution) Before we agree to Clause 9 standing part, will the Minister be so kind as to answer one question th...
Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 674 c313GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps it would be helpful just if I read out that bit of the rules:"““Provided that there is at le...
Lord Bach | 674 c306-7GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has asked big questions, which arise out of the debate. They will be part of our cons...
Lord Bach | 674 c321-2GC (Link to this contribution) I have done my best so far as the amendment is concerned. I am told that the answer to the question ...
Baroness Byford | 674 c322GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Jopling. I am sure that he is one of the few people in the Roo...
Lord Bach | 674 c322GC (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until Tuesday 1 November at 3.30 pm.
Lord Bach | 674 c314-6GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for moving the amendment. It would require that any transfer of ...
Lord Bach | 674 c318GC (Link to this contribution) This is obviously a probing amendment by my noble friend. We believe it is essential that regulation...
Baroness Byford | 674 c317GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister very much for his full answer. My noble friend will read Hansard and will refle...
Lord Bach | 674 c317GC (Link to this contribution) I hoped that I had made that clear. We would consult on the issue after Royal Assent. I was not hidi...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 674 c318GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Bach | 674 c319-20GC (Link to this contribution) Dare I admit that I sometimes have difficulty in defending everything that the Government do, althou...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 674 c319GC (Link to this contribution) I put my name to the amendment because it is a reasonable thing for my noble friend to discuss. The ...
Lord Bach | 674 c310GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness is right; it is not defined in the Bill. It is our intention to require consultat...
Duke of Montrose | 674 c311GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for taking such trouble in answering the question; it required some ex...
Baroness Byford | 674 c312-3GC (Link to this contribution) I raised the question earlier in our discussions that there have been so many amendments to Clause 9...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 674 c312GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has a really good point, because the guidance for commoners associations that are cla...
Baroness Byford | 674 c313GC (Link to this contribution) In that case, I apologise to the Committee. When we took a Bill through before—I think it was the Wa...
Viscount Ullswater | 674 c310GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister said, I think, that if Natural England acquires rights, they are no longer severed. Can...
Viscount Ullswater | 674 c308GC (Link to this contribution) I can see that the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, is really a probing amendmen...
Lord Bach | 674 c307GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 31:"Page 4, line 37, at end insert ““; or" (   )   any commons association”” ...
Viscount Allenby of Megiddo | 674 c265GC (Link to this contribution) Before I put the Question that the Title be postponed, I remind your Lordships of two points of proc...
Lord Bach | 674 c265-6GC (Link to this contribution) I start by thanking the noble Baroness for her kind remarks. I preface what I have to say on this am...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 674 c304GC (Link to this contribution) I want to point out to the Minister that in Wales there is a precursor situation in which the nation...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 674 c305GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend, but in all the registers for Powys County Council that I ha...
Baroness Byford | 674 c305GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister has kindly suggested that he wants to consider the discussions that we have had this af...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 674 c305GC (Link to this contribution) That is not the case in the registers that I have looked at.
Earl of Caithness | 674 c299GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, am concerned about subsections (3)(a) and (b). Why are Natural England and the Countryside C...
Earl Peel | 674 c300GC (Link to this contribution) In extolling the virtues of Clause 9, it also escaped my mind to raise the ability of English Nature...
Lord Bach | 674 c300-2GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to Members of the Committee. I thought that the debate on this might last a little lon...
Lord Rotherwick | 674 c302GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is making the case for Natural England to buy those severance rights in order to help...
Lord Bach | 674 c302GC (Link to this contribution) There are still examples of over-grazing, which is why Natural England, or English Nature as it now ...
Lord Tyler | 674 c302-3GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. Will he indicate whether in the particular case of Dartmoor—as he kno...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 674 c303GC (Link to this contribution) First, I must apologise to the Committee for having missed the first part of the debate, but I was a...
Earl of Caithness | 674 c303-4GC (Link to this contribution) Would it not be fairer and more sensible to give the commons association or the owner the first opti...
Viscount Allenby of Megiddo | 674 c293GC (Link to this contribution) We have a Division, so we shall adjourn for 10 minutes. [The Sitting was suspended for a Division i...
Lord Bach | 674 c295GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Duke for his comments. The question of whether the use of land is for agr...
Viscount Allenby of Megiddo | 674 c284GC (Link to this contribution) Before calling Amendment No. 10, I have to inform the Committee that, were it to be agreed, I could ...
Earl of Caithness | 674 c281GC (Link to this contribution) I had every confidence that the Minister as a lawyer would be able to answer my simple question. Cl...
Earl of Caithness | 674 c280GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 5. Subsection (3) states:"““This Part shall not be taken to apply to””." Is there significan...
Earl of Caithness | 674 c280GC (Link to this contribution) I have a quick point on which I hope that the Minister, as a lawyer, can enlighten me. Why is there ...
Lord Tyler | 674 c277-8GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may respond to what the Minister has just said about the amendment moved by my noble frien...
Lord Bach | 674 c280GC (Link to this contribution) It might have that power in appropriate cases, but we would not expect or wish it to happen. Perhaps...
Baroness Byford | 674 c275GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 121, which is tabled in my name, is contained in this group. If it is convenient, I sh...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 674 c271GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to my noble friend. As he recognised, there is a serious point here. I understand...
Lord Bach | 674 c267-8GC (Link to this contribution) On behalf of the whole Committee, I wish to say how much we welcome the presence of my noble friend ...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 674 c267GC (Link to this contribution) As a former MP for Radnorshire, and knowing the noble Lord and the exact site of his common, I suppo...
Baroness Byford | 674 c321GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister was kind enough to explain his interpretation of the reason behind my amendment, but I ...
Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 674 c322GC (Link to this contribution) As we are approaching 7.30 pm, it would not be appropriate to start another amendment. The Committee...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 674 c314GC (Link to this contribution) I agree with the amendment. It would tidy things up substantially. We would know exactly where we we...
Viscount Ullswater | 674 c316-7GC (Link to this contribution) I compliment the Minister on his approach to the matter. Certainly from representations to me, it se...
Baroness Byford | 674 c318-9GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 44:"Page 6, line 25, leave out subsection (3)." The noble Baroness said: This i...
Lord Bach | 674 c318GC (Link to this contribution) Yes. The noble Lord is right. I was talking about the English situation.
Lord Jopling | 674 c319GC (Link to this contribution) That is right. There were others. I listened to what the noble Baroness said about the rights to cut...
Lord Jopling | 674 c319GC (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister clarify something? I am displaying my total ignorance over this. My noble friend L...
Baroness Byford | 674 c310GC (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister consider that it should be written in the Bill and not just hoped for or required ...
Lord Bach | 674 c310GC (Link to this contribution) As I understand it, the Bill leaves it to establishment orders to set up the consultation, but of co...
Duke of Montrose | 674 c310GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 37:"Page 5, line 25, leave out subsection (10)." The noble Duke said: This is i...
Lord Bach | 674 c310-1GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 9 prohibits the severance of rights of common attached to land. Subsection (10) makes provisi...
Baroness Byford | 674 c307-8GC (Link to this contribution) I rise to speak to Amendment No. 36, which is linked with Amendment No. 35 of the noble Lord, Lord W...
Lord Bach | 674 c308-10GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 35 would remove the power of the Secretary of State or in Wales, the National Assembly...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 674 c266-7GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 2:"Page 1, line 11, after ““register”” insert ““the ownership of and the””" The...
Lord Bach | 674 c305GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend has found an exception in this particular case.
Lord Tyler | 674 c298GC (Link to this contribution) I strongly support Amendment No. 30. The commoners and commons associations in the south west of Eng...
Earl Peel | 674 c298-9GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may say a few words on my noble friend Lord Inglewood’s amendment, which was moved by my n...
Baroness Byford | 674 c299-300GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise if I missed something earlier. As regards my Amendment No. 32, to which I have spoken, I...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 674 c300GC (Link to this contribution) This debate allows me to ask a question which properly is a stand-part question, but, nevertheless, ...
Lord Bach | 674 c304GC (Link to this contribution) I have heard the strength of feeling on this issue and I hope that it will be appropriate for me to ...
Baroness Byford | 674 c296-7GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for speaking to his various amendments, and am particularly grateful that the G...
Lord Bach | 674 c292-3GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 13:"Page 3, line 18, leave out subsection (3) and insert—" ““(3)   The creatio...
Duke of Montrose | 674 c295GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation of some of these amendments. We took it that Amend...
Lord Bach | 674 c295GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 26:"Page 4, line 22, leave out ““land”” and insert ““the land to which they atta...
Lord Bach | 674 c292GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl is right. On Question, amendment agreed to. [Amendment No. 12 not moved.]
Earl Peel | 674 c292GC (Link to this contribution) And presumably it applies to the owner as well?
Earl of Caithness | 674 c292GC (Link to this contribution) I think the noble Lord has answered another question that I had in mind, which was to my noble frien...
Lord Bach | 674 c290-2GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this group. I shall do my best to respond. I und...
Lord Rotherwick | 674 c287-8GC (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend Lady Byford. I am sure that at a future date we shall have the debate abou...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 674 c288GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may correct the noble Earl. I am allowed to graze six horses instead of 41 ewes; so you ca...
Earl of Caithness | 674 c288GC (Link to this contribution) I thought that the noble Lord had given away 40 of his ewes and kept the right for one himself. He n...
Lord Bach | 674 c284-5GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 11:"Page 3, line 15, leave out ““as common land or””" The noble Lord said: This...
Lord Bach | 674 c283-4GC (Link to this contribution) As the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, said, his amendment would ensure that rights of common could contin...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 674 c282GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to my noble friend. I am sure he will be aware that in this House and in another ...
Lord Greaves | 674 c282-3GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 9:"Page 3, line 12, at end insert ““, or" (c)   by being acquired over land by...
Lord Greaves | 674 c278-9GC (Link to this contribution) I want to speak in passing in support my noble friend’s amendment, but largely to support the amendm...
Lord Greaves | 674 c279-80GC (Link to this contribution) The second part of the subsection appears to allow the appropriate national authority to take away a...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 674 c280GC (Link to this contribution) I was intrigued by a number of points the Minister made in response to my Amendment No. 7. I thank m...
Lord Bach | 674 c273-4GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that I am not, but I will certainly be told from behind me if I am. I certainly do not intend...
Lord Bach | 674 c275-7GC (Link to this contribution) Amendments Nos. 7 and 14 would give the commons commissioners a new lease of life, effectively, and ...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 674 c271GC (Link to this contribution) I propose Amendment No. 6. It is the first amendment that I propose, and I thank the Minister and hi...
Viscount Allenby of Megiddo | 674 c271GC (Link to this contribution) Before calling Amendment No. 4, I have to inform the Committee that if this amendment is agreed to I...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 674 c269GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful again to my noble friend. I understand that claims on the commons registry of own...
Baroness Byford | 674 c268GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister in response to the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, said that there was a transition...
Lord Bach | 674 c321GC (Link to this contribution) No, I do not think that I would, to be honest.
Lord Tyler | 674 c317GC (Link to this contribution) I think that I understood the Minister’s full explanation, but I have some misgivings. One of the ma...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 674 c318GC (Link to this contribution) I take it that the National Assembly for Wales has the right to make its own regulations without the...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 674 c318GC (Link to this contribution) Can we expect some sort of consultation before the regulations are issued?
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 674 c320-1GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness raised a very interesting point. The Minister cited as examples abandonment or sa...
Baroness Byford | 674 c310GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister talked about the enforcement of rules and referred us to Clause 33(2). He indicated tha...
Lord Bach | 674 c311-2GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 38:"Page 5, line 37, leave out subsection (12)." The noble Lord said: Amendment...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 674 c312GC (Link to this contribution) In the case of Wales, that is an interesting question. The National Assembly for Wales has a good sc...
Lord Bach | 674 c312GC (Link to this contribution) They would be entitled in those circumstances to a single payment.
Lord Bach | 674 c312GC (Link to this contribution) Natural England would be entitled to its share of the single payment scheme if it acted as a farmer....
Baroness Byford | 674 c313-4GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 42:"Page 6, line 11, leave out from ““greens”” to end of line." The noble Baron...
Lord Bach | 674 c313GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 41:"After Clause 10, insert the following new clause—"    ““RE-ALLOCATION OF A...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 674 c307GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 35:"Page 5, line 3, leave out paragraph (a)." The noble Lord said: In moving Am...
Lord Greaves | 674 c306GC (Link to this contribution) There is another aspect: how will the price be determined? It is not an open market where anyone can...
Lord Bach | 674 c306GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord because he speaks with huge experience not just of the topic but of ...
Lord Jopling | 674 c305-6GC (Link to this contribution) I have listened patiently to the discussion for some time. I am sorry that I was unable to take part...
Baroness Byford | 674 c265GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 1:"Page 1, line 7, leave out ““or”” and insert ““and””" The noble Baroness said...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 674 c265GC (Link to this contribution) We on the Liberal Democrat Benches support the amendment. The matter needs to be clarified. It would...
Lord Bach | 674 c304GC (Link to this contribution) I have already gathered that there are strong feelings in the Committee. For that reason, I propose ...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 674 c304GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry not to let my noble friend off the hook, but the 1965 register is where I come from; that...
Lord Bach | 674 c304GC (Link to this contribution) I am not in a position to answer my noble friend on that point. I understand that the rule against s...
Lord Bach | 674 c305GC (Link to this contribution) As always, I have listened very carefully to what the noble Earl has said and taken his points on bo...
Earl Peel | 674 c302GC (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord agree with me that if Natural England and the owner have exactly the same object...
Lord Bach | 674 c303GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord speaks with great expertise on Dartmoor. I believe the answer to his question is no.
Duke of Montrose | 674 c304GC (Link to this contribution) Surely Natural England is worried about the areas which are SSSIs. If they are not SSSIs, surely it ...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 674 c297-8GC (Link to this contribution) In proposing Amendments Nos. 29 and 30, I take on board what the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, has ju...
Lord Bach | 674 c293GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 16 to 18:"Page 3, line 36, leave out ““as common land or””""Page 3, line 36, a...
Lord Bach | 674 c295-6GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 27:"Page 4, line 31, after ““except”” insert—" ““(a)   where the severance is ...
Viscount Ullswater | 674 c289-90GC (Link to this contribution) Amendments Nos. 19 and 21 affect the variation of rights of common. They say why, proposing that ““a...
Lord Tyler | 674 c289GC (Link to this contribution) I am delighted that my noble friend Lord Livsey of Talgarth has tabled Amendments Nos. 19 and 21 bec...
Earl Peel | 674 c288-9GC (Link to this contribution) I welcome the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Bach. It is absolutely right and proper that ...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 674 c290GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may respond to the points made about agricultural sustainability. That appears in the Bill...
Earl of Caithness | 674 c288GC (Link to this contribution) I very much hope that the words ““agricultural sustainability”” will not be in the Bill. I said so a...
Baroness Byford | 674 c286-7GC (Link to this contribution) I shall comment on the government amendments and on the amendment just spoken to by the noble Lord, ...
Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 674 c285-6GC (Link to this contribution) I have tabled Amendments Nos. 12, 19 and 21. Amendment No. 12 relates to the new rights of common cr...
Lord Greaves | 674 c284GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that detailed reply. As always, I will take away what the Minister said and consid...
Baroness Byford | 674 c283GC (Link to this contribution) The last question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, falls within the sentiments of an amendment...
Lord Bach | 674 c281-2GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 6(1) enables new rights of common to be created in certain circumstances. One of those circum...
Lord Bach | 674 c280-1GC (Link to this contribution) I only hope that when the noble Earl was a Minister some years ago no one ever asked him a question ...
Lord Bach | 674 c279GC (Link to this contribution) I shall try to deal with those two interventions as best I can. I ought to declare an interest to th...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 674 c273GC (Link to this contribution) It seems to me that in subsection (a) of his amendment, the Minister is conceding my point about own...
Lord Bach | 674 c273GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate. I begin by addressing the...
Viscount Ullswater | 674 c272-3GC (Link to this contribution) I merely rise to support the noble Lord’s amendment. Perhaps before I do that, I should make a decla...
Lord Bach | 674 c269GC (Link to this contribution) At the start of my reply to my noble friend’s amendment, I said that there was an ownership section ...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 674 c270GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 3:"Page 2, line 14, after ““owner”” insert ““or lessee””" The noble Lord said: ...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 674 c269-70GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to my noble friend. I am not entirely persuaded, but I will certainly read what h...
Lord Bach | 674 c269GC (Link to this contribution) I may be able to give my noble friend a little more comfort. I attempted to say that 2012 is a targe...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 674 c268-9GC (Link to this contribution) In so far as it goes, I am grateful to my noble friend for what he said, but it does not go very far...
Baroness Byford | 674 c267GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may ask whoever is looking after acoustics to increase the volume a little. I am lucky bec...

Subjects

Agriculture
Common land
Land use
Grazing land
Registration
Commons councils
Village greens

Legislation

Commons Bill (HL) 2005-06

Link

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