UK Parliament / Open data

Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Bill

Debate on bills and Committee proceeding on Thursday, 11 January 2007, in the House of Lords.
Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Bill. Lords Committee stage First day. Grand Committee off the floor of the House (Moses room). Clause 1 agreed to. Schedule 1 agreed to. New clause considered.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

688 c111-68GC 

Session

2006-07

Department

Home Office

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords Grand Committee

Related items

Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 19-En also published.
Tuesday, 5 December 2006
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 688 c153GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful, as ever, to the noble, Lord Wedderburn, for explaining his amendment, the intention b...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 688 c166-7GC (Link to this contribution) We have had a useful discussion on this amendment. I shall comment on one misconception that the nob...

Show all contributions (108)
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 688 c124GC (Link to this contribution) I cannot agree with the noble Lord’s explanation. Perhaps we can discuss the issue of Clause 2(1)(b)...
Lord Geddes | 688 c125GC (Link to this contribution) Before calling Amendment No. 2, and although I realise that the likelihood is virtually zero, I am o...
Lord Razzall | 688 c127GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble and learned Lord sits down, I make the point that Amendment No. 7, which stands in ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 688 c149-50GC (Link to this contribution) I suspect that at the end of all this we may end up dancing on the head of a pin. There is not a gre...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c159GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister has completely reassured me. He has not only given an undertaking; he has given an unde...
Lord Henley | 688 c156GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful for what the noble Lord has told me at some length. It seems that he could simply...
Lord Henley | 688 c144GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is arguing that a gross breach would be any breach if the word ““far”” were deleted. ...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 688 c143-4GC (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord agree—and this is relevant to what other noble Lords have said—that the standard...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 688 c142GC (Link to this contribution) This issue is very important; we are talking about a situation which could confront juries at any ti...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c148GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may respond, as a mere solicitor, to two exceedingly senior noble and learned Lords, and a...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 688 c148GC (Link to this contribution) I agree with the noble and learned Lord. Whenever a lawyer sees two different words in the same subs...
Lord Henley | 688 c164GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 19: 19: After Clause 1, insert the following new Clause— ““Offence by holding ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 688 c161-3GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful for the constructive tone of the discussion on this group of amendments. As that ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c159GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 16: 16: Clause 1, page 2, line 11, at end insert— ““( ) An organisation that i...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 688 c167-8GC (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Lord review what he has said about secondary liability? He said that secondary liabil...
Lord Henley | 688 c168GC (Link to this contribution) In the 28 or 29 years that I have been in this House, this is the first time that I have ever had th...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 688 c138GC (Link to this contribution) I will try to clarify the issue and explain where the phraseology comes from. The amendments would c...
Lord Razzall | 688 c136GC (Link to this contribution) I shall obviously read the Minister’s comments with care. My initial reaction is that the Government...
Lord Ramsbotham | 688 c137-8GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for raising this point—and I shall not play the buf...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 688 c138GC (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord not accept that the words ““or organised”” are very imprecise? Essentially he is...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 688 c140GC (Link to this contribution) I greatly regret that I have to oppose the amendment. Without the word ““far””, the subsection would...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 688 c139GC (Link to this contribution) That takes us away from the purpose of this part of the Bill. In a sense, we have covered some of th...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c139-40GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, for his support and to the noble Lord, Lord Ram...
Lord James of Blackheath | 688 c130-1GC (Link to this contribution) I have listened to this debate with mounting concern, because I see this from the point of view of h...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 688 c128GC (Link to this contribution) I heard the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, ask what the amendment adds. I have been ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c111GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 1: 1: Clause 1, page 1, line 3, after ““organisation”” insert ““including a pu...
Lord Ramsbotham | 688 c117-8GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may ask for enlightenment on one matter. I join all other noble Lords in expressing pleasu...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 688 c118-21GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for his opening remarks, which were very kindly addressed to my n...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 688 c121GC (Link to this contribution) May I take the Minister back to unincorporated associations, which are covered in his brief? For man...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 688 c121-2GC (Link to this contribution) We generally agree with that point, hence our caution. As I said, this is a developing area of law a...
Lord Razzall | 688 c123GC (Link to this contribution) I should like to clarify the Minister’s thinking. I do not want to press him too far on this but am ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c124GC (Link to this contribution) This has been an important debate, but I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Wedderburn, that it has bee...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c124-5GC (Link to this contribution) I was following Clause 3(2), which states: "““Any duty of care owed in respect of things done in the...
Lord Razzall | 688 c125GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 2: 2: Clause 1, page 1, line 3, leave out from ““if”” to end of line 4 and ins...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 688 c127GC (Link to this contribution) I draw attention to Amendment No. 7, which a number of bodies have asked us to consider. It would no...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 688 c153-4GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for this debate on the amendment. I am sorry that Amendment No. 32 was not formally li...
Lord Henley | 688 c152GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps before the Minister responds, I could say a few words. I am somewhat confused by the explana...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 688 c150GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 13: 13: Clause 1, page 2, line 4, at end insert ““, or (iii) the performance o...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 688 c155-6GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Henley, has very properly described the circumstances in which Amendment No. 14...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 688 c149GC (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Lord consider a further point that has not been made? There seems to be a substantial...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c149GC (Link to this contribution) I have already done so, and the dictionary does not give that answer. That is why I think there is a...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 688 c158GC (Link to this contribution) I shall not deal generally with the focus in the Bill on corporate liability which we shall come to ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c158GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has posed the question and answered it. He is quite right. It is only by asking that ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 688 c159GC (Link to this contribution) Hence my observation of the need for swift thought on this.
Baroness Turner of Camden | 688 c157GC (Link to this contribution) I have listened with a great deal of interest to the noble Lord. I wonder whether this has a particu...
Lord Henley | 688 c144GC (Link to this contribution) I do not accept that. The noble Lord is saying that if the word ““far”” were removed, any lapse woul...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 688 c143GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is right that this is very important. I am simply advocating that the Bill should rem...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 688 c142GC (Link to this contribution) I am delighted with the analogy given by the noble Lord, Lord Wedderburn. My mind was led to the lat...
Lord James of Blackheath | 688 c148-9GC (Link to this contribution) I put this point to my noble friend Lord Hunt because I thought he asked a question that went to the...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c146GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 11: 11: Clause 1, page 2, line 1, leave out ““substantial”” and insert ““signi...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 688 c147-8GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise to my noble friend, but I urge a little caution with regard to the amendment. Quite a go...
Lord James of Blackheath | 688 c144-5GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that noble Lords will forgive me as this is the first time that I have ever set foot in a Gra...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 688 c145-6GC (Link to this contribution) I have been somewhat entertained by the lawyers on this, but I think the majority of them have got i...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 688 c145GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may trespass on the goodwill of the Committee for a moment. In this Bill, we are adapting ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c163-4GC (Link to this contribution) Those were reassuring words, but again we are up against a pretty strict timetable. This Bill has be...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 688 c166GC (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to support the amendment moved so well by the noble Lord, Lord Henley. The noble Lord...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 688 c168GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Committee for its attention and diligence this afternoon. I apologise for any errors tha...
Lord Ramsbotham | 688 c138GC (Link to this contribution) I am happy to acknowledge that. As I say, I am not a lawyer, but when I first read the amendments I ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 688 c136GC (Link to this contribution) We are obviously happy to ensure that the Library has those notes and that they can be made availabl...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c136GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 3: 3: Clause 1, page 1, line 4, leave out ““or organised”” The noble Lord sai...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 688 c137GC (Link to this contribution) I support what has been said. Would my noble friend indicate whether he can rely on any precedent fo...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 688 c142GC (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Lord says that—and if that is what the Act told the judge to do, he would have...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 688 c139GC (Link to this contribution) Instead of the words ““or organisation””, will my noble friend agree to consider whether ““those who...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 688 c140-1GC (Link to this contribution) It is a question of language. I very rarely wish to dissent from a proposition of the noble and lear...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 688 c141-2GC (Link to this contribution) I simply wish to ask whether the noble Lord has actually ever heard a judge summing up before a jury...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 688 c133GC (Link to this contribution) As I have spoken once or twice on this matter, I shall make only a brief intervention. The noble Lor...
Lord Brennan | 688 c131-3GC (Link to this contribution) The creation by this House of a new offence of unlawful killing is a very serious step. The caution ...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 688 c128GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could say what has been worrying me about Amendment No. 4. The words that it adds to Claus...
Lord Razzall | 688 c128GC (Link to this contribution) I really cannot accept the noble and learned Lord’s point, which would apply equally to Clause 1(3)....
Lord Henley | 688 c127-8GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble and learned friend Lord Lyell for explaining why we would not want to supp...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 688 c115-6GC (Link to this contribution) I want to add a brief word in support of my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral. The key point in this ...
Lord Razzall | 688 c114-5GC (Link to this contribution) I wish to speak to the amendments in this group standing in my name and that of my noble friend Lord...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 688 c123GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord makes a perfectly reasonable and fair point. In essence, he has summarised the positi...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 688 c123GC (Link to this contribution) I do not want to detain the Committee, but it is a victim of atrocious grouping, which is our fault ...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 688 c117GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can ask the noble and learned Lord a question. We have here a rather oddly constructed Cro...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 688 c122GC (Link to this contribution) With regard to the list in Schedule 1, perhaps with the exception of the Prison Service and where lo...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 688 c124GC (Link to this contribution) I am happy to read very carefully and think some more about what the noble Lord said. I am not going...
Lord Geddes | 688 c127GC (Link to this contribution) I remind the Committee that groupings remain at all times informal and that it is entirely up to any...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 688 c126-7GC (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether it would be for the convenience of the Committee to consider what has been pro...
Lord Henley | 688 c154GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 14: 14: Clause 1, page 2, line 4, at end insert— ““( ) Where two or more organ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c150GC (Link to this contribution) I do not know which medieval philosopher referred to angels dancing on the head of a pin. I do not t...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c156GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 15: 15: Clause 1, page 2, line 9, at end insert— ““(5A) No part of this Act sh...
Lord Boyd of Duncansby | 688 c157-8GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord raises an important point. It is important to ensure that the prosecution has the ful...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 688 c157GC (Link to this contribution) I hope so. Perhaps I may explain this to the noble Baroness. I seek to keep all the existing legisla...
Lord Boyd of Duncansby | 688 c144GC (Link to this contribution) I hesitate to interrupt because there are lawyers on both sides. I am sure that the noble and learne...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 688 c144GC (Link to this contribution) I think that the words that he omits for consideration are those that precede it. The paragraph read...
Lord Henley | 688 c143GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can assist in this matter. I think I heard the noble Lord, Lord Wedderburn, say as an asid...
Lord Hoyle | 688 c143GC (Link to this contribution) I have not spoken before and I hate to come in when the lawyers are having such fun and telling stor...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 688 c149GC (Link to this contribution) Would it be possible to resolve the problem by consulting the Oxford English Dictionary? If we looke...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 688 c146GC (Link to this contribution) First, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to a most interesting, and sometimes amusing, de...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 688 c160-1GC (Link to this contribution) I speak to my own amendment in the group. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for the very good case ...
Lord Brennan | 688 c164-5GC (Link to this contribution) I welcome the amendment for several reasons. I shall take as an example the construction industry. I...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 688 c165-6GC (Link to this contribution) My query about this amendment is very similar to that of the noble Lord, Lord Brennan. There must pr...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 688 c133-6GC (Link to this contribution) I have listened with great interest to this debate. As ever, the lawyers have set my mind working on...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 688 c136GC (Link to this contribution) I have specifically in mind the judgment in open court of Mr Justice Turner when he stopped the case...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 688 c140GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 9: 9: Clause 1, page 1, line 21, leave out ““far”” The noble Baroness said: T...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 688 c129-30GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that the Committee will forgive me for intervening again briefly. There is a great deal of fo...
Lord Boyd of Duncansby | 688 c130GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, have been troubled by this aspect relating to senior management, for the same reasons as the...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 688 c128-9GC (Link to this contribution) I suggest that there is merit in the thinking behind the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Razzall,...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 688 c117GC (Link to this contribution) I take a somewhat different view on unincorporated associations. I entirely welcome the purpose behi...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 688 c116-7GC (Link to this contribution) I am happy to follow the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell, because I agree with him that the law s...
Lord Geddes | 688 c111GC (Link to this contribution) I shall not waste the Committee’s time regarding Divisions in the Chamber, since on Thursday they ar...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 688 c122-3GC (Link to this contribution) As I understand it, unincorporated bodies are largely covered at present because individuals can be ...

Subjects

Accountability
Armed forces
Death
Companies
Crown immunity
Corporate manslaughter
Liability
Health and safety
Exemptions
Government departments
Police
Prosecutions
Management
Public bodies
Negligence

Legislation

Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Bill 2005-06 to 2006-07

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
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