UK Parliament / Open data

Parliamentary Standards Bill

Debate on bills and Committee of the Whole House (HC) on Wednesday, 1 July 2009, in the House of Commons.
Parliamentary Standards Bill. Committee stage second day. Clause 6 disagreed to on question. Clauses 7 to 9 agreed to as amended. Clause 10 disagreed to on division (247 votes to 250). Bill reported as amended. Report stage debate. New clause 1 debated and withdrawn. Amendments made. Third reading. Agreed to on question and Bill passed. [Relevant Documents: Memorandum from the Audit Committees on the Parliamentary Standards Bill. Seventh report from the Justice Committee, Constitutional Reform and Renewal: Parliamentary Standards Bill, HC 791. Nineteenth report from the Joint Committee on Human Rights, Legislative Scrutiny: Parliamentary Standards Bill, HC 844. ]

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

495 c310-412 

Session

2008-09

Department

Leader of the House of Commons

Legislative stage

Committee stage, Third reading and Report stage

Procedure

Government defeats
New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Commons chamber

Related items

Parliamentary Standards Bill. Explanatory Notes Bill 121-EN also published.
Tuesday, 23 June 2009
Bills
House of Commons
Legislative scrutiny: Parliamentary Standards Bill. Human Rights Joint Select Committee nineteenth report with formal minutes and evidence.
Tuesday, 30 June 2009
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
House of Commons
Constitutional reform and renewal: Parliamentary Standards Billl. Justice Select Committee seventh report with formal minutes and evidence (HC 791-i not printed separately).
Tuesday, 30 June 2009
Parliamentary committees
House of Commons

Proceeding contributions

Lord Beith | 495 c393 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 7 is obviously necessary, but I am afraid that it will never be sufficient to disabuse sec...
John Redwood | 495 c393-4 (Link to this contribution) I want to highlight Government amendment 9, which the Justice Secretary did not explain. It is inter...

Show all contributions (291)
Jack Straw | 495 c394 (Link to this contribution) Let me explain that this relates to the definition clause and particularly to the tenure period for ...
John Redwood | 495 c394 (Link to this contribution) It is useful to have elicited that explanation and have it put on the record before the Bill goes to...
Bernard Jenkin | 495 c394 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 6, page 4, line 33, at end insert—
Speaker | 495 c394 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Lord Beith | 495 c395 (Link to this contribution) This is precisely the sort of amendment that needs measured and leisurely consideration. Although I ...
Lord Young of Cookham | 495 c393 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for Government amendment 7, which reproduces, at 10 times the length, the four words t...
Stuart Bell | 495 c395 (Link to this contribution) I wish to speak to amendment 1, which I tabled. It was never expected that the Bill would be retros...
Alan Duncan | 495 c391 (Link to this contribution) I therefore beg to ask leave to withdraw the clause. Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
Jack Straw | 495 c391 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 7, page 3, line 13, at end insert—
Alan Duncan | 495 c391 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Secretary of State for his comments. I suppose that I was trying to make a plea...
Jack Straw | 495 c391 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene, because now that we are no longer ...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c392 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the Government's amendments. Government amendment 7 clearly reflects the comments that wer...
Iain Duncan Smith | 495 c392 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. and learned Friend not agree that amendment 7 is a classic illustration of what happens...
Speaker | 495 c391-2 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Jack Straw | 495 c392 (Link to this contribution) Colleagues will find Government amendment 7 on page 1059 of the Order Paper. It makes it clear that ...
Robert Smith | 495 c393 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the fact that we have at least some time on Report in which to see some improvements and a...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c392 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely with my right hon. Friend. At some point in the next hour, we may or may not get Th...
Robert Smith | 495 c388 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan) makes an important point about the transition o...
John Redwood | 495 c388-9 (Link to this contribution) One of the many muddles that the Bill is getting Parliament into is the muddle over how staff will t...
Peter Bone | 495 c389 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend talks about the time question, but should the change not be delayed until after...
John Redwood | 495 c389 (Link to this contribution) Yes, and some of us made that point in previous debates, when it was more relevant. The relevance of...
Bernard Jenkin | 495 c387 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Without wishing to ask you what the rationale mi...
Speaker | 495 c387 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman is also a very experienced Member, and he is not going to get away with th...
Alan Duncan | 495 c388 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time. I wish to make reference to the significance ...
Lord Garnier | 495 c390 (Link to this contribution) It is a matter of regrettable record that in the past 18 months or so, this House in its various gui...
Jack Straw | 495 c390-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan) for raising this matter. It ma...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c386 (Link to this contribution) I assure the right hon. Gentleman that the necessary changes to the order of selection will take pla...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c386 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Sir Alan. I appreciate that we are about to embark on the Report sta...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c386 (Link to this contribution) Order. I think that the hon. Gentleman has got away with quite a bit there—on a point of order that ...
Lord Beith | 495 c386 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Sir Alan. I wonder whether I might give you notice that I am very happy that my...
Speaker | 495 c387 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is a very experienced Member and he knows that no explanation is given for the se...
William Cash | 495 c387 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. In 1993, Speaker Boothroyd gave a warning that, in respect ...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c387 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State said that he had no notice of the situation; no more did I. I am sure, howeve...
Jack Straw | 495 c404-5 (Link to this contribution) First, there is good evidence in a Modernisation Committee report from two years ago—that evidence c...
Jack Straw | 495 c405 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not. It is the House itself that has been in favour of not going late, as Members have b...
Gerald Howarth | 495 c405 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Alan Duncan | 495 c405 (Link to this contribution) Very nice try, but it does not wash. As someone who has run organisations and set them up, I appreci...
Jack Straw | 495 c405 (Link to this contribution) Others wish to speak, so I must deal with what is proposed. I endorse entirely the remarks of my hon...
Jack Straw | 495 c406 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way in a moment. I accept entirely that the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alan D...
Jack Straw | 495 c405 (Link to this contribution) That is not what the amendment says. It does not provide an opportunity to revisit the Act. It state...
Jack Straw | 495 c406 (Link to this contribution) The better way of handling the burden of what the hon. Gentleman says is for all parties to commit t...
Robert Smith | 495 c406 (Link to this contribution) The purpose of a sunset clause is to recognise the urgency of the legislation. Because it has been e...
David Winnick | 495 c406 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Mark Durkan | 495 c403 (Link to this contribution) That is what the hon. and learned Gentleman says, but when is another matter. Let us be clear: we ha...
Lord Garnier | 495 c403 (Link to this contribution) If the Act is good, we will re-pass it. If it is not, we will not.
Mark Durkan | 495 c402-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan) has made the point that sunset clauses are fami...
Iain Duncan Smith | 495 c403-4 (Link to this contribution) No, the hon. Gentleman has had his turn. I support my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton...
Mark Durkan | 495 c403 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Iain Duncan Smith | 495 c403 (Link to this contribution) I intend to be very brief indeed. I completely disagree with the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan...
Mark Durkan | 495 c403 (Link to this contribution) I want to finish and let other people speak. The situation is something of a hologram. We are saying...
Lynne Jones | 495 c404 (Link to this contribution) I would have attempted to intervene on the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr. D...
Jack Straw | 495 c404 (Link to this contribution) I was not sneering at the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan Smith). [Ho...
Stuart Bell | 495 c398 (Link to this contribution) Notwithstanding the short time available for this Bill, my right hon. Friend has been most understan...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c399 (Link to this contribution) The Justice Secretary heard what I said earlier, and I hope that he will be able to give some comfor...
Jack Straw | 495 c398-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for those words. Amendment 6 was tabled by the hon. Member for Nort...
Bernard Jenkin | 495 c401 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Secretary of State for not really advancing a single argument against my amendm...
Alan Duncan | 495 c401-2 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 5, in page 9, line 39, at end add—
Dominic Grieve | 495 c400 (Link to this contribution) I want to get on, but I think that I made the position quite clear. I see paid advocacy as bribery a...
Jack Straw | 495 c399-400 (Link to this contribution) I shall come to that. There was serious anxiety in the House. I feel frustrated, although I know tha...
Lord Beith | 495 c401 (Link to this contribution) The Lord Chancellor should keep in mind the advice of Speaker's Counsel, which was that the law on c...
Jack Straw | 495 c400-1 (Link to this contribution) On the regulation of the House, I accept what the hon. and learned Gentleman has said. However, the ...
Iain Duncan Smith | 495 c396 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to interrupt my right hon. Friend's train of thought, but, having been a member of the...
Jack Straw | 495 c398 (Link to this contribution) I shall go through the various points that have been raised. I can first tell my hon. Friend the Mem...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c398 (Link to this contribution) I, too, wish to see the House move on as quickly as possible to the sunset clause, but the points ra...
Andrew Dismore | 495 c397-8 (Link to this contribution) I rise to speak on amendments 4 and 3, as realistically this is the only occasion when I can raise t...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 495 c396-7 (Link to this contribution) Well, I slightly resent that intervention actually, as I think this is an important matter. Although...
Lord Cormack | 495 c396 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with the points my right hon. Friend is making, but is he aware that the next busin...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 495 c396 (Link to this contribution) That is a helpful intervention. I have no objection to the new commissioner looking into matters of ...
Lord Beith | 495 c396 (Link to this contribution) I understand the position to be that the commissioner will be unable to adduce proceedings in Parlia...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 495 c396 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention because that is exactly my experience. We have all been on the r...
Jack Straw | 495 c373 (Link to this contribution) I will take one last question.
Dominic Grieve | 495 c372 (Link to this contribution) If the Secretary of State looks back at the Scotland Bill, he will find—my memory goes back that far...
Jack Straw | 495 c372 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman makes a lawyer's point about section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006 not bein...
William Cash | 495 c372 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) raised a question earlier about the co...
Jack Straw | 495 c372-3 (Link to this contribution) I do not take the view that they were wrong, but there is self-evidently a difference of emphasis on...
Jack Straw | 495 c371-2 (Link to this contribution) I promised that I would give way to the hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield, and I want to put ...
Jack Straw | 495 c372 (Link to this contribution) I give way first to the hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield and then to the hon. Member for Sto...
Gerald Howarth | 495 c386 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Sir Alan. Notwithstanding the splendid outcome of that Division, which surely r...
Lord Garnier | 495 c374-5 (Link to this contribution) I wish to clarify a point that I made in an intervention on my hon. and learned Friend the Member fo...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c375 (Link to this contribution) I wish to withdraw amendment 38 and put amendment 39 to the vote, as I think that amendment goes to ...
Alan Duncan | 495 c374 (Link to this contribution) There is a crucial difference between declaration and registration. Declaration means an oral declar...
Angus Robertson | 495 c374 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the shadow Leader of the House for explaining his view, but I do not agree with him...
Angus Robertson | 495 c373-4 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to be able to contribute, although time is running out. I want to speak to amendment 10...
Jack Straw | 495 c373 (Link to this contribution) I will not, because I know that the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) wishes to speak. I assu...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c373 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?
Jack Straw | 495 c373 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman and his Committee for their report. As he will know, ...
Lord Beith | 495 c373 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Secretary of State, because this is a crucial point. Surely he accepts that it ...
Lord Tyrie | 495 c407-8 (Link to this contribution) There are three good reasons why we need a sunset clause. First, as the Secretary of State said, thi...
Lord Cormack | 495 c408 (Link to this contribution) This is a monstrous Bill, which has been pushed through with indecent haste. If we had taken the pro...
Lord Beith | 495 c407 (Link to this contribution) While my hon. Friend is offering thanks, I wonder whether he will allow me to encourage him to thank...
Robert Smith | 495 c407 (Link to this contribution) Had my right hon. Friend not intervened on me, those two items would have been next on my list. Thos...
Jack Straw | 495 c406 (Link to this contribution) —or as part of a second Bill. I give way to my hon. Friend, and there are others who wish to speak ...
David Winnick | 495 c406 (Link to this contribution) If a sunset clause were agreed to, would there not be a cynical feeling among the public, which the ...
Speaker | 495 c406 (Link to this contribution) Order. I realise there are many people wanting to speak.
Robert Smith | 495 c406 (Link to this contribution) In the brief time that is left, I want to associate Liberal Democrat Members with the thanks to the ...
Jack Straw | 495 c406 (Link to this contribution) I accept entirely what my hon. Friend says on that point. Although there are real preoccupations for...
Speaker | 495 c407;495 c406 (Link to this contribution) I am operating under the existing programme motion, and there is no opportunity for me to change it....
John Redwood | 495 c406 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. As the Justice Secretary has said that he likes to sit la...
Speaker | 495 c407 (Link to this contribution) While we are debating these points of order, the clock is ticking away. I have already ruled that th...
Lord Cormack | 495 c407 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Do you realise that there is a seething anger ...
Alan Duncan | 495 c311 (Link to this contribution) We are, of course, pleased that the Government have decided to remove clause 6. However, we wish to ...
Alistair Carmichael | 495 c311 (Link to this contribution) As I said on Second Reading, it is good that the Secretary of State will remove clause 6, but when h...
Lord Young of Cookham | 495 c310 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Government for adding their name to my amendment proposing the deletion of clau...
William Cash | 495 c310-1 (Link to this contribution) I am sure everyone will be relieved that the Government have shown such good sense. I congratulate m...
Lord Cormack | 495 c310 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Sir Michael. There has been a most extraordinary development since we met yeste...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c310 (Link to this contribution) As far as the Chair is concerned, our proceedings must simply follow the order that is set out befor...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c310 (Link to this contribution) We begin with amendment No. 63, with which it will be convenient to deal with new clause 4 and claus...
Viscount Hailsham | 495 c319 (Link to this contribution) I can well understand that it may be necessary to require discovery of documents, but as clause 7(3)...
Viscount Hailsham | 495 c318 (Link to this contribution) Is there not also merit in thinking about whether we should have some procedure for appeal, so that ...
Andrew Dismore | 495 c318 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. and learned Gentleman anticipates my new clause 6, which will be discussed when we re...
Lord Beith | 495 c318-9 (Link to this contribution) My name is attached to new clause 11 and I support it strongly for the reasons cogently adduced by t...
Lord Young of Cookham | 495 c312 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 9, page 4, line 35, at end insert—
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c313 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Lord Young of Cookham | 495 c313-5 (Link to this contribution) As drafted, clause 7 does not provide an opportunity for Members to refer their own cases to the new...
Bernard Jenkin | 495 c315-6 (Link to this contribution) I will not detain the House for long, and I apologise for not having been present at the beginning o...
Jack Straw | 495 c312 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for recognition of the fact that I have sought to respond to proposals from all parts ...
Alistair Carmichael | 495 c321 (Link to this contribution) I take the hon. Gentleman's point and I do not want to labour it because I do not know whether he wi...
Viscount Hailsham | 495 c321 (Link to this contribution) Although one might argue about the legalities, surely the proper position is to say that the hon. Me...
Alistair Carmichael | 495 c321 (Link to this contribution) I, too, shall endeavour not to detain the Committee overlong. We have before us a range of amendment...
Bernard Jenkin | 495 c321 (Link to this contribution) I did not say "informal legal advice", but "advice". In fact, my amendment referred to "advice and c...
Lord Beith | 495 c319 (Link to this contribution) That is a sensible point and further illustrates the need for much more measured and careful conside...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 495 c319 (Link to this contribution) I support these amendments, especially those tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for North-Wes...
Viscount Hailsham | 495 c320 (Link to this contribution) It is not only as my right hon. Friend understands the point, but as the Clerk understands it. In hi...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 495 c320-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend for pointing that out. I think that that gives it ...
Lord Cormack | 495 c319 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that, because of the timetable, we did not debate, and therefore do ...
Lord Cormack | 495 c323 (Link to this contribution) Some of us want to take part in it.
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c323 (Link to this contribution) Order. Let me make it clear that there is no reason why hon. Members may not take part. Those hon. M...
Alistair Carmichael | 495 c321-2 (Link to this contribution) That is one of the most basic norms of natural justice, and once we go down the route that the Gover...
Andrew Dismore | 495 c322 (Link to this contribution) Under the existing arrangements between the commissioner and the Standards and Privileges Committee,...
Alistair Carmichael | 495 c322 (Link to this contribution) It is a question of checks and balances. The system at the moment is reasonably well balanced becaus...
Mark Durkan | 495 c322-3 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young) expressed the wish that his roll w...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c367-8 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely with my hon. and learned Friend. Indeed, although I know we are supposed to be in a...
Lord Garnier | 495 c367 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. and learned Friend share my surprise at the intervention by the Secretary of State on S...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c366-7 (Link to this contribution) We now have to consider the criminal offences that the Government think it right to create and to im...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c368-9 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right. I intended to discuss that when considering the third offence, which re...
Andrew Dismore | 495 c368 (Link to this contribution) Is not the position compounded by the fact that we effectively have no de minimis rule in relation t...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c368 (Link to this contribution) Yes, the right hon. Gentleman makes a good point, which features in the comments of the Speaker's Co...
Lord Beith | 495 c368 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman must read clause 9 in conjunction with clause 10, one of the conseque...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c362 (Link to this contribution) The time for the amendments is now. It is our one opportunity to make these decisions. Every Member ...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c366 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 38, page 6, line 22, leave out subsection (2).
Jack Straw | 495 c361 (Link to this contribution) I apologise—perhaps it was the hon. Member for Gainsborough.
Jack Straw | 495 c361 (Link to this contribution) I listen to him all the time, and I compliment him on what he said. However, there was a breach of t...
Lord Garnier | 495 c361 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman should listen to him more often.
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c361 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. and learned Gentleman. I myself was about to suggest to the right hon. Gen...
Lord Garnier | 495 c361 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Sir Alan. I wonder whether you would advise me. We are very short of time but w...
Mark Durkan | 495 c361 (Link to this contribution) May we return to the most germane point, which relates to amendment 32 and the accompanying amendmen...
Jack Straw | 495 c361 (Link to this contribution) I will bring my remarks to a close, Sir Alan. Certain consequences follow, like night follows the d...
Jack Straw | 495 c361 (Link to this contribution) I cannot accept the amendments at the moment. I am certainly ready to give them active consideration...
Jack Straw | 495 c361 (Link to this contribution) Nor is it an unintended consequence. I am ready to accept the amendment that the right hon. Member f...
Jack Straw | 495 c371 (Link to this contribution) Just a second, if I may. As for subsection (2), the second limb of clause 9, this House has to my a...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c371 (Link to this contribution) Will the Justice Secretary give way?
William Cash | 495 c371 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Lord Garnier | 495 c370 (Link to this contribution) I hesitate to disagree with my hon. and learned Friend, but clause 9 is appalling and unnecessary. J...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c370 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that anything in the Bill will make prosecutions more speedy; indeed, it will make no...
Jack Straw | 495 c370-1 (Link to this contribution) Given the time, I will be as fast as I can. First, the hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c370 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I am not reaching a false conclusion. I hope that I have highlighted, as best I can, tho...
David Howarth | 495 c369 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the Government will say, in answer to the point made by the hon. Member for Hendon (M...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c369-70 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point. There are systems in place for ensuring that the Atto...
Mark Field | 495 c370 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with my hon. and learned Friend about clause 9. However, despite the recent furore,...
Bernard Jenkin | 495 c347 (Link to this contribution) I will endeavour to be as brief as possible, Mrs. Heal. I beg to move amendments 65, 66, 64—
Mark Durkan | 495 c346-7 (Link to this contribution) I fully agree. Indeed, I have supported a number of amendments and, even in this bunch, there are a ...
Robert Smith | 495 c346 (Link to this contribution) I can understand the hon. Gentleman's caution. In particular, he was right to remind the House of th...
Mark Durkan | 495 c346 (Link to this contribution) That is also why, if people think that we have to be cautious, because the legislation has been brou...
Lord Garnier | 495 c347 (Link to this contribution) Is not the short point that the only thing that stands between the people and arbitrary government i...
Bernard Jenkin | 495 c347 (Link to this contribution) I am out of practice again, Mrs. Heal. I wish to speak to amendments 65, 66, 64 and 67, which relate...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c347 (Link to this contribution) Order. Perhaps I should remind the hon. Gentleman that we are actually discussing amendment 32. He c...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c346 (Link to this contribution) It is very simple: if the hon. Gentleman reads the report of the Select Committee on Justice, he wil...
Mark Durkan | 495 c345-6 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point. None of us wants to do damage to the sovereignty of Parli...
Gerald Howarth | 495 c345 (Link to this contribution) We all understand the public anger, but we cannot simply have a knee-jerk reaction—I see the Justice...
Stuart Bell | 495 c349-51 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful, Mrs. Heal, for the opportunity to participate in the debate on what the hon. and lear...
Bernard Jenkin | 495 c348-9 (Link to this contribution) I will move on as swiftly as I can. My amendment 67 addresses the question of what should take prec...
Elfyn Llwyd | 495 c351 (Link to this contribution) When I speak about privilege, I do not do so as a member of any kind of club. It is the privilege of...
Robert Smith | 495 c352-3 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak briefly, because we must try to reach clause 10 somehow, although I fear that in view ...
Elfyn Llwyd | 495 c352 (Link to this contribution) That is absolutely true. If we meddle with parliamentary privilege we shall start a torrent of litig...
Jack Straw | 495 c348 (Link to this contribution) I am listening to the hon. Gentleman with some care, but if I may say so, I think he is making a bit...
Bernard Jenkin | 495 c347-8 (Link to this contribution) I wholeheartedly agree with my hon. and learned Friend. I would submit that, not by virtue of the er...
Jack Straw | 495 c348 (Link to this contribution) I thought we were on clause 8 as well.
Charles Walker | 495 c344 (Link to this contribution) When a Member is suspended, even for as little as two weeks, that can effectively end their politica...
Lord Young of Cookham | 495 c343-4 (Link to this contribution) The shadow of the guillotine is beginning to fall over our debate, so I will not follow up the very ...
Mark Durkan | 495 c345 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Nottingham, North (Mr. Allen) made some significant points, many of which arise ...
Lord Young of Cookham | 495 c344-5 (Link to this contribution) All we have are our reputations, which can be destroyed by a critical report from my Committee. That...
Graham Allen | 495 c342 (Link to this contribution) That is a measure of the fear with which Governments unnecessarily view this House. If we have a str...
John Redwood | 495 c342 (Link to this contribution) I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for his work over a sustained period to try to get the House to ...
Graham Allen | 495 c343 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to stray too far from the clause, but one day, when we have a self-respecting and self...
William Cash | 495 c342-3 (Link to this contribution) On the drafting of legislation, to which the hon. Gentleman has rightly referred, the evidence that ...
Graham Allen | 495 c342 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, and the louder the Government talk about democratising the House of Commons, the more carefu...
Viscount Hailsham | 495 c342 (Link to this contribution) I have just a brief point. I agree entirely with what the hon. Gentleman is saying. We are establish...
Baroness Keeley | 495 c357 (Link to this contribution) I need to make a little progress. Let me turn to amendments 65 and 66, which were tabled by the hon...
Baroness Keeley | 495 c357 (Link to this contribution) To return to amendment 17, I understand that the Members who tabled it might be prepared not to pres...
Baroness Keeley | 495 c357 (Link to this contribution) No, it was not the intention to create binding obligations. The provision was expressly limited to a...
Bernard Jenkin | 495 c357 (Link to this contribution) The Bill contains other clauses, which have been put in for clarification, such as that which makes ...
Baroness Keeley | 495 c357 (Link to this contribution) We have to be in a situation of clarity—[Hon. Members: "Absolutely."] Okay, well, we can try to move...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c358 (Link to this contribution) I come back to my point about justiciability, about which the Minister must have a view. I believe t...
Baroness Keeley | 495 c358 (Link to this contribution) We have said that we are prepared to have a look at the matter. We are going to have to leave it the...
Baroness Keeley | 495 c358 (Link to this contribution) We do not believe that those matters will be justiciable. Opposition Members have said that they wan...
Lord Beith | 495 c358 (Link to this contribution) I think that the Minister is confusing things that involve proceedings in this House and things that...
Baroness Keeley | 495 c359 (Link to this contribution) There does need to be that independent authority.
Bernard Jenkin | 495 c359 (Link to this contribution) The Minister mentioned the term "exclusive cognisance". Can she explain to the House what she means ...
Baroness Keeley | 495 c359-60 (Link to this contribution) No. I will not lengthen the debate by that method. Given that amendment 64 is about a simple stateme...
Jack Straw | 495 c360 (Link to this contribution) Let me refute what the hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) said in an unusually te...
Lord Beith | 495 c361 (Link to this contribution) It is an unintended consequence.
Charles Walker | 495 c354 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State makes my argument beautifully. This is a House matter, and I am raising my co...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c354 (Link to this contribution) Order. I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman is going to continue with his remarks in relation to amen...
Charles Walker | 495 c354 (Link to this contribution) Over the past 17 years, whenever there has been a crisis of confidence in this country, Parliament h...
Jack Straw | 495 c354 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman says that this body will be a super-quango. He may wish to describe it pejorative...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 495 c353-4 (Link to this contribution) Hon. Members in all parts of the House are making valiant attempts to improve this part of the Bill....
Alistair Carmichael | 495 c355 (Link to this contribution) May I refer the Minister to the words of Lord Bingham when he gave evidence to the Joint Committee o...
Lord Garnier | 495 c354-5 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the hon. Lady is not going to allow herself to be misled by the ancient word "privilege"...
Baroness Keeley | 495 c355 (Link to this contribution) I am not doing that: I am just seeking to remind hon. Members of the context in which we are operati...
Charles Walker | 495 c354 (Link to this contribution) I just wish to support my Front-Bench colleagues in introducing their amendment. This is a very impe...
Baroness Keeley | 495 c354 (Link to this contribution) The 17 amendments in this group make it the largest that we will discuss today, so I hope that hon. ...
Baroness Keeley | 495 c355-6 (Link to this contribution) I agree, and I hope that I have not given that impression. Amendments 32, 33 and 36 would remove th...
Baroness Keeley | 495 c356 (Link to this contribution) The point that I keep asserting is that we need to be clear about the public confidence, and the pub...
Baroness Keeley | 495 c355 (Link to this contribution) Indeed I do, but I do not think that the sensible measures in this Bill would do that.
Robert Smith | 495 c355 (Link to this contribution) The Deputy Leader of the House dismisses the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Sh...
Baroness Keeley | 495 c356 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way, but time is very limited and I have a large group of 17 amendments to work through...
Baroness Keeley | 495 c356 (Link to this contribution) I am going to have to start repeating myself, Mrs. Heal, if people keep asking me the same questions...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c356-7 (Link to this contribution) That simply cannot be right. If the Minister has bothered to read the report from the Justice Commit...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c337-8 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Gentleman and I go back to the evidence given yesterday to the Justice Committ...
Elfyn Llwyd | 495 c337 (Link to this contribution) I am a member of the Standards and Privileges Committee, and we have always transacted our business ...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c337 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. and learned Friend makes a good point, to which I hope the Minister will respond. She ...
Viscount Hailsham | 495 c336-7 (Link to this contribution) Clause 8(2) relates to the recommendation of IPSA. We are all assuming that the recommendation would...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c336 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely with my right hon. Friend. It all shows how poorly thought through the Bill is. It ...
John Redwood | 495 c336 (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend is making a powerful case. Under clause 8(6), one of IPSA's first duties ...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c336 (Link to this contribution) It is clear from our debate on clause 7 that the actions of the commissioner and IPSA will be judici...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c335-6 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for saving me the trouble of having to read out that very passage; I was abou...
William Cash | 495 c335 (Link to this contribution) No doubt my hon. and learned Friend has also read the evidence from the Clerk of the House. He said ...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c333 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 32, page 5, line 22, leave out from 'IPSA' to end of line 25 and insert
Andrew Dismore | 495 c333 (Link to this contribution) I certainly will not press my new clause to a vote now, Sir Michael. I expect that my Joint Committe...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c334-5 (Link to this contribution) We now come to what I think are the core clauses, and in my judgment they start to cause considerabl...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c333-4 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c333 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman wish to press his amendment?
Bernard Jenkin | 495 c333 (Link to this contribution) In view of the Secretary of State's assurances, perhaps my amendment could be dealt with administrat...
Elfyn Llwyd | 495 c332 (Link to this contribution) I rise to support fully the hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore). There is currently a difference be...
Jack Straw | 495 c332-3 (Link to this contribution) In the interests of progress, Sir Michael, I think I have made the points I have made. I commend to ...
Jack Straw | 495 c332 (Link to this contribution) I have made my point in response to my hon. Friend, and I am glad that he accepts that his new claus...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c331 (Link to this contribution) Two things—first, the Secretary of State says he needs to think about the report. We need to think a...
Jack Straw | 495 c330 (Link to this contribution) The one that I am particularly concerned about is that related to the standard of proof, (g). We nee...
Andrew Dismore | 495 c330 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is outlining a series of steps, of which there is one more than we have now, in...
Jack Straw | 495 c329-30 (Link to this contribution) We try not to have criminal offences unless they are necessary. The hon. and learned Gentleman makes...
Andrew Dismore | 495 c332 (Link to this contribution) I accept that new clause 11, in relation to where it fits in the jigsaw of the process, might need t...
Jack Straw | 495 c332 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend, who made the point better than I did.
Mark Durkan | 495 c331-2 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) hit on a very serious po...
Jack Straw | 495 c331 (Link to this contribution) I want to remind the House of this, and it is fundamental: it is astonishing how quickly the focus o...
Jack Straw | 495 c329 (Link to this contribution) Some of the parallels are with the Local Government and Housing Act 1989, and my recollection is tha...
Lord Cormack | 495 c325-6 (Link to this contribution) I shall be brief, but there are two points that I would like to put to the House. Parliaments tend t...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c323-5 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Sir Michael. I hope that the Secretary of State will be able to respond positively. It is...
Andrew Dismore | 495 c327 (Link to this contribution) If the right hon. and learned Gentleman looks at the construction of new clause 11, he will see that...
Viscount Hailsham | 495 c326-7 (Link to this contribution) I just want to say a brief word about amendment 10 and new clause 11. I am a strong supporter of ame...
Jack Straw | 495 c327-8 (Link to this contribution) Like many of these debates, this has been an interesting one. I shall deal with the amendments by gr...
Viscount Hailsham | 495 c327 (Link to this contribution) I had not fully understood that. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that plain, because ...
Jack Straw | 495 c329 (Link to this contribution) We will come on to the offences later, but it is fair to point out that the House has been ready to ...
Bernard Jenkin | 495 c328-9 (Link to this contribution) As the right hon. Gentleman rightly said, I do not intend that the Exchequer should end up providing...
John Redwood | 495 c339-40 (Link to this contribution) I am not a legal expert, but I would read it in that sense. It seems that IPSA is being asked to tak...
David Howarth | 495 c340 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman raises an important point about clause 8(6). Surely the crucial question is...
John Redwood | 495 c340 (Link to this contribution) It is. My reading of the drafting suggests that none of this is subject to parliamentary approval. ...
Graham Allen | 495 c340-1 (Link to this contribution) The most painful part of this situation is that we are all now having to confront the reality of the...
Gerald Howarth | 495 c341 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making an extremely important point. These are vital issues for the future of ...
Graham Allen | 495 c341-2 (Link to this contribution) I am not suggesting that we should rely upon the other place, but even the fact that the Lords will ...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c338 (Link to this contribution) There are clearly potential issues of double jeopardy. Double jeopardy is a rather complicated subje...
Bob Spink | 495 c338 (Link to this contribution) I am looking at subsection (9). Would the hon. and learned Gentleman expect that, if there were crim...
Peter Bone | 495 c339 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is making a powerful argument. Am I right in thinking, in parliamentary draftin...
John Redwood | 495 c338-9 (Link to this contribution) I rise to support my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) in all that he...
Edward Leigh | 495 c351-2 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has put his finger on what concerns me. At present we have a rule called parliame...
Baroness Keeley | 495 c359 (Link to this contribution) No, as I am going to work through the rest of the amendments. Amendment 19 would omit subsection (6...
William Cash | 495 c356 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister think that the public might be extremely angered by the idea that they as electors...
Jack Straw | 495 c387 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Sir Alan. It is fair to say that you have not had notice of such a s...
Robert Smith | 495 c407 (Link to this contribution) Despite the controversy and mishandling, I want to place those thanks on the record, because there h...
Andrew Dismore | 495 c316-8 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to amendment 48 and new clauses 5 and 11, which I have tabled to give effect to recomm...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c329 (Link to this contribution) I remember the generality of discussions on the Scotland Act, but I certainly would not be able to r...
Jack Straw | 495 c401 (Link to this contribution) Everyone who has looked at the issue of bribery has accepted that there has to be a provision simila...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 495 c395 (Link to this contribution) It seems to me that amendment 6 is affected by the decision to remove clause 10, which means that, a...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 495 c319-20 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right, and it is a scandal that we did not even discuss such a vital protection ye...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c323 (Link to this contribution) This has been an interesting debate, and I hope that the Secretary of State will be able to respond ...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c366 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
David Howarth | 495 c357 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Lady clarify whether the Government's intention is for the protocol to create obligati...
Dominic Grieve | 495 c360 (Link to this contribution) If the Bill goes on the statute book and does not get repealed or altered soon, I think that the Min...
Charles Walker | 495 c336 (Link to this contribution) I have a problem with IPSA. What would happen if the compliance failure was IPSA's failure? If a Mem...
Bernard Jenkin | 495 c394-5 (Link to this contribution) I shall be extremely brief. The amendment is, very logically, an extension of the principle of remov...
Edward Leigh | 495 c358 (Link to this contribution) The Minister must realise that this is a matter of acute concern. The Bill of Rights has been there ...
John Redwood | 495 c356 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister not understand that the public were unhappy about the generosity of the scheme and ...

Subjects

Complaints
Disciplinary proceedings
Data protection
Codes of practice
Conduct
Allowances
House of Commons
Legal aid scheme
Members
Members' interests
Parliamentary privilege
Standards
Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority
Sunset clauses

Legislation

Parliamentary Standards Bill 2008-09

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
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