UK Parliament / Open data

Serious Crime Bill [HL]

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Wednesday, 7 March 2007, in the House of Lords.
Serious Crime Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage first day. Clause 1 agreed to. Clause 2 under consideration. Part 1 of 2 records.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

690 c229-87 

Session

2006-07

Department

Home Office

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Related items

Serious Crime Bill (HL). Explanatory Notes HL Bill 27-EN also published.
Tuesday, 16 January 2007
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c240-1 (Link to this contribution) We would not have to go to Strasbourg. We on these Benches opposed ASBOs when they were introduced o...
Lord Henley | 690 c241-2 (Link to this contribution) We have some sympathy for the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, but at the same ti...

Show all contributions (109)
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c242 (Link to this contribution) It is clear from the number of noble Lords and noble and learned Lords who have spoken that it might...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c243-4 (Link to this contribution) I do not propose to, but I should like to expand on why the civil standard is the most appropriate. ...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 690 c243 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the Minister will come on to dealing with the basic problem here. ASBOs are preventiv...
Viscount Bledisloe | 690 c244 (Link to this contribution) I confess to being confused by the noble Baroness’s remarks. At Second Reading, I thought that this ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c242-3 (Link to this contribution) It absolutely does not mean that that would be the case. Let us take as an example a people traffick...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c242 (Link to this contribution) Does this mean that when a person is released from prison, he is to be put under house arrest becaus...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c243 (Link to this contribution) I said in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, that it is not proposed that these issues should re...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 690 c243 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister, since she was focusing specifically on my point. Does she not agree that the c...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 690 c235 (Link to this contribution) I listened with great care to the noble Baroness’s answer to my noble friend the Duke of Montrose an...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c235 (Link to this contribution) I can indeed give the noble Baroness that assurance. We have kept in the closest possible touch with...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 690 c238 (Link to this contribution) I begin my short intervention by saying how sorry I was not to be able to take part in the Second Re...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 690 c237-8 (Link to this contribution) This seems to me a rather important amendment. Indeed, it goes to the heart of my objection to the B...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c235-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this short debate. In particular, I thank m...
Lord Morris of Aberavon | 690 c240 (Link to this contribution) I sympathise with the Government on their aim. It is important that, as is stated in the Bill, the p...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 690 c239-40 (Link to this contribution) I shall try not to repeat what has been said, because I very much agree with what the noble and lear...
Viscount Bledisloe | 690 c239 (Link to this contribution) I have considerable sympathy with the speeches made in support of the amendment, but I am rather puz...
Lord James of Blackheath | 690 c238-9 (Link to this contribution) I would like to pursue a point arising from the points made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloy...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c234-5 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may reinforce what the noble Lord has said—he is absolutely right. The Serious Organised C...
Lord Dholakia | 690 c231-2 (Link to this contribution) I support particular amendment in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, and the noble Lord, ...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c229-31 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 1: 1: Clause 1 , page 1, line 5, leave out ““order”” and insert ““Organised Cr...
Duke of Montrose | 690 c232 (Link to this contribution) As we are discussing the scope of these measures, it is interesting to note that the Explanatory Not...
Lord Burnett | 690 c234 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister sits down, I make a short plea. This level of international crime is highly soph...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c232-4 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, for the way in which she introduced the amendment. It is cl...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c279-80 (Link to this contribution) I resist these amendments and I have already explored some of the reasons why. Amendment No. 11 and ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c280 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness will recall that earlier this afternoon she told us in no uncertain terms that th...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c280 (Link to this contribution) I hope that nothing I said earlier was inconsistent with what I have just said. I have tried to expl...
Lord Henley | 690 c275 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness responds to the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, I remind her of the position of...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c275-6 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Henley, for his helpful and supportive scepticism. I understand the anx...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c276-7 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate the noble Lord’s wisdom, as we had much debate on those provisions. In this instance w...
Lord Goodhart | 690 c277-8 (Link to this contribution) I would recommend the noble Baroness not to hold her breath, and I would certainly not believe that ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c278-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 11: 11: Clause 2, page 2, line 23, after ““has”” insert ““conducted himself in...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c279 (Link to this contribution) I can be brief on this amendment, but that does not mean that I have no sympathy with it—quite the r...
Lord Goodhart | 690 c272-4 (Link to this contribution) Although my name is not down to the proposal that Clause 1 should not stand part of the Bill, my nob...
Lord Lucas | 690 c274-5 (Link to this contribution) I want to clarify my understanding of what Part 1 achieves. It seems that we are all agreed that the...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c272 (Link to this contribution) We have heat-seeking equipment, which I think has been available since early 2000, and sniffer dogs....
Lord Dholakia | 690 c272 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for her assurance that prosecution will be at the heart of this matter. Perhaps...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c267-8 (Link to this contribution) There can be no doubt at all that trafficking is a great social evil. I am grateful to the noble Lor...
Lord Hylton | 690 c268-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, for giving us some figures about trafficking. Of c...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 690 c271-2 (Link to this contribution) Can the noble Baroness clarify whether, for example, the physical structures and so on that assist i...
Lord Hylton | 690 c272 (Link to this contribution) I think that heat-seeking equipment is the answer that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell, is se...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 690 c269-70 (Link to this contribution) I support the points made by my noble friend, Baroness Anelay, particularly in the context of traffi...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c270-1 (Link to this contribution) With this area in particular, these orders should never be seen as a substitute for prosecution. Pro...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c287 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House be resumed, and, in moving the Motion and to facilitate refreshment, I ...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c286-7 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend Lord Lucas rightly referred to the fact that in Clause 4 there is a defence of reaso...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c284-6 (Link to this contribution) I shall respond, first, to the whole issue of industry regulation and shall take the example given b...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c286 (Link to this contribution) I am not so sure who is the more offended or insulted by such an interchangeability. I am sure that ...
Lord Lucas | 690 c283-4 (Link to this contribution) We have covered a lot of this before so I shall not try to add too much. It seems to me that where w...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 690 c284 (Link to this contribution) It seems to me that our friend with the van with a double floor may turn out to be rather a bad exam...
Lord Haskel | 690 c283 (Link to this contribution) I have to tell the Committee that if Amendment No. 12 is agreed, I cannot call Amendments Nos. 13 an...
Lord Dholakia | 690 c283 (Link to this contribution) I shall be very brief because many of the arguments on this matter have already been advanced. All I...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c281 (Link to this contribution) Far too much longer, I am afraid. With the greatest of respect to the Minister, I say that she has s...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c281-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 12: 12: Clause 2 , page 2, line 25, leave out paragraph (c) The noble Barones...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c252 (Link to this contribution) I can see the fear, but I am advised that it works thus; so far, there have only been difficulties w...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c252-3 (Link to this contribution) No, they are not in contravention because it is reasonable to suppose that the regime we have put in...
Lord Burnett | 690 c252 (Link to this contribution) Without labouring the Article 6 point too much, is the thrust of the Minister’s case that some provi...
Lord Dholakia | 690 c253-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 3: 3: Clause 1 , page 1, line 10, at end insert ““; and (c) it is satisfied th...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c254 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Viscount not accept that, if these orders are to be imposed on people who have served...
Viscount Bledisloe | 690 c254 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord accept that the amendment is totally incompatible with those that we have just d...
Viscount Bledisloe | 690 c254 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I accept that, but is it accepted that these orders can only be used against somebody who has a...
Lord James of Blackheath | 690 c249 (Link to this contribution) Is the way in which the Bill will work as explained this afternoon compatible with the protection of...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c248-9 (Link to this contribution) I have to be really careful because I have about 12 excellent examples in my mind, but I regret to t...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 690 c250 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has been patience personified and I wonder if I may stretch it a tiny bit longer by ask...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c250 (Link to this contribution) I agree with noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, that if these amendments were passed, you would not be ...
Viscount Bledisloe | 690 c249-50 (Link to this contribution) In answering my point, the Minister postulated two categories. First, she was concerned that Mr Big,...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c249 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that I entirely understand the concern of the noble Lord, Lord James; but if he is say...
Lord Lucas | 690 c252 (Link to this contribution) Yes, but that is a private transaction between the police and the company, and I would expect a grea...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c251-2 (Link to this contribution) I shall first deal with the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. As regards destroying busines...
Lord Lucas | 690 c251 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness gave the example of vehicles with false bottoms. The proposal to report orders to...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c250-1 (Link to this contribution) I must be doing very poorly indeed today. I apologise if I seem to have lacked the clarity that woul...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c262 (Link to this contribution) We on these Benches wholly support the amendment. The use of the expression ““examples”” introduces ...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c261-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 8: 8: Clause 1, page 2, line 11, leave out ““6 to 15 (safeguards)”” and insert...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c263 (Link to this contribution) With the greatest respect to the Minister, we know that control orders restrict people to their hous...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c262-3 (Link to this contribution) I am concerned by the noble Lord’s insistence on ““house arrest”” because the Committee knows that t...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c261 (Link to this contribution) This may be another example of ““yes but no but yes””, but perhaps it is a yes. I really sought to a...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c263-4 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that it will advantage the Committee for us to rerun our debate, which lasted over an...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c265-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Carnegy of Lour because she highlighted exactly my concern tha...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c264-5 (Link to this contribution) I absolutely understand the nature of the concerns of the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy of Lour, and ...
Lord Dholakia | 690 c256 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for her explanation. I also thank the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, for his o...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c256 (Link to this contribution) There may be orders referable to individuals’ business dealings; for instance, providing that they c...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c256 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister agree that, if a prosecution is pending or contemplated, a person should be charge...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c254-6 (Link to this contribution) There are some internal inconsistencies in these amendments, but I took it that this amendment and t...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c260-1 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for the way in which she spoke to her amendment. This goes back to some o...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c260 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 7: 7: Clause 1, page 2, line 5, leave out from ““requirements”” to end of line...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c259-60 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. She has taken me some way forward to seeing whether we might be able ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c258-9 (Link to this contribution) First, taking up the final point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, I should make it c...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 690 c258 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister in her reply undertake to deal with the provisions in Clause 5(7), which, on sever...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c256-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 6: 6: Clause 1, page 2, line 4, leave out ““may contain”” and insert ““must pr...
Lord Morris of Aberavon | 690 c246 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister deal with the question that I put? It seems to me that such prohibitions, restricti...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c246 (Link to this contribution) I believe it is. We have looked at this issue very carefully. I have not hesitated to agree with the...
Lord Goodhart | 690 c245 (Link to this contribution) To return to the distinction that emerged in the discussion between the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisl...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c245-6 (Link to this contribution) I understand the concern raised by the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart; this causes us to look at the matt...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c247 (Link to this contribution) I respectfully point out that subsection (3) says that the order under the "““section may contain … ...
Lord Goodhart | 690 c247 (Link to this contribution) In support of what my noble friend has just said, the Minister should look at Clause 5(6) which says...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c247 (Link to this contribution) I had not realised that there was a reverse burden of proof in subsection (1)(b). The Bill certainly...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c247 (Link to this contribution) We are not contemplating—it has been said now two or three times—confining people to their homes. It...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c244-5 (Link to this contribution) In one sense, we are dealing with both groups. We are dealing with groups of criminals who have prev...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 690 c264 (Link to this contribution) I am getting more and more sympathetic to the Minister personally in her struggle to explain why the...
Lord Dholakia | 690 c236-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 2: 2: Clause 1, page 1, line 6, after ““satisfied”” insert ““beyond reasonable...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c229 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Moved acc...
Lord Burnett | 690 c232 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, referred to the kind of criminals to be targeted. I wish to raise t...
Lord Goodhart | 690 c276 (Link to this contribution) Those words are taken from the relevant provisions of the Proceeds of Crime Act. I did not want to s...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c254 (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia wants to answer that.
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 690 c247 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness should understand that we are teasing these things out to try and produce some se...
Lord Dholakia | 690 c266-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 10: 10: Clause 1, page 2, line 11, at end insert— ““( ) The making of a seriou...
Lord Dholakia | 690 c253 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for her explanation, but she will have noted the concern of almost all the nobl...

Subjects

Civil liberties
Criminal proceedings
Crime prevention
Crime
Assets
Assets Recovery Agency
Immigration
Large goods vehicles
Serious Organised Crime Agency
High Court
House arrest
Serious crime prevention orders
Freezing of assets
People smuggling

Legislation

Serious Crime Bill (HL) 2006-07

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
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