Serious Crime Bill [HL]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Henley, for his helpful and supportive scepticism. I understand the anxiety that the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, expressed. I thank him for accepting that these orders could have great benefit in relation to those who have been properly convicted of an offence. He puts his finger on a matter on which a number of noble Lords said they had great anxiety: those cases where there may not have been a conviction but where criminal activity is going on and an order is applied for. I almost tremble to say it but I think that we on this side may be in danger of becoming more like Liberals on this issue than the noble Lord, as we seek to prevent the unnecessary criminalisation of individuals but to stop the activity that is complained of. I absolutely understand the anxiety of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. He rightly says that it would be iniquitous if ordinary business people going about their legitimate business with no idea at all that they were being used by serious criminals in an inappropriate and iniquitous way should be dragged into the net. I agree with him in that regard. That is why we have cast the net relatively tightly. The majority of people who are apprised of the fact that their property or facilities are being abused in this way are greatly shocked and appalled that that is happening and do everything in their power to ensure that they are not used in that inappropriate way again. However, in some cases that is not the response. One has to accept that some people are perfectly content to engage trenchantly with criminals and facilitate their acts confident in the knowledge that, if they make sure that it cannot be said with any cogency that they have planned the activity or knew expressly of it, they will keep themselves free of punishment but have the advantage of the ill gotten gains or the increased money that they get for their goods. Those individuals are facilitating serious crime while seeking narrowly to remain within the confines of legitimate activity. We hope to use these orders to differentiate between those two categories of people. In crafting the criminal offence the noble Lord used words such as ““knowing”” or ““reasonable grounds for suspecting””. The latter phrase is a more interesting construct, but the noble Lord will remember that when we have discussed reasonable suspicion or reasonable grounds for believing in relation to criminal offences, we have had difficulty getting that across.