Serious Crime Bill [HL]

I would recommend the noble Baroness not to hold her breath, and I would certainly not believe that I am being less liberal than the Government are here. In practice, this is what would obviously happen: if the police thought that something suspicious was going on, the first thing that they would do is go round and talk to the people in the business concerned—who, if they were taken aback by that, would say, ““I had no idea about this, we will of course stop it at once””. That would be the end of that, and there would be no prosecution or charges, or anything of that kind. In their proposals, the Government are in fact taking what I would regard as an easy way out, instead of having to come up with proof to the criminal standard that the person facilitating the crime was in fact aware of, or deliberately closed his eyes to, what was happening. It would not be possible simply on some lower standard such as the balance of probabilities to issue an order that could be highly restrictive and could, as the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, suggested, have a serious adverse effect. The Government ought to require orders to be imposed only on the basis of a criminal conviction, which it should be possible to obtain here. That would certainly have a serious deterrent effect on those who knew what they were risking. However, I will take the matter no further. Clause 1 agreed to. Clause 2 [Involvement in serious crime: England and Wales orders]: