Identity Cards Bill. Lords Committee stage sixth day. Clauses 24 to 45 agreed to. Schedule 2 agreed to. Bill reported with amendments (HL Bill 55).
Identity Cards Bill
Committee of the Whole House (HL)
and
Debate on bills on Monday, 19 December 2005,
in the House of Lords.
About these Parliamentary proceedings
Reference
676 c1511-67Session
2005-06Legislative stage
Committee stageChamber / Committee
House of Lords chamberRelated items
Identity Cards Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory notes HL Bill 28-EN also published.
Wednesday, 19 October 2005
Bills
House of Lords
Wednesday, 19 October 2005
Bills
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1565 (Link to this contribution)
One of the curious things is that the LSE report did not provide any background information on how t...
Baroness Noakes | 676 c1565-7 (Link to this contribution)
I thank all Members of the Committee who have taken part in this interesting debate which has helped...
Show all contributions (83)
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1567 (Link to this contribution)
Before the House resumes, I invite noble Lords to make a note in their diaries. We complete the Comm...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1561-4 (Link to this contribution)
I shall adopt the modus operandi advocated by my noble friend Lord Barnett and say: I agree with my ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 676 c1564 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the noble Baroness for giving way. What is the quantum of disagreement? We have figures of £...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1564 (Link to this contribution)
We say that our figures are sound. They are sound because they are based on actual costs. We have pr...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 676 c1564-5 (Link to this contribution)
I am again grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way. I think that the report was published in M...
Lord Carter of Coles | 676 c1559-61 (Link to this contribution)
The amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, has a keen attraction for those intereste...
Lord Crickhowell | 676 c1549-50 (Link to this contribution)
I have added my name to the amendment moved by my noble friend. The noble Lord, Lord Barnett, was th...
Lord Bhattacharyya | 676 c1553-4 (Link to this contribution)
There is some good news in the amendment: it seems that the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and others ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 676 c1550-3 (Link to this contribution)
My name is on the amendment. The issue of the estimated capital costs of establishing and integratin...
Baroness Ludford | 676 c1554 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord mentioned the EU passport scheme. As the UK is not opted in to the scheme, we are not...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 676 c1555 (Link to this contribution)
Did the noble Lord say that he had personal experience of the use of these machines and, if so, how ...
Lord Bhattacharyya | 676 c1555 (Link to this contribution)
The cost depends entirely on volume. We use experimental machines in laboratories and we buy in one ...
Earl of Onslow | 676 c1555-6 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord, Lord Bhattacharyya, made at least three mistakes in what he said. First, he said tha...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 676 c1558 (Link to this contribution)
It is not my case—and I do not think that it is anybody’s—that this proposal is ““utterly unaffordab...
Lord Macdonald of Tradeston | 676 c1556-8 (Link to this contribution)
I support what the noble Lord, Lord Bhattacharyya, said about the importance of process. I was delig...
Earl of Onslow | 676 c1556 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord has just made my point for me. He said that the specification was wrong; the costs we...
Lord Bhattacharyya | 676 c1556 (Link to this contribution)
The specification of the national air traffic control system was wrong. It did not identify the comp...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 676 c1559 (Link to this contribution)
Why is it not? We do not have to pay for this scheme at the moment. When we introduce this Bill, wit...
Lord Macdonald of Tradeston | 676 c1558-9 (Link to this contribution)
Surely, year by year that will be the business of the departments of the Treasury and, ultimately, o...
Lord Macdonald of Tradeston | 676 c1559 (Link to this contribution)
What I can say from some experience of businesses is that by the year you develop your ambitions acc...
Lord Hylton | 676 c1559 (Link to this contribution)
I invite the Minister to state what kind of costs are going to be recovered from the public—that is,...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 676 c1539-40 (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way. She is getting into her favourite ““auntie”...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1539 (Link to this contribution)
It is not. You have to give your biometric data and you cannot do that by correspondence. You have t...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 676 c1540 (Link to this contribution)
Does the noble Baroness not agree that her code may be excellent as a code but the letter, the repea...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1540 (Link to this contribution)
It is not soft soap because noble Lords will know that we have a PACE code. No one suggests that tha...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 676 c1539 (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I did not express myself very clearly. Is it open to the person concerned to deal with the m...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 676 c1541 (Link to this contribution)
Before the noble Baroness answers that, surely the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, is wrong wh...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1540 (Link to this contribution)
It is a framework which can apply efficiently and effectively. It will be the template used by those...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 676 c1540-1 (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for saying that. She was helpful on the warning letter, and...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1541 (Link to this contribution)
I would certainly be more than willing to look at those issues. As I said, the code was a draft. Nob...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 676 c1541 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Baroness says that this is not punishment. Am I right in believing that until the scheme b...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 676 c1542 (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful to the Minister. I do not regard this as a game. The noble Lord was making a seri...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1542 (Link to this contribution)
I am saying that enforcement proceedings can be taken in relation to the payment of fines. I am sure...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 676 c1542 (Link to this contribution)
I wonder whether the Minister can help a non-lawyer. Is she saying that the noble Lord, Lord Stoddar...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1542 (Link to this contribution)
The Debtors Act 1869 abolished common law powers to imprison for debt, subject to various exceptions...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 676 c1541-2 (Link to this contribution)
I really am sorry to interrupt again, and am most obliged to the Minister for giving way. I am still...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1541 (Link to this contribution)
First, I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, that there will be no imprisonment for f...
Baroness Noakes | 676 c1543-7 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 259A:"Before Clause 37, insert the following new clause—"
““ESTIMATE OF COSTS
...
Lord Barnett | 676 c1547-9 (Link to this contribution)
I share the noble Baroness’s concern about costs. I shall try to be brief in my few remarks. If I ma...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1542 (Link to this contribution)
Of course I hear what the noble Lord says. I have been as crystal clear as I can be in relation to t...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 676 c1542-3 (Link to this contribution)
I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 256 to 259...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 676 c1529-30 (Link to this contribution)
I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this important debate on the part of the Bill relating to...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1529 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 24(3)(c) does not exclude Clause 20 from the commissioner’s remit.
Lord Lucas | 676 c1529 (Link to this contribution)
I accept that and I am extremely grateful for it. The point I raised followed on from what the noble...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1529 (Link to this contribution)
I do not think that it is intended to be. I said that I would look at the first half of the noble Lo...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 676 c1532-4 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, for raising this issue—although he is right in sayin...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 676 c1532 (Link to this contribution)
I strongly support my noble friend’s amendment. I do not make the concession that he did, however, t...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 676 c1530-2 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 228:"Page 21, line 43, at end insert—"
““( ) The Commissioner shall establ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1528-9 (Link to this contribution)
While I hear what the noble Lord says, we do not agree. Looking at the kind of complaints and the pr...
Lord Lucas | 676 c1529 (Link to this contribution)
I am very grateful for what the Minister has said. However, the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford,...
Lord Crickhowell | 676 c1528 (Link to this contribution)
It was exactly that point, when the noble Baroness spoke earlier, that prompted me to speak again. T...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 676 c1537 (Link to this contribution)
My name is added to the amendment, which I strongly support. I will not repeat the arguments so clea...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 676 c1536-7 (Link to this contribution)
I do not know what to say to that—bash on, I think. Amendment No. 255A would require the Secretary o...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1538-9 (Link to this contribution)
I hope that I can help the noble Lord. I should start by saying that the whole point of the civil pe...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 676 c1537-8 (Link to this contribution)
I very much support the amendment. Transparency is everything in this field. I will draw an analogy ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1539 (Link to this contribution)
Of course he can ascribe a reason. That is why I said that the first letter will not give the person...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 676 c1539 (Link to this contribution)
I am sure that the answer will be in the affirmative, but can the person to whom the written notice ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 676 c1534-5 (Link to this contribution)
I wish the Government would not use the word ““customers””. The people who are involved in being reg...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 676 c1535-6 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to everyone who has spoken in consideration of this part of the Bill. I nearly said I ...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 676 c1525-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I had not intended to intervene in this debate until I heard the Minister’s reply. What wo...
Lord Lucas | 676 c1525 (Link to this contribution)
I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for her reply to my Amendment No. 221A. I never imagined th...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 676 c1526-8 (Link to this contribution)
The position of the national identity scheme commissioner is to supervise the operation of the Act. ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1528 (Link to this contribution)
If I dealt with all these amendments in graphic detail, I would avoid having to say any more. But of...
Lord Hylton | 676 c1517 (Link to this contribution)
I am convinced that we need very strong safeguards, both for individuals’ privacy, as described in t...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 676 c1519-20 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way. I hesitate to interrupt her flow, but she was ar...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1517-9 (Link to this contribution)
I hope that I can reassure the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, that in fact the safeguards in Clause 24 do ...
Lord Crickhowell | 676 c1524-5 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the noble Baroness for giving us such an amazingly detailed response to this large list of a...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1520-4 (Link to this contribution)
It is already crystal clear. The whole way in which the commissioner will work is going to incorpora...
Lord Crickhowell | 676 c1515 (Link to this contribution)
I added my name to the majority of the amendments which have been so admirably spoken to by my noble...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 676 c1511-5 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 221:"Page 21, line 26, after ““it;”” insert—"
““( ) the arrangements for e...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1511 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved acc...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 676 c1516-7 (Link to this contribution)
I have tabled Amendment No. 222 in this group and support Amendments Nos. 231 and 234. Amendment No....
Lord Lucas | 676 c1515-6 (Link to this contribution)
I have a couple of amendments in this group, and I support everything that my noble friend Lord Cric...
Lord Crickhowell | 676 c1550 (Link to this contribution)
As I have already observed on an earlier occasion, the noble Lord’s question gives me the opportunit...
Lord Macdonald of Tradeston | 676 c1558 (Link to this contribution)
Yes, I accept that. When I referred to unaffordabilty, I had in mind the noble Lord’s statement abou...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 676 c1536 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 255A:"Page 28, line 42, at end insert—"
““( ) No such notice may be given ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 676 c1550 (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps the noble Lord would assist me. He has made great play of how the noble Baroness, Lady Thatc...
Lord Bhattacharyya | 676 c1554-5 (Link to this contribution)
If there is a convergence of technologies and information for passports, we will have to be there.
...
Earl of Onslow | 676 c1558 (Link to this contribution)
All one is asking is, ““How much?”” We want Parliament to be told how much. There is nothing new in ...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 676 c1536 (Link to this contribution)
Before the noble Lord moves the amendment, I should say that the Clock has not moved on, whereas the...
Lord Hylton | 676 c1528 (Link to this contribution)
First, I agree entirely with the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, that when we return to this on...
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