Pensions Bill. Lords Committee stage first day. Clauses 1 to 4 agreed to. Clause 5 under consideration. Part 1 of 2 records.
Pensions Bill
Committee of the Whole House (HL)
and
Debate on bills on Monday, 4 June 2007,
in the House of Lords.
About these Parliamentary proceedings
Reference
692 c884-958Session
2006-07Legislative stage
Committee stageChamber / Committee
House of Lords chamberRelated items
Pensions Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 61-EN also published.
Thursday, 19 April 2007
Bills
House of Lords
Thursday, 19 April 2007
Bills
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c928-9 (Link to this contribution)
I thank noble Lords who have contributed to this debate, but I urge the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, not...
Lord Fowler | 692 c927-8 (Link to this contribution)
It makes almost no difference to the point that I was going to make. Having become a grandfather for...
Show all contributions (114)
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c930 (Link to this contribution)
No. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 692 c930 (Link to this contribution)
No, we did Amendment No. 11. The noble Lord spoke to Amendment No. 13 but he moved Amendment No. 12....
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 692 c931-2 (Link to this contribution)
I am very happy to respond to Amendment No. 13.
Noble Lords will already be aware that home respons...
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c931 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 13:
13: After Clause 3, insert the following new Clause—
““Allocation of child...
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c930 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 12:
12: After Clause 3, insert the following new Clause—
““Report on contribut...
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c929-30 (Link to this contribution)
I am extremely grateful to my noble friend Lord Fowler for his speech in response to my amendment. I...
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c930 (Link to this contribution)
We have already done Amendment No. 12.
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 692 c930 (Link to this contribution)
I think I am replying to Amendment No. 13. Is that correct? I will come back to Amendment No. 12.
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c932-4 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 14:
14: Clause 5, page 5, line 33, at end insert ““including those claimed by ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c932 (Link to this contribution)
I shall certainly withdraw it. I was extremely interested in the further information that the Minist...
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c910 (Link to this contribution)
It seems to me that we are departing from a principle with which I thought we all agreed: namely, th...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c909 (Link to this contribution)
That may be right. The current system, which we are about to change, is very male-oriented. My noble...
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c910-1 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 7:
7: Clause 3, page 3, leave out lines 26 to 31
The noble Lord said: We move...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c910 (Link to this contribution)
The problem is that the contributory principle is based on a Beveridge-type principle, which, given ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c908-9 (Link to this contribution)
I shall withdraw the amendment but I still do not understand why payments have to be expeditious. Ap...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c909 (Link to this contribution)
Under the current system, if someone has been in employment for a number of years or, if working abr...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c909 (Link to this contribution)
As we are in Committee, perhaps I may ask a question. I have listened to the debate and, in particul...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c908 (Link to this contribution)
I will try to help my noble friend. The issue of timing is important. People who are employed pay na...
Lord Fowler | 692 c908 (Link to this contribution)
I am not sure whose speech I am interrupting but would the Minister have the same objection if, inst...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 692 c918 (Link to this contribution)
I support the amendment, not with reluctance but because it is crucially important to face this issu...
Baroness Greengross | 692 c918 (Link to this contribution)
I speak as chair of the All-Party Group on Grandparents and Extended Kin. I agree completely with th...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c917-8 (Link to this contribution)
I pay tribute to the West Norfolk Women and Carers’ Pension Network, part of the Equal Opportunity C...
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c915 (Link to this contribution)
I, for one, never intended to press my amendment, but I think that there will be universal approval ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c915-7 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 9:
9: Clause 3, page 4, line 17, at end insert—
““23B Contributions credits fo...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c912 (Link to this contribution)
My grouping list includes Amendments Nos. 12 and 13 in this group. If they have been ungrouped, I st...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 692 c912-5 (Link to this contribution)
: I am delighted to respond positively to the debate on behalf of the Government. This is not a pers...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c912 (Link to this contribution)
Are the other amendments in this group—Amendments Nos. 12 and 13—going to be moved?
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c912 (Link to this contribution)
There are no other amendments in this group. We are discussing Amendments Nos. 7 and 8.
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 692 c911-2 (Link to this contribution)
I shall speak to Amendment No. 8. I am fully aware that it is pushing at an open door. After Second ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c924 (Link to this contribution)
I entirely agree. My noble friend is right that if that person has had a job there will be 12 years ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c923-4 (Link to this contribution)
That really is not correct. If we examine the circumstances that my noble friend describes, presumab...
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c919 (Link to this contribution)
I do not want to go into my family history in the same way as the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, but, o...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c919 (Link to this contribution)
I take the point that the amendment may be inappropriately and badly drafted but it is intended to a...
Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde | 692 c919 (Link to this contribution)
I, too, support the amendment. It was interesting to hear the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Oakes...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 692 c920 (Link to this contribution)
I support the amendment and what has been said succinctly by my noble friend in moving it. It seems ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c920-2 (Link to this contribution)
I fear I am going to disappoint my noble friend yet again, but I hope I can convince her that in doi...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c922-3 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister. He is known colloquially—I think that one of his friends has said it—as the Mi...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c923 (Link to this contribution)
Does my noble friend not accept that, under the 30-year rule, if somebody is a grandparent, even wit...
Baroness Greengross | 692 c925 (Link to this contribution)
Will the Minister consider one other thing? Somewhere in the Bill could there not be a line that str...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c925 (Link to this contribution)
With the force of argument that has been made, one will continue to reflect on this matter. However,...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 692 c925 (Link to this contribution)
I should like to probe a tiny bit further. Clearly the Minister has addressed a lot of ways in which...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c927 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, made a brief but powerful attack on the evils of means-testing an...
Lord Fowler | 692 c927 (Link to this contribution)
I say in parenthesis that I was quite cheerful in the debate until the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c926 (Link to this contribution)
With that assurance, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amend...
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c926-7 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 11:
11: After Clause 3, insert the following new Clause—
““Review of pension c...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c924 (Link to this contribution)
They would be able to buy six years under the current arrangement, so that is another six years of e...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 692 c897 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister for that reply, and others who have spoken in this short debate. It should be p...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c895-7 (Link to this contribution)
This group of amendments concerns the payment of extra national insurance contributions after state ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c894 (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I may help the noble Lord. I presume that he supports raising the basic state pension retire...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c898 (Link to this contribution)
That is not necessarily the case; it is only if the individual wishes to continue to contribute. Tha...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c898-9 (Link to this contribution)
I suspect that in that case, if we are assuming a retirement age of 60, a deficiency notice would be...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c897 (Link to this contribution)
Of course the department will keep all these matters under review, but the key purpose of the Bill i...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c898 (Link to this contribution)
On AmendmentNo. 3, my noble friend made a fair point that I need to reflect on about carers and the ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c899-902 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 4:
4: Clause 1, page 2, line 32, at end insert—
““(5) The contributor may make...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 692 c902-3 (Link to this contribution)
We strongly support this amendment, which, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, said, allows greater ...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 692 c903 (Link to this contribution)
I support the amendment. I have listened with considerable interest to all the reasons why some of t...
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c903 (Link to this contribution)
I am afraid that I am not persuaded by the eloquence of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis. I noted fir...
Baroness Greengross | 692 c903 (Link to this contribution)
I add my support to the amendment. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, made clear in introducing it,...
Lord Fowler | 692 c904 (Link to this contribution)
I have listened to the debate and—I had better say this cautiously—found myself very much persuaded ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c904 (Link to this contribution)
As I say, although I tabled the Question several weeks ago, I picked up the Answer only today, so I ...
Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde | 692 c905 (Link to this contribution)
My name is added to the amendment. I can think of no reason why I should not have added my name to i...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c905-7 (Link to this contribution)
I thank my noble friend for raising this important issue and for the debate that has taken place. Sh...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c907 (Link to this contribution)
Given the figures that have emerged today regarding the net additional cost of the gap between the p...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c907 (Link to this contribution)
I do not have those figures to hand, but will certainly provide them to my noble friend. I was about...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c907-8 (Link to this contribution)
I thank my noble friend for the detail of his reply, which I will work on. He made two points—one on...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 692 c891-2 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 2:
2: Clause 1, page 2, line 32, at end insert—
““(5) Should the contributor h...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c892-3 (Link to this contribution)
I support Amendment No. 2 and will speak to Amendment No. 3. Both seek to address the problem of peo...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 692 c893-4 (Link to this contribution)
I support these amendments and wish to draw attention to the briefing that I have received from the ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c894 (Link to this contribution)
I have some sympathy with the amendments in this group, but many of the arguments of the noble Baron...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c890-1 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister for his reply and those who have spoken with varying degrees of sympathy on our...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c891 (Link to this contribution)
Both are true. It is not affordable, and, even if it were, it would not be practical to do it at the...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c891 (Link to this contribution)
As a matter of policy, if the Government are not prepared to spend the money on it they should say s...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c891 (Link to this contribution)
From recollection—I will check my notes—I thought that it ran through to something like 2030, but I ...
Baroness Greengross | 692 c891 (Link to this contribution)
I took quite a lot of encouragement from the Minister, because he responded quite warmly to my sugge...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c891 (Link to this contribution)
I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c887-90 (Link to this contribution)
I very much welcome the opportunity in Committee to debate the detail ofa Bill that has been widely ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c890 (Link to this contribution)
Before the noble Lord, Load Oakeshott, and the noble Baroness decide whether to pursue this matter, ...
Baroness Greengross | 692 c885-6 (Link to this contribution)
I speak to my Amendment No. 5. The provision for gender impact assessments under the public duty to ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c886-7 (Link to this contribution)
My amendment in this group is intended to explore the extent of the analysis relating to the decisio...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c890 (Link to this contribution)
The point is noted. I will ensure that my notes are correspondingly changed.
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c884 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved acc...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 692 c934 (Link to this contribution)
I too ask my noble friends on the Front Bench to consider this matter sympathetically. It is not the...
Baroness Miller of Hendon | 692 c939-42 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 15:
15: Clause 5, page 5, line 39, leave out from ““Where”” to ““shall”” in li...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c938-9 (Link to this contribution)
I thank all noble Lords who have spoken. Everyone has strongly supported the amendment apart from th...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 692 c936-8 (Link to this contribution)
This is my first run at this debate and I very much hope that I shall not be thought of as yet anoth...
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c936 (Link to this contribution)
We have had this debate just about every year since I re-involved myself in what I still, rather old...
Lord Jones of Cheltenham | 692 c935-6 (Link to this contribution)
I support the amendment and wish that my noble friend and, indeed, the Minister would go further. I ...
Lord Dearing | 692 c934-5 (Link to this contribution)
I, too, strongly support the amendment. It is some years since I raised this issue on behalf of some...
Baroness Greengross | 692 c934 (Link to this contribution)
I too strongly support the amendment. Over many years I have met people who represent pensioners abr...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c943-4 (Link to this contribution)
I would back the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, against a sore throat any time. We on these Benches su...
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c942-3 (Link to this contribution)
I added my name to my noble friend’s amendment because I support it. The Bill gives the Secretary of...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c944-9 (Link to this contribution)
I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, th...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 692 c944 (Link to this contribution)
I support the amendment. During my Second Reading speech, I drew attention to the importance of the ...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c949 (Link to this contribution)
had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 17:
17: Clause 5, page 6, line 3, at end i...
Baroness Miller of Hendon | 692 c949 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister for his very detailed answer. It was so detailed that I shall need to read it v...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 692 c952-3 (Link to this contribution)
Provoked by the noble Baroness, I am happily willing to support these amendments. The noble Baroness...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c956 (Link to this contribution)
My noble friend made a powerful point about the sum of £4 a week frozen since 1988. Can the Minister...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c953-6 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful again to my noble friend Lady Hollis for tabling an amendment which enables us to disc...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c956 (Link to this contribution)
I shall be happy to do that. However, I recall from our debate on benefits uprating a few months ago...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c957-8 (Link to this contribution)
Effectively, it would arise from the latter circumstance. The proposition that there is no one in th...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c957 (Link to this contribution)
Can my noble friend say what those costs would be? For instance, someone who may have the opportunit...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c957 (Link to this contribution)
My noble friend presses an interesting point. I have not seen any particular figures and neither has...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c956-7 (Link to this contribution)
We are talking about the cold weather payment. I am grateful to my noble friend for his careful repl...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 692 c958 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move that the House do now resume. In moving the Motion, I suggest that the Committee stage...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c958 (Link to this contribution)
I am sure that there is at least one retired clergyman who would declare it, but my noble friend mus...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c950-2 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 20:
20: Clause 5, page 6, line 40, at end insert—
““150B Annual up-rating of e...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c924-5 (Link to this contribution)
Yes, but the point is that they may start caring at 50; they would hope to finish at 55, but their d...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 692 c884-5 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 1:
1: Clause 1, page 1, line 13, leave out ““2010”” and insert ““2008””
The n...
Lord Skelmersdale | 692 c894 (Link to this contribution)
The difference is that the first has been costed and the second—so far as I know, but I am sure the ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 692 c908 (Link to this contribution)
If the noble Lord is asking whether the Government would support the idea of being able to pay nine ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 692 c923 (Link to this contribution)
My noble friend is absolutely right that the 30-year rule would help, but he is assuming that only o...
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