Pensions Bill

We are talking about the cold weather payment. I am grateful to my noble friend for his careful reply and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, for his contribution. I share with my noble friend my support for what pension credit has done to address pensioner poverty—it has been terrific. In 1997 a pensioner would have had£67 a week; today they get over £119. That has been transforming, and as my noble friend has often told the House, a pensioner is no more likely to be poor than any other member of society, thanks to pension credit. Having said that, I think that two issues divide us on Amendment No. 20. The first argument put by my noble friend is that because pension credit is sufficiently generous, which it is compared with previous levels of financial support for pensioners, it follows that pensioners do not need an earnings disregard. But those are actually unconnected. I can see how the argument would apply to someone of working age, perhaps a young man in his thirties, where one is seeking instead not to make it so comfortable to remain on benefits plus disregards that he never seeks a full-time job. I understand that argument. It may not be a view I always share, but it is understandable. However, it does not apply here. We are not talking about large sums, perhaps £20 a week for a single person, given that most people on pension credit guarantee by definition are single. Working for a few hours a week produces a degree of comfort, social life and interest. It is desirable that people should pursue that. The fact that pension credit has become more generous does not answer the point that, at the risk of sounding pious, people feel the need to be useful, to be valued, and to play a full part in society. Doing a modest part-time job is a way of achieving that. We should be encouraging such efforts, as well as the extra income they produce. The second point made by my noble friend on Amendment No. 20 was that this would cost. I do not believe it. Can he tell me—I am sorry to do this, but he did run this argument—how much we now dock off the benefits of people who have an earnings disregard that exceeds the figure? Could he give me some idea of the figure for people who declare it and we dock their pension? I bet none. I bet the figure cannot be calculated because it is too low. It is a psychological point. People who have small jobs tend to take cash in hand, do not declare it and, as a result, we carry on paying out exactly the same money. All we do instead is build fraud or the grey economy, in the words of the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, into the system. I stand to be corrected, but I do not believe that these costs exist. The notion that there would be additional costs—that additional moneys would be paid out that currently are not being paid out—is simply, if I may suggest it gently, nonsensical. It gets the psychology of this the wrong way round.