UK Parliament / Open data

Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Bill

Debate on bills on Tuesday, 6 February 2007, in the House of Commons, led by Lord Hanson of Flint. The answering member was Laurence Robertson.

Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Bill. Report stage. New Clause 5, discussed with New Clauses 2, 4, and Government New Schedule 1, debated and agreed to. Amendments debated and agreed to. New Schedule 1 debated and agreed to. Third reading debate agreed to on division (314 votes to 45) and Bill passed.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

456 c714-814

Session

2006-07

Proceeding contributions

Paul Goggins | 456 c774 (Link to this contribution) I give way to the hon. Member for Cambridge (David Howarth) in the hope that we will finally agree w...

Paul Goggins | 456 c774 (Link to this contribution) The answer is the same as it was in Committee. These are matters that have to be worked out. It is n...

Show all contributions (246)

Paul Goggins | 456 c775 (Link to this contribution) I would rather give way to the hon. Member for Cambridge.

Paul Goggins | 456 c774-5 (Link to this contribution) I place confidence in the DPP because of his experience and because he is dealing with similar kinds...

Ben Wallace | 456 c774 (Link to this contribution) If the DPP is making the decision whether to go for a jury or not, and is also the prosecuting body,...

Paul Goggins | 456 c774 (Link to this contribution) I do not accept that this is an ouster clause, and I do not accept the hon. Gentleman’s argument. Th...

David Howarth | 456 c774 (Link to this contribution) This might have to be my final intervention on this because we have reached the ultimate point. The ...

Paul Goggins | 456 c771-2 (Link to this contribution) It probably will not surprise the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr. Reid) that I shall oppose his...

Mark Durkan | 456 c772 (Link to this contribution) The Minister misrepresents the legislative position. Last year the House passed legislation that rep...

Paul Goggins | 456 c772 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend misrepresents the Government, because we made it clear at the time when the statement...

Paul Goggins | 456 c773-4 (Link to this contribution) I do not accept the hon. Gentleman’s analysis. In the end it is for us to decide what test should be...

David Howarth | 456 c773 (Link to this contribution) The Minister refers to the view of the Lord Chief Justice for Northern Ireland, but he is not giving...

Mark Durkan | 456 c774 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend said in response to the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr. Robertson) that it is for the...

Paul Goggins | 456 c773 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman will allow me, I will come on to amendment No. 5 in a minute, but I want to de...

Alan Reid | 456 c773 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate the Minister’s concerns that intelligence could get out into the open, but would he not...

Paul Goggins | 456 c773 (Link to this contribution) I accept the hon. Gentleman’s point, but in the end it is for us here to decide which is the appropr...

Laurence Robertson | 456 c773 (Link to this contribution) Given that we are talking about trials going ahead without juries, which is unusual, that is a polit...

Alan Reid | 456 c777-8 (Link to this contribution) I accept that the Minister listened to the concerns expressed in Committee and that the Government h...

Eddie McGrady | 456 c781 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 17, page 11, leave out lines 12 and 13.

Mark Durkan | 456 c784 (Link to this contribution) I speak in support of my hon. Friend the Member for South Down (Mr. McGrady) on amendment No. 17 and...

Lady Hermon | 456 c784 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman reflect for a moment on the analogy that the SDLP often draws in order to in...

Speaker | 456 c781 (Link to this contribution) With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 18, page 11, leave out li...

Eddie McGrady | 456 c782-3 (Link to this contribution) The amendments would ensure that the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission can carry out its func...

Lady Hermon | 456 c786 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman did not understand why I referred to the Belfast agreement in my last interventio...

Lady Hermon | 456 c784 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman refers to the Belfast agreement, a copy of which I have here with me. Perhaps he ...

Mark Durkan | 456 c784 (Link to this contribution) First, I can assure the hon. Lady that we have not just dreamt them up out of the blue. We have made...

David Heath | 456 c775 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister goes too far, he should not demolish the case for the law in England, which is e...

Paul Goggins | 456 c775 (Link to this contribution) I cannot say that I am delighted to have given way to the hon. Gentleman. However, he and I have deb...

Peter Bone | 456 c775 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the Government on introducing legislation that they hope will never have to be used. ...

Paul Goggins | 456 c775-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that point. The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (M...

Lady Hermon | 456 c776 (Link to this contribution) Before we move on to the surprise of the evening, where the Minister will reply to something that I ...

Paul Goggins | 456 c776 (Link to this contribution) I do not deny that it would be difficult, but in the first instance it would be for the defendant’s ...

Paul Goggins | 456 c777 (Link to this contribution) I shall address the issue of exceptional circumstances in a moment. Like all Bills introduced by the...

Alan Reid | 456 c792 (Link to this contribution) I do not have any particular incident in mind, but that is not to say that evidence could not come t...

Lady Hermon | 456 c792 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman referred to a flagrant breach of human rights in the past. What exactly does he h...

Alan Reid | 456 c791-2 (Link to this contribution) But if that information is not released it could inhibit the commission in its investigation. It sho...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c791 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is referring solely to compelling information; there is nothing under the propose...

Alan Reid | 456 c791 (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 24 would leave out clause 19, which restricts the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commis...

Speaker | 456 c791 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments Nos. 26 and 27.

Alan Reid | 456 c790 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 24, page 15, line 32, leave out clause 19.

Eddie McGrady | 456 c790 (Link to this contribution) It is possible that when the rights of the people of Northern Ireland or people generally are infrin...

Mark Durkan | 456 c792-3 (Link to this contribution) As hon. Members can see, I and my hon. Friends have attached our names to this amendment. As it stan...

Lady Hermon | 456 c793-4 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the hon. Gentleman will address the following scenario. I was very critical of him when ...

Sammy Wilson | 456 c789 (Link to this contribution) In the case of places of detention in police stations, the Policing Board, for example, already empl...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c787-9 (Link to this contribution) From my perspective, I hope that the Human Rights Commission will undertake what I term thematic exa...

Lady Hermon | 456 c789 (Link to this contribution) This is a very simple inquiry. Will the Minister tell us whether the Human Rights Commission’s budge...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c789 (Link to this contribution) Ultimately, it would be for the Human Rights Commission to determine what it wants to investigate, a...

Mark Durkan | 456 c786-7 (Link to this contribution) The Human Rights Commission was given a wider brief than that, even in the legislation that establis...

Sammy Wilson | 456 c787 (Link to this contribution) We oppose the additional powers granted to the commission. Given that prisons in Northern Ireland ar...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c787 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friends the Members for South Down (Mr. McGrady) and for Foyle (Mark Durkan) for the...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c789-90 (Link to this contribution) I am not proposing any increase beyond what would be expected in the normal budget round. There are ...

Eddie McGrady | 456 c790 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his detailed reply to me, and to my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark ...

Sammy Wilson | 456 c790 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is trying to downplay the commission’s empire-building capacity. Does he not acce...

Paul Goggins | 456 c811 (Link to this contribution) To the best of my understanding, if we did not exclude aircraft we might allow the police to stray i...

Sammy Wilson | 456 c810-1 (Link to this contribution) I join other hon. Members in thanking those who chaired the Committee for the excellent way in which...

Lembit Opik | 456 c810 (Link to this contribution) We have debated this issue a few times already, and I hold a different view from the hon. Gentleman....

Laurence Robertson | 456 c810 (Link to this contribution) The problem with taking clause 7 out is that I cannot see a right of appeal anywhere else in the Bil...

Sammy Wilson | 456 c811-2 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that explanation and for clearing that up. We feared that the flying squad ...

Mark Durkan | 456 c806-8 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman might remember that I acknowledged that I had been sparing in some of my interven...

Laurence Robertson | 456 c806 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps that is why we did not take up all the allocated time in Committee.

Mark Durkan | 456 c794 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady knows that that is not what we are seeking to do. In any case, it would not be achieve...

Lady Hermon | 456 c794 (Link to this contribution) That is a most interesting point and I am genuinely grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who has just con...

Mark Durkan | 456 c794-5 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is in a better position to answer that. The HRC was at a loss to understand why its pow...

Jeremy Corbyn | 456 c794 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend explain why the 1 August 2007 date has been chosen? What is the thinking behind ...

Sammy Wilson | 456 c795-6 (Link to this contribution) As I said in an earlier intervention, we do not believe that there should be any extension of the HR...

Laurence Robertson | 456 c805-6 (Link to this contribution) I begin by thanking my team who worked in Committee. In particular, I thank my hon. Friend the Membe...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c803-5 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time. I begin by thanking the Under-Secretary of...

Mark Durkan | 456 c794 (Link to this contribution) Clearly, it would be for the HRC to deal with whatever request or complaint anybody brings to it. It...

Mark Durkan | 456 c806 (Link to this contribution) We have a lot more discomfort than the Minister and the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr. Robertson) a...

Mark Durkan | 456 c770 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way again. I remind him yet again what we were told from the D...

Sammy Wilson | 456 c770 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman totally misunderstands or deliberately seeks to misrepresent the point that is be...

Peter Bone | 456 c771 (Link to this contribution) Is not the crux of the matter, as the hon. Gentleman says, the balance? There is no risk to somebody...

Sammy Wilson | 456 c771 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. We can be sure that every time a certificate is is...

David Heath | 456 c771 (Link to this contribution) I understand why the hon. Gentleman might argue against the process of judicial review, but I cannot...

Sammy Wilson | 456 c771 (Link to this contribution) There is no mischief in so far as that adds another step to the process, but given that the decision...

Lady Hermon | 456 c771 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could assist the hon. Gentleman. It is a rare event for me to come to the assistance of th...

Sammy Wilson | 456 c771 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Lady for the intervention. If, every time a certificate is issued, it is challenge...

Sammy Wilson | 456 c770 (Link to this contribution) The judgment in the Shuker case indicates to me that the judiciary want minimum interference in the ...

Laurence Robertson | 456 c770 (Link to this contribution) In the amendments that I tabled, which were not selected, I called for the Lord Chief Justice of Nor...

Mark Durkan | 456 c769 (Link to this contribution) May I remind the hon. Gentleman that, in Committee, he supported an amendment tabled by the hon. Mem...

Sammy Wilson | 456 c769-70 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman talks about a judge drawing an inference, but if we were to go down the route pro...

Alasdair McDonnell | 456 c769 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Sammy Wilson | 456 c769 (Link to this contribution) No; I want to develop my point. The reason for going for a non-jury trial is to ensure not that a d...

Mark Durkan | 456 c768 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman might remember that a point about dealing with organised crime was raised in Comm...

Sammy Wilson | 456 c769 (Link to this contribution) I will come on to that point in a moment or two. However, I first want to establish that the fact th...

Sammy Wilson | 456 c768 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman wishes to answer on behalf of the hon. Member for Belfast, South; I will be more ...

Mark Durkan | 456 c768 (Link to this contribution) The logic of the hon. Gentleman’s argument is that we should just do away with jury trials altogethe...

Sammy Wilson | 456 c768 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman knows that we made it clear on Second Reading that we were relaxed about continui...

Speaker | 456 c760 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment No. 15, page 5, line 24, leave ...

Lembit Opik | 456 c759-60 (Link to this contribution) I understand the Minister’s efforts to define the process in a different way, but I suggest that acc...

Alan Reid | 456 c760 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 5, page 2, line 30, at end insert—

Mark Durkan | 456 c763-4 (Link to this contribution) It is not the SDLP that is trying to restrict the role of a judge, but the legislation. The Bill wou...

Lady Hermon | 456 c764 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted with the hon. Gentleman’s flowery reply to a question that I did not ask, but could h...

Mark Durkan | 456 c762-3 (Link to this contribution) We are now dealing with one of the most draconian elements in the Bill, and I support what the hon. ...

Lady Hermon | 456 c763 (Link to this contribution) I have followed the hon. Gentleman’s argument closely, although I think that it would have been more...

Lembit Opik | 456 c759 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman and others have made the point that the process could not be less transparent. It...

Paul Goggins | 456 c759 (Link to this contribution) I return to the point that I emphasised in my contribution, as did the hon. Member for Foyle. Just e...

David Howarth | 456 c766 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend accept that the Government are playing with fire? In the Jackson case, three mem...

David Heath | 456 c766-7 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend—[Interruption.] I am concerned by what is being said from a sedentary po...

Lady Hermon | 456 c767 (Link to this contribution) I draw to the hon. Gentleman’s attention a decision in the High Court in Belfast. The decision was m...

David Heath | 456 c767 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Lady. That is the basis on which the Government are bringing forward their...

David Howarth | 456 c767 (Link to this contribution) Is there not a world of difference between a decision of the High Court, which is subject to appeal ...

David Heath | 456 c767-8 (Link to this contribution) To my hon. Friend and me there is a world of difference, but, to the Government, I suspect that ther...

Sammy Wilson | 456 c768 (Link to this contribution) If that amendment is pressed to a Division, I make it clear that we will support the Government. The...

Mark Durkan | 456 c764 (Link to this contribution) We have confidence that the judiciary can deal with applications for non-jury trials where that is p...

Laurence Robertson | 456 c764-5 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak briefly in support of the amendment moved by the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr. ...

Iris Robinson | 456 c743 (Link to this contribution) Is not the truth that powers cannot be imposed on an Assembly that does not want them and that is no...

Peter Robinson | 456 c743-4 (Link to this contribution) I agree that new clause 5 gives the Secretary of State the power to set up the Department. However, ...

Lembit Opik | 456 c744 (Link to this contribution) I disagree with the hon. Gentleman. How does he interpret proposed new subsection (7B):"““The draft ...

Peter Robinson | 456 c743 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. That is the key issue. My hon. Friend may not be pleased to know that in ma...

Laurence Robertson | 456 c743 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right. The point is covered by proposed new subsection (7A)(c), which states t...

Lembit Opik | 456 c746 (Link to this contribution) I respectfully point out that I fully expect the Alliance party to be the largest party in the Assem...

Peter Robinson | 456 c744-6 (Link to this contribution) I do not need to extend trust, because ultimately the Assembly is able, as is the First Minister, to...

Laurence Robertson | 456 c744 (Link to this contribution) Surely that will depend on what the Secretary of State puts in the order, which, as the hon. Gentlem...

Peter Robinson | 456 c744 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will have recognised the words that he has quoted—I have been in this House for s...

Peter Robinson | 456 c746 (Link to this contribution) Such are the hon. Gentleman’s expectations that I am sure that he expects no rain in Northern Irelan...

Peter Bone | 456 c738 (Link to this contribution) Could the reason why we are debating the measure now, and not in Committee, be because it could be i...

Peter Robinson | 456 c738 (Link to this contribution) The difficulty that a number of Members face with this issue is that they cannot separate in their m...

Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 456 c739 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right in that analysis. To reinforce that point, hon. Members should lo...

Lembit Opik | 456 c739 (Link to this contribution) However much I may feel provoked by the hon. Gentleman, I can assure him that he is not going to dri...

Peter Robinson | 456 c742 (Link to this contribution) There would not be a single Justice Minister unless we had confidence in that Minister. Is the hon. ...

Lady Hermon | 456 c742 (Link to this contribution) I want to take the hon. Gentleman back to his point about the appointment of our most senior judicia...

Peter Robinson | 456 c743 (Link to this contribution) Deadlock is the notion that comes more readily to my mind in those issues, but, again, who knows wha...

Lady Hermon | 456 c742-3 (Link to this contribution) No, the point is that ““acting jointly”” means that his party leader, or at least the representative...

Alan Reid | 456 c734 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman says that he wants a definite date, but his new clause 2 states that"““the Secret...

Mark Durkan | 456 c734 (Link to this contribution) New clause 2 says that for the very good reason that that form of words has been used throughout Nor...

Mark Durkan | 456 c733 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. The Secretary of State has said on other occasions ...

Peter Robinson | 456 c737-8 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) will forgive me if I do not follow him down the track of his...

Mark Durkan | 456 c735-7 (Link to this contribution) The date of May 2008 is in the St. Andrew’s agreement. We accept the date and we want to give it rea...

Lady Hermon | 456 c735 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing a so-called preacher to intervene again. We are not...

Mark Durkan | 456 c734-5 (Link to this contribution) We are a pro-agreement party—we are completely pro the devolution of justice and policing. It is a p...

Mark Durkan | 456 c734 (Link to this contribution) New clause 5 is different in a number of respects. First, it imposes a model that we clearly do not ...

Peter Bone | 456 c734 (Link to this contribution) I understand entirely what the hon. Gentleman is saying and what the Minister said, but new clause 5...

Lembit Opik | 456 c757-8 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 9, page 2, line 29, leave out paragraphs (d) and (e) and insert—

Paul Goggins | 456 c758 (Link to this contribution) I was not often able to say as much in Committee, but I am grateful for the support of my hon. Frien...

Mark Durkan | 456 c758 (Link to this contribution) The Minister might recall that when we discussed the issue in Committee we were not sure whether a p...

Paul Goggins | 456 c758 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is of course correct—we did discuss this issue in Committee, and he has come back...

Lembit Opik | 456 c759 (Link to this contribution) Let us take the Minister’s example. Suppose that he was sitting in the dentist’s chair, and the dent...

Paul Goggins | 456 c759 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making the point that was to be my final point. He is right ...

Sammy Wilson | 456 c758 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister accept that it is not only that a relationship has to be established? The second c...

Paul Goggins | 456 c758 (Link to this contribution) I will happily give way to an assiduous attender of Committee, if not of this afternoon’s debate.

Mark Durkan | 456 c759 (Link to this contribution) I shall try to be helpful to the hon. Gentleman, as I was earlier to the Minister. Does he agree tha...

Lembit Opik | 456 c753 (Link to this contribution) I understand what the Minister says is the intent of the Bill, but will he answer the following ques...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c753 (Link to this contribution) The Government are clear that we want devolution of criminal justice and policing matters by May 200...

Lembit Opik | 456 c754-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the Minister’s clarification, although I still suspect that the distinction betwee...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c753-4 (Link to this contribution) No, it is not the intention—nor is the power available to the Government—to do that. Under the propo...

Mark Durkan | 456 c755 (Link to this contribution) Is the real answer to the question of the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) not to be fo...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c755 (Link to this contribution) We have had a long discussion on this matter, and the hon. Gentleman raises those points at a late s...

Paul Goggins | 456 c756 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 32, page 1, line 12, leave out from ‘that’ to end of line 16 and insert"...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c755-6 (Link to this contribution) For the purposes of clarification, I repeat: this is a simple option for consideration by the Assemb...

Speaker | 456 c756 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments Nos. 33 to 35.

Paul Goggins | 456 c756-7 (Link to this contribution) This group of amendments may turn out to generate a rather less stimulating debate than the previous...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c752 (Link to this contribution) We have had discussions with a number of parties, and the Secretary of State has made his view clear...

Peter Robinson | 456 c752 (Link to this contribution) May I respond to the hon. Lady’s point about the lack of consultation? Her party was consulted when ...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c752 (Link to this contribution) The Government wish to introduce additional models for the House to consider, and to give the Assemb...

Lady Hermon | 456 c752 (Link to this contribution) I listened carefully to the Minister’s introductory remarks. He assured us that this was merely an a...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c751-2 (Link to this contribution) I will begin on a positive note by telling the hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr. McCrea) that I will...

Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 456 c749-51 (Link to this contribution) I should like to follow on from the issue that the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Bone) has dra...

Mark Durkan | 456 c753 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has still not explained why the Government are producing more vacuous models, at a rate...

Laurence Robertson | 456 c752 (Link to this contribution) This measure does not only address the possibility of the Assembly getting stuck over choosing a mod...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c753 (Link to this contribution) That point has been made by a number of Members, and although I was going to come on to it later, I ...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c748 (Link to this contribution) As ever, I would be happy to meet the hon. Gentleman to discuss the matter, because we have a reason...

Laurence Robertson | 456 c747-8 (Link to this contribution) We have had a very long debate on the new clause—and deservedly so, as it is extremely important. I ...

Peter Bone | 456 c749 (Link to this contribution) There has been a tendency for Northern Ireland laws and regulations to be rushed through this House....

Laurence Robertson | 456 c748 (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether the triple lock is in place with regard to the First and Deputy First Minister...

Peter Robinson | 456 c746-7 (Link to this contribution) I do not accept that there should be the two positions, as I think that the Assembly should be free ...

Mark Durkan | 456 c746 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has raised the matter. Clearly, he agrees with me that for the Gov...

Speaker | 456 c749 (Link to this contribution) Order. Has the hon. Gentleman finished his speech?

Peter Bone | 456 c749 (Link to this contribution) I am giving way to the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik).

Speaker | 456 c749 (Link to this contribution) In that case, it would be helpful if the hon. Gentleman could indicate that.

Lembit Opik | 456 c749 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman took me by surprise as well. Does he agree that, if the Minister’s assurances are...

Lembit Opik | 456 c729 (Link to this contribution) I would be happy for the Minister to intervene and to provide a definitive answer to this question. ...

Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 456 c729 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right to say that it would be wrong to devolve such powers to the Assembly aga...

Lembit Opik | 456 c729 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the hon. Gentleman is right, but that is not what the Bill appears to propose—

Lembit Opik | 456 c729 (Link to this contribution) The Minister’s words are reassuring, but this does not seem to be set out in the Bill—[Interruption....

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c728 (Link to this contribution) I will certainly look further into those points and respond to them during the course of the debate ...

Lembit Opik | 456 c728 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for committing to come back to me on the difference between—or similarity betwe...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c726-7 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I can help the hon. Gentleman. The Government made it clear in the discussion document t...

Laurence Robertson | 456 c727-8 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister finishes, will he return to the issue raised by the hon. Member for North Down (...

Peter Robinson | 456 c725 (Link to this contribution) To make it absolutely clear, does the Minister therefore agree with the Secretary of State, who said...

Mark Durkan | 456 c725 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is in essence confirming that the Secretary of State has withdrawn what he gave us all ...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c725 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has been with me in Committee upstairs and on the Floor of the House when we have...

Lady Hermon | 456 c725 (Link to this contribution) The new clause states:"““If it appears to the Secretary of State that there is no reasonable prospec...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c726 (Link to this contribution) Again, I thought that I had put that on the record. Obviously, such matters need repeating. Nothing ...

Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 456 c726 (Link to this contribution) On the timing of devolving the policing and justice powers, the Minister knows that some justice pow...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c724 (Link to this contribution) It is not the Government’s intention to impose a Minister on the Assembly in any way, shape or form....

Laurence Robertson | 456 c724 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could have another try. The House understands that the Government are taking the power to ...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c724 (Link to this contribution) As far as I am concerned, the Secretary of State does not have that power. The purpose of the new cl...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c724 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State’s role is confined to putting in place the model within which the Assembly ca...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c724 (Link to this contribution) I have answered the question: the Secretary of State will consider imposing a model, if the model is...

Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 456 c724 (Link to this contribution) And if the Assembly does not do so, who will impose the shadow Minister and the shadow deputy Minist...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c724 (Link to this contribution) The choice of those Ministers is for the Assembly. The Secretary of State will not choose the Minist...

Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 456 c724 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has not answered the question.

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c723 (Link to this contribution) That could well be a possible scenario. Again, I emphasise that it is for the Assembly to determine ...

Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 456 c723 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has still not answered the question. I am not talking about the Secretary of State impo...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c723 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State has the power to impose the model in new clause 5, which potentially includes...

Laurence Robertson | 456 c723 (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister therefore saying that if the Secretary of State, perhaps as a last resort, were to i...

Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 456 c723 (Link to this contribution) Although it is true to say that the powers allow the Secretary of State to impose a model, the Minis...

Lembit Opik | 456 c722 (Link to this contribution) I understand that. The Minister may want to come back to me, but I am asking him to explain why the ...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c722-3 (Link to this contribution) I will respond to the hon. Gentleman when we have checked the legality of the position. In essence, ...

Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 456 c723 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has mentioned the justice Minister and the deputy justice Minister. Will he make it abu...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c723 (Link to this contribution) The powers that the Secretary of State is taking to impose a model—the model in new clause 5 is the ...

Mark Durkan | 456 c721 (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister telling us that the Secretary of State has completely dropped the suggestion that wa...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c721-2 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State wants the Assembly to make the decisions on the devolution of criminal justic...

Lembit Opik | 456 c722 (Link to this contribution) On a question of definition, in the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2006 the Governm...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c722 (Link to this contribution) The new clause uses the phrase ““deputy Minister”” in line with the titles First Minister and Deputy...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c721 (Link to this contribution) No. The model in new clause 5 is in addition to those in the 1998 and the 2006 Acts. It is for the A...

Laurence Robertson | 456 c729 (Link to this contribution) Yes, subsection 2(1)(a) and (b). My reading of the new clause is that proposed new subsection (7A) w...

Peter Robinson | 456 c729 (Link to this contribution) It is in the proposed subsections 1(a) and (b).

Mark Durkan | 456 c731-2 (Link to this contribution) As the Minister said, new clause 5 introduces a fifth model on top of the four that the 2006 Act gav...

Lembit Opik | 456 c730 (Link to this contribution) We all agree on what we want the Bill to do, but there is a question over what it actually does. The...

Laurence Robertson | 456 c729 (Link to this contribution) I raised this issue with the Minister earlier, and he has kindly agreed to come back to us on it lat...

Lembit Opik | 456 c733 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that much of what he wants is contained in new clause 5? I am rea...

Mark Durkan | 456 c732 (Link to this contribution) As the Minister is aware, we are not dealing with that situation here; we are dealing with the situa...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c732 (Link to this contribution) How is that different from what goes on in Government generally? A Prime Minister appoints a Secreta...

Mark Durkan | 456 c733 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question, and I shall respond to it in the following way. Sinn Fe...

Gregory Campbell | 456 c732 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman talks about the Social Democratic and Labour party’s amendment circumventing the ...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c717 (Link to this contribution) Right hon. and hon. Members will be aware of the significant and historic progress that has been mad...

Speaker | 456 c716-7 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: New clause 2— Powers of the Secretary of ...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c716 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Lord Cormack | 456 c718 (Link to this contribution) I understand the Minister’s sense of relief and delight at the announcement, but it is by their frui...

Lady Hermon | 456 c718 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister for taking such an early intervention. Will he put on the record ...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c718 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady speaks for herself on these matters. I will put it on record that I very much welcome ...

Gregory Campbell | 456 c720 (Link to this contribution) The Minister speaks of the model for any future policing and justice Department. Does he accept that...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c719-20 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman that it is important that power sharing should follow as a ...

Lady Hermon | 456 c720-1 (Link to this contribution) The Minister said loudly and clearly to the House today that it is the Government’s intention to ““s...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c720 (Link to this contribution) In the St. Andrews agreement the Government expressed their wish to see the devolution of policing a...

Peter Robinson | 456 c718 (Link to this contribution) I join the Minister in welcoming progress when progress is made. However, I am sure that he agrees t...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c718 (Link to this contribution) I recognise the hon. Gentleman’s concerns. From my perspective, the statements and the work undertak...

Lembit Opik | 456 c719 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister accept that some of us genuinely believe that Sinn Fein and the IRA have moved for...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c719 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman paints a vision of how policing should operate in a normal society, and I look fo...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c721 (Link to this contribution) I think that the hon. Lady and I are saying the same thing, in the sense that the Government are com...

Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 456 c721 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister state clearly that in none of the models are the Government suggesting that they wi...

Mark Durkan | 456 c784-6 (Link to this contribution) I no longer understand what point the hon. Lady is trying to make. I was refuting a point that she m...

David Heath | 456 c765-6 (Link to this contribution) As I said when I raised clause 7 on Second Reading, it is rare for me to intervene in Northern Irela...

Peter Robinson | 456 c739 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is entirely correct and draws attention to a further element of the legislation that ...

Peter Bone | 456 c749 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman. The House would like to know the reason for the Government...

Laurence Robertson | 456 c776 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for returning with an amendment, which we are happy to support. Return...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c796 (Link to this contribution) I support the comments made by the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) in that the Government...

Alan Reid | 456 c760-2 (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 5 would allow the final decision about whether a trial is to proceed in front of a jur...

Lady Hermon | 456 c734 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. I have listened very carefully to him and I...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c729 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that my communications skills must be letting me down today. I thought that I had said t...

Peter Bone | 456 c724 (Link to this contribution) I must be missing something here. The Minister has not clearly stated that the Government do not res...

Paul Goggins | 456 c775 (Link to this contribution) I will happily give way to the hon. Gentleman, who has attended today’s debate and all the debates i...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 456 c725 (Link to this contribution) I think that I have said—even if not to the extent that hon. Members wish—that there is no power in ...

Peter Robinson | 456 c739-42 (Link to this contribution) I am not interpreting the legislation; I am indicating exactly what is in it. It is the hon. Gentlem...