Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Bill

I do not need to extend trust, because ultimately the Assembly is able, as is the First Minister, to exercise the power to ensure that the powers are not devolved. I agree that it is a bit nonsensical for the Government to have the power to set up a Department if powers are not to be devolved to it. The Minister’s rationale is that he would not be exercising those powers unless it was expected that, by doing so, he was assisting the process towards setting up a policing and justice Department that would have powers devolved to it. That would be the sensible exercise of his power. However, it is not for me to argue the Government’s case—that is up to the Minister. I am giving him the benefit of my view of what the legislation says; if I am wrong, he will put me right at the end of the debate. The reality is that the triple lock—it has also been described as a quadruple lock— is now firmly in place, so the powers cannot be devolved, unless, of course, the Government were to come back to this House with primary legislation, as they always can. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Foyle would encourage them to do so—although he has never explained to the House how policing and justice powers that were to be imposed on an Assembly could ever be exercised in defiance of it. With cross-community voting, it simply would not work. That is a further protection for the Assembly even beyond the triple lock mechanism. The triple lock mechanism is a sensible provision to have and I am glad that the Bill does not interfere with it. It is a vital element in providing confidence not only to the Unionist community, but to the community in Northern Ireland generally. I mentioned the DUP’s attempt to help the Government to get round the difficulty of there being a section of the Assembly in which people would not have confidence as regards the devolution of powers. We have to recognise that there will be individuals who will not gain the support of both sections of the community. I am therefore surprised that the model that the Government provide in the Bill is deficient in several ways. I agree with the hon. Member for Foyle that the Minister has made no case for why this Department should have a deputy Minister. I do not understand the Government’s logic in that regard. The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire brought up the question of the distinction between a junior Minister and a deputy Minister. To defend himself against that argument, the Minister prayed in aid the fact that there is a First Minister and a Deputy First Minister. That was not a good analogy to draw because, first, they are jointly elected in the sense of its being a joint office; secondly, they have the same joint control of that office; and thirdly, they are both in the Executive. The distinction between those Ministers and a junior Minister was drawn to show that junior Ministers were under the control of the Minister of any Department and therefore subservient. In bringing the status of deputy to the policing and justice Department, the Minister seems to be saying, ““This person is slightly more than the junior Minister””, but he has ended up confusing him with someone who has a joint office. I am not sure that the term, ““deputy””, is helpful, not least because there is no need for such an individual in the first place. The SDLP argued strongly in the Preparation for Government Committee that many of the policing and justice powers are already devolved, and there is some truth in that. Many policing powers are devolved to the Policing Board and to other bodies, and that applies to justice powers as well. So, we are left with a residue of policing and justice powers, with which any sane individual could amply cope alone, without a deputy or junior Minister. The need for the post does not exist. However, the matter becomes even more peculiar because the party from which the junior Minister comes does not have to pay anything for it when Departments are allocated. To some extent, it is a freebee. Although creating the Minister for the Department reduces the allocation under d’Hondt, that does not apply to the deputy Minister. There is no need for a deputy Minister. It causes confusion and is unsatisfactory. I do not understand the reason for the provision. The Democratic Unionist party did not advocate it and the SDLP—which might receive the office—clearly does not want it. Further problems are therefore likely to arise down the line. I want to consider an issue that, I am sure, the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire meant to raise. The new clause requires the Minister and deputy Minister to come from the two main designations. One might consider the overall Assembly and decide that if somebody with cross-community support was wanted for one of the posts, a member of the Alliance party would have a good chance of fitting the bill. That might not be the case, but, considering the matter from a distance, people are entitled to say that a centre party such as the Alliance party would have a better chance than most of gaining cross-community support—yet it is excluded from the measure. I should have thought that a bold defender of the centre ground, such as the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire, would be on his feet berating the Minister for excluding his colleagues in the Alliance party, but he failed to do it. I shall give him a chance to do it now, if he wishes.