Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Bill

No, it is not the intention—nor is the power available to the Government—to do that. Under the proposed legislation, the Government can establish a Department. That does not mean that the devolution of functions will occur, nor that the transfer will occur. They are subject to legislation that we have discussed previously in the House. I recognise that there has been considerable discussion about the issue we are focusing on. I have offered to meet the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr. Robertson) to take him through it, but we have been very clear about our position. If Members wish to force a Division, so be it, but I have been clear about where we stand. The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) mentioned concerns about cross-border co-operation on criminal justice matters. None of the actions or measures that we have discussed would diminish the fight against crime. The Organised Crime Task Force meets and its members come from Government Departments, the Police Service of Northern Ireland and the Policing Board. The Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, my hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale, East (Paul Goggins) chairs that meeting. There will be continuing discussion with the OCTF stakeholder group, and strategic co-operation on a north-south basis on crime issues will continue, too—as it should do. The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire and other Members made points about the title of deputy Minister for justice that is used in the new clause. Let me make an open admission: my initial response that there is a First Minister and a Deputy First Minister might not have been a particularly helpful contribution in terms of clarifying matters, but when people are thinking on their feet, occasionally the first thought that comes into their mind is the one that is expressed, and that was the first thought that came into my mind. The point that we need to make is that there is a clear distinction between the two roles of justice Minister and deputy justice Minister. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, the justice Minister will sit in the Executive, and the deputy will not but can be invited to do so. The precise role of the deputy is a matter for the justice Minister to decide in conjunction with the First and Deputy First Ministers. The justice Minister role will be well understood. The deputy’s role will be open for discussion; like my role as Minister of State to the Secretary of State, its responsibilities will be subject to discussion between Ministers. We have made a technical distinction between the terms junior Minister and deputy Minister. We wish to ensure that there is sufficient status for a post that has the important role of backing up the justice Minister. If the Assembly were to choose this model, the name is open to discussion; I am not tied to the title as that is not a big issue. The simple fact is that the model under discussion provides for a deputy. The deputy post is time limited. My hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) said that the Assembly would be stuck with a deputy post, but the post will be for a three-year period; it can disappear if the Assembly so wishes. I hope that that provides some reassurance to Members.