Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Bill

I should like to follow on from the issue that the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Bone) has drawn to our attention. My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson) has also raised the issue, in asking why there was so much haste in bringing the new clause before the House today. The matter was not debated in Committee, but it is nevertheless an important part of the debate this evening. The Minister would do a great service to the House by withdrawing the new clause, to allow the matter to be debated, to be brought before the House again and before the Committee to receive proper scrutiny. There would then be a clear understanding of the matter. My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East has tried to clarify our understanding of what the Minister is saying. The Minister has likewise tried a number of times to explain the issue, although he was very hesitant at the beginning, which perhaps lent weight to the suspicion in some people’s minds that there was something untoward involved. Whenever he was asked about it, the Minister did not give a clear answer and it had to be dragged out of him—it was like pulling teeth. He has done us a disservice, although I know that he did not do so intentionally. Nevertheless, he should withdraw the motion and new clause, and allow a proper decision process to take place. It is clear that the measure will not be put into effect immediately, and there is time for proper scrutiny and for him to have regard to due process. That is my request. The Minister mentioned the historic decision taken by Sinn Fein in Dublin a few days ago. I make it abundantly clear that there is an over-emphasis on what Sinn Fein actually decided. Anyone with any understanding of what was happening knew that Gerry Adams was going through a process and that the ard fheis was just a choreographed pantomime. He knew the outcome before he went to it. Had that organisation not known the outcome, it would never have gone through the process. However, let us take it as it is and make it abundantly clear that there was no clear unequivocal support for the police, the rule of law and the courts at that ard fheis. In fact, the support was qualified, and seriously qualified at that, and therefore seriously flawed. To gain the confidence of the community, every political party in a democracy, irrespective of who they are or their political complexion, cannot deviate from the wholesome and wholehearted support for the rule of law and those who exercise it—the police and the security forces in Northern Ireland. It was a pick-and-mix situation. It would be wrong for us to give the impression that there was a seismic shift in Sinn Fein’s support for policing and justice. The House should ask a simple question: does Sinn Fein support unequivocally the police, the rule of law, justice, the Crown and the judiciary today? The answer is no because there is the qualification that the Assembly has to recommence and justice and policing have to be devolved. The DUP does not accept that that support can be qualified. It must be unequivocal. The hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr. Robertson) rightly drew our attention to the McCartney case, which we have all mentioned in the past in the context of an expression of support. Those who destroyed quite a bit of the evidence were members of Sinn Fein as a political party. However, there are many other murders for which we want to ensure that the evidence is given and those responsible brought to justice. On new clause 5, my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East made it clear that the understanding is that the Department, the Minister and the Secretary of State are imposing the setting up of a Department, but that is not the case. After some time we found out that no powers are going to be devolved because there will be no Minister for the Department. That is solely part of the remit of the Northern Ireland Assembly and solely in its hands. The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) said that a serious situation could arise if some other Secretary of State adds on or changes the intent. That would be serious. There was a clear intent, made at the Dispatch Box on behalf of Her Majesty’s Government, on what the new clause means. Any messing around by the Government and this or any other Secretary of State would bring the house down. If anyone did want to mess around and bring the Assembly to its knees that would certainly be one way of doing it, but I do not think the Secretary of State wants that to happen. He wants to get the Assembly going rather than to bring it to its knees. When it comes to the devolution of policing and justice, a Minister must have the confidence of the community and thence the confidence of the Assembly. What reason is there for the fanciful idea of appointing a deputy Minister, other than financial gain for someone’s purse? In the past, it was said that the proposal for 108 Assembly Members was intended to get a few minority parties through the door. As for the 10 Ministries, which were a waste of public finance, the aim was to secure a few extra Ministers and sweeten the cherry. We are not interested in that, but we are interested in the fact that there can be no movement on the devolution of licensing and justice. The May 2008 date is aspirational, but let there be no mistake about this: it is in the St Andrews agreement—an agreement between the British Government and the Government of a foreign country, the Irish Republic—but it was not agreed by politicians elected democratically by the people of Northern Ireland, or by the parties that are represented in this House and would be elected to the Northern Ireland Assembly. As my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East said, the process will be condition-led and not calendar-led. Moreover, Sinn Fein members can humour their folks as much as they like, but anyone who imagines that Gerry Kelly, Martin McGuinness or any of their colleagues will become policing and justice Minister in Northern Ireland is living in a fantasy land. The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) is unabashed about his desire to circumvent the democratic wishes of the majority of the people. It seems that a policing and justice Minister must be forced on them whether or not he has their confidence. That may be the hon. Gentleman’s idea of democracy, but if there is to be a policing and justice Minister, he must command cross-community support. If the hon. Gentleman is such a supporter of the Belfast agreement, he should not want to change a jot or tittle of it, and therefore should not want to circumvent the democratic wish of the majority population of Northern Ireland. As for the hon. Gentleman’s own new clause 4, I know that he has a problem with national security and the gathering of intelligence by MI5. Subversive activity now extends worldwide: there is an international network or web of terrorism, involving more than links with the IRA. In such circumstances, national security should be in the hands of MI5: I see no problem with that. Let me end where I began. The Minister would do justice to the House, and indeed to himself, by withdrawing new clause 5. That would remove much of the suspicion that his opening remarks may have engendered.