UK Parliament / Open data

Identity Cards Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Wednesday, 23 November 2005, in the House of Lords.
Identity Cards Bill. Lords committee stage third day. Clauses 1-3 agreed to.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

675 c1625-96, 1698-720 

Session

2005-06

Department

Home Office

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Related items

Identity Cards Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory notes HL Bill 28-EN also published.
Wednesday, 19 October 2005
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1631 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to say that we will look at the subsection again, although we think that it is fit for th...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1631-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 39:"Page 2, line 24, after ““been”” insert ““legally””" The noble Baroness said...

Show all contributions (254)
Lord Peyton of Yeovil | 675 c1631 (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Ackner | 675 c1632 (Link to this contribution) Is there any justification for saying that a nickname is not legal?
Lord Renton | 675 c1632 (Link to this contribution) I wish to support this amendment. It seems to me that without it a great deal of the provisions in C...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1632-3 (Link to this contribution) I support this amendment so long as it does not jettison us into further bureaucracy around people’s...
Earl of Erroll | 675 c1632 (Link to this contribution) I was just thinking about the point made that we do not know what the Government intend. We are tryi...
Lord Lucas | 675 c1633 (Link to this contribution) When I want to deal with junk mail, spam or whatever else and find out where it is coming from, I em...
Countess of Mar | 675 c1633 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, is lucky to have had only three legal names. I have had five. I was...
Earl of Onslow | 675 c1633 (Link to this contribution) I am in a pickle here, one which applies probably only to Members of your Lordships’ House, who seem...
Lord Lucas | 675 c1629 (Link to this contribution) On a different issue, how does this subsection tie in with subsection (5)(h)? Suppose we are living ...
Earl of Erroll | 675 c1629 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has now greatly confused me. If one of the main purposes of this card is the prevention...
Lord Lucas | 675 c1630 (Link to this contribution) Yes, indeed. The noble Minister says that these matters will not be registered but they must be. If ...
Earl of Erroll | 675 c1629 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister sits down, may I say that if the national identity number is not on the card the...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1629 (Link to this contribution) I assure the noble Lord that the information that he has just referred to is not going to be a regis...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1630-1 (Link to this contribution) I am very happy to give that reassurance. I understand why a number of noble Lords are concerned, so...
Lord Peyton of Yeovil | 675 c1631 (Link to this contribution) It would be churlish and ungracious on my part if I did not say to the noble Baroness how grateful I...
Earl of Northesk | 675 c1630 (Link to this contribution) In addition to the occasions alluded to by my noble friend Lord Lucas, one fundamental aspect of the...
Lord Selsdon | 675 c1630 (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to intervene in this debate but, because I have a great interest in identity and ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1626-9 (Link to this contribution) I assure the noble Lord, Lord Peyton, that there is never a reason for him to seek to ingratiate him...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1625-26 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Mov...
Lord Peyton of Yeovil | 675 c1626 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 38A:"Page 2, line 21, leave out from ““(c. 29))”” to end of line." The noble Lo...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1626 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Peyton for tabling the amendment. As he points out, clarificat...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1626 (Link to this contribution) I too am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Peyton. His amendment will, at least, elicit clarity where...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 675 c1638-9 (Link to this contribution) The Minister said, quite reasonably, that the name should follow the name on a passport. There is a ...
Lord Selsdon | 675 c1641 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the Minister can confirm that my briefing was correct. I do not believe that any of the prop...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 675 c1641 (Link to this contribution) What happens when one has a name like Shirley or Evelyn which may be masculine or feminine?
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1641 (Link to this contribution) I want to make it clear that one cannot have two cards with different names. That may be what the no...
Lord Lucas | 675 c1641 (Link to this contribution) If the Minister has always found it possible to tell the sex of the people he meets on the streets o...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1639 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all noble Lords—about 13, I think—who have taken part in a debate on an amendment w...
Baroness Seccombe | 675 c1639-40 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 40:"Page 2, line 25, leave out paragraph (c)." The noble Baroness said: This pr...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1640 (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 40 would leave gender out of the list of registrable facts. Gender needs to be include...
Earl of Erroll | 675 c1640-1 (Link to this contribution) What the noble Lord has said could be very useful depending on the name that one uses. I have always...
Baroness Seccombe | 675 c1641 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for giving us this new information on the special arrangements that will be put...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1641 (Link to this contribution) I inadvertently said that the card will not contain a person’s gender but I meant to say that it wil...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 675 c1645-6 (Link to this contribution) I have sat with some incredulity through debates on previous amendments, not understanding the purpo...
Lord Waddington | 675 c1645 (Link to this contribution) I am puzzled by Clause (1)(7)(b) as, in the context of the scheme of the Bill, it does not seem to m...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 675 c1645 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend on the Front Bench referred to the current system for the registration of births, de...
Earl of Northesk | 675 c1642-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 41:"Page 2, line 26, leave out paragraph (d)." The noble Earl said: My focus in...
Baroness Seccombe | 675 c1643-5 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to my amendments in this group; namely, Amendments Nos. 42 and 45. The amendments are ...
Baroness Seccombe | 675 c1641 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that clarification. I need to read this in more depth, but now is not the t...
Lord Boston of Faversham | 675 c1642 (Link to this contribution) In calling Amendment No. 41, I advise the Committee that if it is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1636-7 (Link to this contribution) My brief does not provide me with a response to that point. However, this is a serious point and I s...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1636 (Link to this contribution) If that is all the noble Lord is referred to as, his is a very respectful family.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 675 c1633-4 (Link to this contribution) This is an important amendment, although I do not understand how it would work. Like other noble Lor...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 675 c1634 (Link to this contribution) Has the noble Baroness consulted the record of the discussion of the regulatory reform order which w...
Lord Crickhowell | 675 c1634-5 (Link to this contribution) I shall arch over the point that most Members of the House become the younger sons of Marquises almo...
Earl of Northesk | 675 c1635 (Link to this contribution) I had proposed to deal with this matter later, in the context of Amendment No. 81 tabled in my name....
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 675 c1635-6 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend Lady Anelay raised an extremely important point. I shall be interested to hear how t...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1636 (Link to this contribution) Yes, it is me—sod’s law. I have enjoyed this rather entertaining thrash round the issue of names, an...
Lord Lucas | 675 c1638 (Link to this contribution) Am I right in understanding that one has to put down the name of one’s choice, that other names are ...
Earl of Onslow | 675 c1637 (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister confirming that this is really a greater method than we had before of controlling pe...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 675 c1637-8 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for extending the debate but it is a difficult issue. Those who look in the Law Reports ...
Lord Ackner | 675 c1638 (Link to this contribution) I still have not understood the position. Perhaps I may give a well known example. One of my brother...
Lord Selsdon | 675 c1637 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister consider my point that if people have a passport the name that should be used is t...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1637 (Link to this contribution) We want people to use the same name as that in the passport as that would make sense. I said that pa...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1638 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that that will be the case. I hesitate to say it, but I believe that the passport service ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1638 (Link to this contribution) I shall try to pin it down. In those circumstances the person should register as Francis, but he cou...
Countess of Mar | 675 c1638 (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Lord confirm that those issuing the passports will understand the name that we wish t...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 675 c1654-5 (Link to this contribution) I think the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, has taken us down a very dangerous road indeed. It may very well...
Earl of Erroll | 675 c1654 (Link to this contribution) I heartily agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lucas; I think trying to behave like King Canute is total...
Lord Gould of Brookwood | 675 c1655 (Link to this contribution) It is time that we had some common sense here. It is true that there are concerns about the future, ...
Lord Crickhowell | 675 c1655 (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend’s amendment. My noble friend Lord Lucas took a long look into the future w...
Lord Lucas | 675 c1653 (Link to this contribution) I share the concerns of both noble Lords who have spoken, but I think that we are looking at this in...
Lord Lucas | 675 c1654 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that all we are doing in this Bill is stopping one particular way in which surveillan...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1653-4 (Link to this contribution) I have great respect for the views of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, on all this, but does he not think...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1651-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 43:"Page 2, line 28, at end insert ““, other than DNA information””" The noble ...
Earl of Northesk | 675 c1651 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate, not least for the sympathy tha...
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 675 c1647 (Link to this contribution) Echoing the noble Lord, Lord Williams, I recall two well attested cases, first of the Times correspo...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c1646-7 (Link to this contribution) I have some sympathy with the amendment tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Northesk. If we track the dra...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1647-8 (Link to this contribution) I shall deal with the amendments in turn. Amendment No. 41 removes the date and place of birth, as w...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 675 c1647 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister replies, I do apologise for bringing births into my argument. I realise that the...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1648-9 (Link to this contribution) I do not have an answer immediately to hand. The noble Lord may well have raised a good question, an...
Lord Crickhowell | 675 c1648 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister give way? I may have misheard him, but I think he said that the date of death had ...
Lord Crickhowell | 675 c1646 (Link to this contribution) This is not of course information that may be recorded in the register under Schedule 1. Presumably ...
Countess of Mar | 675 c1646 (Link to this contribution) Is not the answer to the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy, that babies will be regis...
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy | 675 c1646 (Link to this contribution) Often, in the case of something like the tsunami or the earthquake in Pakistan, you are never going ...
Earl of Erroll | 675 c1646 (Link to this contribution) I thought that one of the vaunted purposes of the identity cards and the national identity register ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1650-1 (Link to this contribution) I would have thought it was fairly clear that when the individual is alive it is down to that indivi...
Earl of Onslow | 675 c1650 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the noble Lord can help me, because not surprisingly I am getting in a muddle. Who has to pr...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1650 (Link to this contribution) No, two registrations do not have to be made. The GRO will inform the agency, so there is only one n...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 675 c1650 (Link to this contribution) Did the Minister say that it is necessary to register a death with the registrar of births, deaths a...
Lord Macaulay of Bragar | 675 c1651 (Link to this contribution) In relation to subsection (7)(d) are we not making a mountain out of molehill? The word ““and””, whi...
Earl of Erroll | 675 c1649 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree, by the way, that the date of death should be held. It is only logical and sensible...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1650 (Link to this contribution) Of course I will happily write to the noble Earl on that point. The wording is consistent. If the no...
Earl of Northesk | 675 c1650 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that I heard the Minister apply his mind to an issue that causes me very serious conce...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c1650 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, that the drafting of the Bill is not very felicitous a...
Lord Waddington | 675 c1649-50 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to make a meal of this, but the Minister cannot say that the draughtsmanship is felici...
Baroness Seccombe | 675 c1660-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 44:"Page 2, line 28, at end insert ““, the inclusion of which in an individual’s...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1660 (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. Of course, it has shown that the Ministe...
Earl of Erroll | 675 c1660 (Link to this contribution) Is that prohibition actually in the Bill? If not, it should be.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1660 (Link to this contribution) Clause 43 provides an adequate degree of certainty as to what external characteristics fall within t...
Earl of Erroll | 675 c1659 (Link to this contribution) I think that there may be an illogical inconsistency. It is a clever way of defining external charac...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1659-60 (Link to this contribution) The point is that we cannot take samples. We do not take a sample of the iris when it is recorded. I...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1659 (Link to this contribution) There would have to be new legislation. There is no order-making power in this Bill. We have gone th...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 675 c1659 (Link to this contribution) I accept that there is no power in the Bill to take DNA samples. If the Government wished to have su...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1657-9 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I shall be able to put certain hares to rest. The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, is for the ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1657 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, made a general remark about the posture adopted by noble Lords on t...
Lord Marlesford | 675 c1656-7 (Link to this contribution) I think I see where my noble friend Lady Anelay and the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, are co...
Lord Gould of Brookwood | 675 c1656 (Link to this contribution) My point would be there, although that suggests that 10 years down the line more legislation might b...
Earl of Erroll | 675 c1655-6 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but it was. It would have been unthinkable 10 years ago that the Government should have ...
Lord Gould of Brookwood | 675 c1656 (Link to this contribution) I was responding to the comments made in relation to Orwell and surveillance, which seemed to me to ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1656 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord sits down, I should like to follow up what the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, sa...
Lord Gould of Brookwood | 675 c1656 (Link to this contribution) I simply say that it was not I who was going further. Let us keep this matter grounded on a common-s...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 675 c1656 (Link to this contribution) In the context of Orwellian situations, I believe that the noble Lord was referring to me. Of course...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1655 (Link to this contribution) Is the noble Lord, Lord Gould of Brookwood, therefore saying that he wants DNA on the register?
Lord Gould of Brookwood | 675 c1655 (Link to this contribution) It may have been the point of the amendment, but it was not the point of the comments that followed ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1662-3 (Link to this contribution) I can envisage a situation where by negative order one was allowed to register voluntarily various p...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1663 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is being her reasonable self, but I am a cynical old Liberal looking to the unreasonabl...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1663 (Link to this contribution) Only physical characteristics are capable of being used to identify a person, so I cannot imagine he...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1663 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to press the Minister again, but it is important to understand the ambit of the legislati...
Earl of Erroll | 675 c1662 (Link to this contribution) Would it not be sensible to record height on the card? If one is trying to identify someone with it,...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1661-2 (Link to this contribution) In relation to being right or wrong the answer is yes and no. The noble Lord is absolutely right to ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1662 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister gives up on this amendment, I shall ask one more question. Does she think that o...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1662 (Link to this contribution) In due course, we may have the joy of debating that matter if anyone ever wants to bring forward an ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1661 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Seccombe, for tabling the amendment, as I believe it, or s...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1669 (Link to this contribution) The short answer to the question asked by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell, is no. The answer ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1669 (Link to this contribution) I totally accept that, but the Government are aiming, as the Minister said at Second Reading, to mak...
Lord Blackwell | 675 c1666-7 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the House for not having been able to speak on the Second Reading of this Bill, but t...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 675 c1666 (Link to this contribution) It is probably generally known by the Committee now that I am totally opposed to this Bill. I would ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1667-8 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps it would be convenient to deal with that point first, but I am happy to give the affirmation...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1668 (Link to this contribution) I am going to sit firmly in my seat until everyone has finished.
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 675 c1668 (Link to this contribution) Is it more convenient for the Minister to answer the noble Lord now, or may I intervene quickly?
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 675 c1669 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for dealing with my point about the European Union and any powers that it might...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 675 c1668-9 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister. One thing that concerns me when she refers to validation and ver...
Earl of Northesk | 675 c1665-6 (Link to this contribution) I shall add one small point about commercial access to the register. The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, to...
Earl of Onslow | 675 c1665 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend on the Front Bench has raised an extremely serious point: the Government could by la...
Earl of Erroll | 675 c1665 (Link to this contribution) I shall make a couple of points arising out of ministerial responses. They relate to the purpose of ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1663 (Link to this contribution) I am quite happy to take it away and think about it. I am happy to write to noble Lords at greater l...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1663 (Link to this contribution) I shall make a final interjection and promise to make no more. I wonder whether the Minister is not ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1663 (Link to this contribution) They would have to be physical characteristics which were capable of identifying a person. If someon...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1665 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, for initiating this debate. One of the problems wi...
Baroness Seccombe | 675 c1664 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to those noble Lords who have offered support for this amendment. A point about height...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 675 c1663-4 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, has something of a point. We have to be careful about legislation cre...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1690 (Link to this contribution) I want to make it plain that I am saying that Clause 2(3) relates to negative resolution. However, i...
Earl of Northesk | 675 c1691 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 53:"Page 3, line 11, leave out subsection (4)." The noble Earl said: In moving ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1690-1 (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendments Nos. 51 and 52 ...
Lord Crickhowell | 675 c1692 (Link to this contribution) It is a pity that Amendment No. 53 is not grouped with Amendment No. 55 as they are closely connecte...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1691-2 (Link to this contribution) My name is added to Amendment No. 53. The noble Earl, Lord Northesk, made all the points that I woul...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1692-3 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I shall be able to assist the Committee. Clause 2(4) is intended to provide the flexibil...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1692 (Link to this contribution) I shall not be tempted to respond to my noble friend’s remarks on Amendment No. 55 just as the dinne...
Lord Crickhowell | 675 c1693-4 (Link to this contribution) I anticipated that some quite good reasons might be advanced, and I understand the reasons why they ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1694 (Link to this contribution) I tried to give an example of when someone could not claim entitlement under the provisions but it w...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1669 (Link to this contribution) But Clause 18 would not come to his or her aid, as the Minister was saying.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 675 c1670 (Link to this contribution) The Minister did not respond to what I said about the European Union.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1670 (Link to this contribution) I beg the noble Lord’s pardon. I did not reply to him—but I understand the point that he makes about...
Baroness Seccombe | 675 c1670-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 46:"Page 2, line 35, leave out ““individual”” and insert ““United Kingdom citize...
Lord Renton | 675 c1672 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend has made an important point. The purpose of this Bill, although it is not well state...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 675 c1672-3 (Link to this contribution) These two amendments together are really helpful in probing this Bill. Against that background, I sh...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1673 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I will be able to assist the noble Baroness. We need to make it clear that the scheme is...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1669 (Link to this contribution) We say that even when the scheme becomes compulsory, it will still mean that an individual would hav...
Baroness Morris of Bolton | 675 c1678 (Link to this contribution) I support Amendments Nos. 48 and 64 to which my name is added, and I share the concerns so powerfull...
Baroness Stern | 675 c1678-9 (Link to this contribution) I support this amendment. As the Minister will know, the Joint Committee on Human Rights, of which I...
Baroness Walmsley | 675 c1675-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 48:"Page 2, line 39, leave out ““16”” and insert ““18””" The noble Baroness sai...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1677-8 (Link to this contribution) My name appears on the amendment, and I was delighted when the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, agreed...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1679-82 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I will be able to assist the House. I know that the four noble Baronesses who spoke to t...
Lord Northbourne | 675 c1683 (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Baroness allow me to make a short intervention, which may come better from the Cross ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1679 (Link to this contribution) I should hate for this amendment to be proposed with no masculine affirmation of its merit or indeed...
Earl of Northesk | 675 c1679 (Link to this contribution) I support these amendments as well. Having been actively involved with the scrutiny of the database ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1673-5 (Link to this contribution) I fundamentally disagree with the noble Lord’s view. The scheme is aimed at UK residents irrespectiv...
Baroness Seccombe | 675 c1675 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the support of the noble Lord, Lord Renton, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord L...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1685-6 (Link to this contribution) This amendment seems to be a bit of a curate’s egg. As long as the Bill retains the voluntary system...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 675 c1686 (Link to this contribution) As probably the oldest person in the Chamber at the present time, I believe we should think very car...
Earl of Onslow | 675 c1686 (Link to this contribution) If the age were to be 70, it would have the effect of an awful lot of people not having to go and re...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1683 (Link to this contribution) But does that not undermine—I shall not say ““give the lie”” as that is too strong a phrase—the whol...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1683-4 (Link to this contribution) I have set out the issue in relation to passports. Noble Lords will know that there have been a numb...
Baroness Walmsley | 675 c1684 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland, for her reply, and those noble Lords who spoke in this de...
Baroness Seccombe | 675 c1684-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 49:"Page 2, line 39, after ““16”” insert ““but is below the age of 70””" The no...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1683 (Link to this contribution) Of course I cannot bind my successors in title. It is for the noble Baroness opposite and the noble ...
Countess of Mar | 675 c1683 (Link to this contribution) At the moment, this is an entitlement and not a requirement. Can the Minister confirm that the situa...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1683 (Link to this contribution) At present, this is not a compulsory process. Once it becomes compulsory, all those who fall within ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1690 (Link to this contribution) In view of what I have just heard from the noble Lord, I should make it absolutely clear that the af...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1690 (Link to this contribution) My Amendment No. 65 would require all orders made by the Secretary of State under this section to be...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1689-90 (Link to this contribution) I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, that we want to take Parliament with us. Indeed, we do n...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1690 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the Minister’s explanation of the Government’s position. She did not mention Claus...
Earl of Onslow | 675 c1688-9 (Link to this contribution) This Bill goes so far against the grain of our historical traditions, the fact that the Government h...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 675 c1689 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that the Government would want to go along with this proposal. We all know—we have de...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1687 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 50:"Page 3, line 1, leave out ““Regulations made by the Secretary of State may””...
Baroness Seccombe | 675 c1688 (Link to this contribution) I support these amendments, which provide a simple change that will ensure that all orders under Cla...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1686-7 (Link to this contribution) Having described 90 year-olds as old fogeys, the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, runs the risk of incurri...
Baroness Seccombe | 675 c1687 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for his reply. I accept that my amendment did not find favour with man...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1720 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1718 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that response. I believe that the reference to principal residence is necessary an...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1717-8 (Link to this contribution) It will not surprise the noble Lord that I cannot accept either of his Amendments Nos. 73 and 80A. I...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1716-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 73:"Page 4, line 12, leave out subsections (5) to (7)." The noble Lord said: In...
Lord Geddes | 675 c1716 (Link to this contribution) Before calling Amendment No. 73, I must advise the Committee that if it is agreed to I shall be unab...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1719-20 (Link to this contribution) For the time being, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendm...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1719 (Link to this contribution) I shall congratulate them on their brevity and no more.
Countess of Mar | 675 c1718-9 (Link to this contribution) Is it not significant that during our discussions this afternoon the only interventions that we have...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1718 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord knows that I share his aspiration about citizens’ law. I spend a good deal of my prof...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1716 (Link to this contribution) I also thought that that is what I said, and when you read Hansard you will find that that is exactl...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1716 (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendments Nos. 71 and 72 ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1716 (Link to this contribution) I was not seeking an apology; I was scoring points late at night. I shall consider carefully what t...
Earl of Northesk | 675 c1715 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has provoked a thought in my mind. I had pursued the Bill assuming that two distinct ...
Earl of Northesk | 675 c1715 (Link to this contribution) It is easy to explain; I do not think that the noble Lord should imagine that it is complicated. As ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1715 (Link to this contribution) I am trying to establish the difference between validation and verification. Perhaps the noble Earl ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1714 (Link to this contribution) I assure the noble Lord that I am certainly not asking for damages where there is no damage.
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1714-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that helpful clarification. As I say, I am not convinced that it is desirable to g...
Earl of Northesk | 675 c1714 (Link to this contribution) This amendment raises my hackles in respect of a matter that we debated on the first Committee day: ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1714 (Link to this contribution) I imagine that the amendment is designed to ensure that the Secretary of State will take care in ens...
Earl of Erroll | 675 c1713-4 (Link to this contribution) This is an interesting matter about liability, in relation to which many problems arise with ID card...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1713 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 70:"Page 4, line 8, at end insert—" ““(   )   In cases where subsection (3) do...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1713 (Link to this contribution) On that happy note, with the added rider that we must ensure that the information on the register is...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1712-3 (Link to this contribution) Since the noble Baroness has almost invited an answer from me, as someone who takes a great interest...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1712 (Link to this contribution) The Minister will be very pleased to hear me say that I do not take it that he has given a commitmen...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1712 (Link to this contribution) That is an interesting thought, and it is perhaps a little unusual for the noble Earl to argue the c...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1710-1 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, on his trenchant views on this subject. I am enjoying hi...
Earl of Onslow | 675 c1709-10 (Link to this contribution) The rather depressing thing about this amendment is that it lights up something I hoped one would be...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1711-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for almost showing sympathy towards the amendment. I dread to think ho...
Earl of Onslow | 675 c1712 (Link to this contribution) If that is the case and if the Minister was saying, which I think he was, that we should let the thi...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1707-8 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord sits down, I would like to add that I waited to hear what he was going to say ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1708 (Link to this contribution) I may well be reliant on a note to answer that point rather than corresponding with the noble Lord. ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1708 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has distinguished between the register and the cards of which the register is the regis...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1708 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that late intervention by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, because I have...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1708-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 69:"Page 4, line 8, at end insert—" ““(   )   Where a new identity is entered ...
Lord Geddes | 675 c1704-5 (Link to this contribution) Before calling Amendment No. 60, I must advise the Committee that if it is agreed to, I will not be ...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1703-4 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to Members of the Committee who have given support to this amendment, and thank the Mi...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1700-3 (Link to this contribution) I shall go very carefully through the various amendments and their implications, and the effect of t...
Earl of Erroll | 675 c1700 (Link to this contribution) This amendment is entirely logical, because if one does not know what is on the register, how does o...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1706-7 (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 67 would remove the ability to record the technical information necessary to ensure th...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1705-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 67:"Page 3, line 33, leave out paragraph (c)." The noble Baroness said: In movi...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1699 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendment No. 80, which is grouped with Amendments Nos. 55, 167—which stands in my ...
Lord Crickhowell | 675 c1699-700 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, during the short debate on Amendment No. 53, we discovered how wide the discretionary powe...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1696 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. In moving this Motion, I suggest that the Committee stag...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1698-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 55:"Page 3, line 16, at end insert—" ““(   )   Details of any entry made in th...
Lord Crickhowell | 675 c1696 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to delay noble Lords from their dinner for a few seconds more. It seems to me that with s...
Earl of Onslow | 675 c1696 (Link to this contribution) If you do not carry your identity card when it is made compulsory and if, because you do not carry i...
Earl of Northesk | 675 c1696 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this short debate. My noble friend Lord Cri...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1695 (Link to this contribution) The police records already have a national database in relation to the PNC. All that information is ...
Earl of Onslow | 675 c1695 (Link to this contribution) Another question has been bubbling up in the back of my mind. The noble Baroness is saying that peop...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1695-6 (Link to this contribution) We in Parliament are entitled to determine whether something is criminal or civil. We collectively a...
Earl of Onslow | 675 c1695 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I did not make myself clear. If it is compulsory to have an identity card it cannot but attr...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1694 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can explore the example given by the noble Baroness about the person aged 15 and three-qua...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1694-5 (Link to this contribution) No. If your Lordships consider the practicality of when that data are given, the information could b...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1695 (Link to this contribution) Having heard the noble Baroness, I certainly do not want to strike out the clause because there are ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1638 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, because I think he understands the situation well....
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1668 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for giving way. She said that my fears were unfounded by pointing to Clause 18,...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1694 (Link to this contribution) I understood most of what the noble Baroness said, and can see the force of it. However, Clause 2(4)...
Earl of Onslow | 675 c1716 (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Lord confirm that his interpretation is the same as that of the noble Lord, Lord Phil...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1715 (Link to this contribution) To aid the noble Earl I shall write to him on the matter.
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1712 (Link to this contribution) When I was reading the clauses, I assumed that there might be an order or something that there is no...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1629-30 (Link to this contribution) I want to clarify something that is obviously very important and central to the Bill. The explanatio...
Earl of Onslow | 675 c1638 (Link to this contribution) The Minister said to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, that his fellow judge, the late Franci...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1652-3 (Link to this contribution) My Amendment No. 270 has apparently been left out of the groupings list, and it seems appropriate to...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1664-5 (Link to this contribution) I make it clear immediately that I do not intend to seek the opinion of the Committee on whether Cla...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1715-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for responding. He was naughty in that he ignored my admission in movi...
Lord Selsdon | 675 c1634 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could help the Minister. I raised the problems with my own name on the first day. I also d...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1669-70 (Link to this contribution) We say that Clause 18 protection will still apply. Perhaps it would be helpful if I wrote to the nob...

Subjects

Disclosure of information
Data protection
Criminal records
Biometrics
Death
Age
Fraud
Fingerprints
ICT
Eligibility
Immigration controls
Genetics
Identity cards
Gender
Personal records
Personation
National identity register
Proof of identity
Passports
Registration
Registration of births, deaths, marriages and civil partnerships
Personal names

Legislation

Identity Cards Bill 2005-06

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
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