UK Parliament / Open data

Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill

Debate on bills and Committee of the Whole House (HC) on Tuesday, 19 January 2010, in the House of Commons.
Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill. Committee stage third day. Programme motion (No. 3) on proceedings in Committee, varying the order for Programme motion (No. 2). Debated and agreed to on division (290 votes to 235). Clause 24, discussed with new clause 68, debated and agreed to. Clause 25 agreed to. Clause 26, discussed with new clause 59, agreed to. Clauses 27, 28, 35 agreed to. Schedule 5 agreed to as amended. New clause 57 agreed to.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

504 c169-271 

Session

2009-10

Department

Ministry of Justice

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

Programme motions
New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Commons chamber

Related items

Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill. Explanatory Notes Bill 4-EN also published.
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Draft Constitutional Renewal Bill. Government response to the Public Administration Select Committee's tenth report of Session 2007-08 (HC 499).
Monday, 20 July 2009
Command papers
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Draft Constitutional Renewal Bill. Government response to the Joint Committee on the Draft Constitutional Renewal Bill first report of session 2007-08 (HC 551 2007-08).
Monday, 20 July 2009
Command papers
House of Lords
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Legislative scrutiny: Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill; Video Recordings Bill. Human Rights Joint Select Committee fourth report with formal minutes and evidence.
Tuesday, 12 January 2010
Parliamentary committees
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House of Commons

Show all related items (6)

Proceeding contributions

Bob Spink | 504 c240-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, but I am an independent MP, not a UKIP MP, as he well kno...
Denis MacShane | 504 c240 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee. I referred to 1 per cent. of Europe...

Show all contributions (341)
Denis MacShane | 504 c241 (Link to this contribution) Well, we are debating referendums, and there is no country keener on referendums than Switzerland.
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c241 (Link to this contribution) Order. The right hon. Gentleman may have a captive audience, but I really do think that he is going ...
Denis MacShane | 504 c241 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for insinuating that the hon. Gentleman was still a member of UKIP. He has "re-ratted", ...
Edward Leigh | 504 c237 (Link to this contribution) There is a suspicion, which I am sure is entirely cynical, that the Liberals take that stance becaus...
Ed Davey | 504 c237 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has taken a principled stance on this issue over many years. At the time of the M...
Ed Davey | 504 c237-8 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. The real reason why the Conservatives want to debate referendums tonight, despite their emba...
Ed Davey | 504 c238-9 (Link to this contribution) No, not yet. The Conservatives seem to want to commit us to referendums on almost any conceivable Eu...
Chris Bryant | 504 c239 (Link to this contribution) Go on—if you can remember them.
Denis MacShane | 504 c239 (Link to this contribution) It is pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey), who, to my satisfact...
Denis MacShane | 504 c239-40 (Link to this contribution) I even know all the capitals, which is more than many Europe Ministers past and present can deliver....
Edward Leigh | 504 c240 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is being disingenuous if he is suggesting that only 1 per cent. of the powe...
William Cash | 504 c241 (Link to this contribution) I simply want to ask my old combatant on these matters whether, given what he has just said, he agre...
Denis MacShane | 504 c241-2 (Link to this contribution) It is to the honour of our Parliament that since 1945, under different Administrations, we have init...
Denis MacShane | 504 c241 (Link to this contribution) It is a gerund. Keep your hair on. The point that Swiss colleagues made was that, more and more, th...
Denis MacShane | 504 c241 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is not a dictator. Is he a demagogue? Let us find out.
Denis MacShane | 504 c233 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Keith Vaz | 504 c233 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to give way to one of my successors as Minister for Europe.
William Cash | 504 c232 (Link to this contribution) I instigated the Maastricht referendum campaign, which got more than 500,000 signatures on the petit...
Keith Vaz | 504 c232-3 (Link to this contribution) That is the principled view of the hon. Gentleman. He has always held that view, not just about the ...
David Winnick | 504 c231 (Link to this contribution) Is there a certain irony here? If the argument is that power from the House has been transferred in ...
Keith Vaz | 504 c231 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is being very modest in describing himself as a humble Member of the House. He probab...
John Hemming | 504 c231 (Link to this contribution) On the question of how a decision is made, I have some sympathy with the proposal from the Conservat...
Keith Vaz | 504 c232 (Link to this contribution) I think the hon. Gentleman would find that the cry from the Benches would be, "Too many courts and t...
Keith Vaz | 504 c231 (Link to this contribution) But he is that distinguished. At the end of the day, we want to make the decision on the extent of ...
William Cash | 504 c230 (Link to this contribution) I do not agree that the matter would be best dealt with by the courts, not least because of declarat...
Keith Vaz | 504 c231 (Link to this contribution) That is exactly the problem that we face: two distinguished lawyers, a Queen's Counsel and a former ...
Edward Leigh | 504 c231 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is making a very good speech and I agree with much of it. The problem is to...
Keith Vaz | 504 c231 (Link to this contribution) I agree. That is the problem with the solution on offer. We need to determine the circumstances in w...
Mark Francois | 504 c229 (Link to this contribution) I have just given way to the hon. Gentleman, and I shall listen carefully to his speech. I hope that...
Keith Vaz | 504 c229-30 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak only briefly in this debate, because I know that any discussion on the European Union ...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c230 (Link to this contribution) May I suggest that the answer to the right hon. Gentleman's question is that in the first instance, ...
Keith Vaz | 504 c230 (Link to this contribution) That is an interesting point. I am not sure that we heard it necessarily from the Front Bench. I kno...
Ed Davey | 504 c236 (Link to this contribution) We are saying that they should be consulted, but on a question on which we think they want to be con...
Ed Davey | 504 c236 (Link to this contribution) As I said at the beginning of my remarks, we believe that there should be a referendum on the future...
Geoffrey Cox | 504 c236 (Link to this contribution) Why does the one exclude the other? Why can we not have the referendum on the in-out question, and w...
Ed Davey | 504 c235-6 (Link to this contribution) No, because we need a clearer question about Britain's membership of the EU. I hope that that is hel...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c236 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman help me in this respect? He has argued against the amendment on legalistic g...
Ed Davey | 504 c235 (Link to this contribution) I shall make it clear from the start—I hope this will put the hon. Member for Rayleigh (Mr. Francois...
William Cash | 504 c235 (Link to this contribution) Given what the leader of the Liberal Democrats has said about a proposed question, would the hon. Ge...
Keith Vaz | 504 c234-5 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is why the official Opposition have brought these amendment...
Richard Shepherd | 504 c237 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his remarks. Parties change their positions; I accept that. ...
Richard Shepherd | 504 c234 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman said that we should have a once-and-for-all referendum, but I remember what...
Keith Vaz | 504 c234 (Link to this contribution) That is absolutely right. Otherwise, what on earth are we doing here discussing these matters at 7.5...
David Winnick | 504 c234 (Link to this contribution) I am very pleased that my right hon. Friend has been so generous with his time, and I am intervening...
Keith Vaz | 504 c233-4 (Link to this contribution) So far, absolutely. However, after his stunning performance at the Dispatch Box, I think that that t...
Denis MacShane | 504 c233 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. Does he agree that every previous Opposition party hoping to ...
Keith Vaz | 504 c233 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. He speaks with great authority, being the longest serving ...
Mark Francois | 504 c233 (Link to this contribution) I think that it was around a dozen.
Mark Francois | 504 c225-6 (Link to this contribution) I will answer in my own way. I very much hope that the hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (...
Keith Vaz | 504 c226 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mark Francois | 504 c226 (Link to this contribution) By putting in this referendum lock, the amendment means that if ever there were a future treaty that...
Mark Francois | 504 c226 (Link to this contribution) I would like to make just one more paragraph's-worth of progress and then I shall give way to the ri...
Mark Francois | 504 c226 (Link to this contribution) Yes. If my hon. Friend looks at the amendment paper, he will see that we have attempted to do that i...
Lord Soames of Fletching | 504 c226 (Link to this contribution) On that very important point, will my hon. Friend define for me what he means by "competences"?
Edward Leigh | 504 c226 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend mentioned the Irish constitution, whose guarantee is a cast-iron one, because it is p...
Mark Francois | 504 c227 (Link to this contribution) I understand the question that I am being asked.
Keith Vaz | 504 c226 (Link to this contribution) I am not, in principle, against the idea of referendums relating to the European Union; in fact, I a...
Mark Francois | 504 c227 (Link to this contribution) Thank you. Our amendment proposes that if ever there were a future treaty that transferred powers, a...
Mark Francois | 504 c227-8 (Link to this contribution) As my hon. Friend will know, I am talking now about an amendment that concerns future treaties. I do...
William Cash | 504 c227 (Link to this contribution) This amendment has, of course, been tabled by our Front Benchers and my hon. Friend will, I am sure,...
Lord Willis of Knaresborough | 504 c228 (Link to this contribution) As we are talking about inconsistencies—and it is important to recognise that my hon. Friend the Mem...
Mark Francois | 504 c228 (Link to this contribution) Right on cue, another one of them bobs up.
Mark Francois | 504 c228 (Link to this contribution) I think that that was more of a rant than an intervention. This is a guarantee that would be enshrin...
Mark Francois | 504 c229 (Link to this contribution) If a Government had enshrined in law the guarantee that any future transfer of powers in a treaty wo...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c228-9 (Link to this contribution) One of the difficulties that will always arise is the question of how one compels a Government to do...
Mark Francois | 504 c229 (Link to this contribution) Given what has happened in the past few years, if this provision were to be put into law and a Gover...
Ed Davey | 504 c229 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman explain the difference between a statutory protection and a constitutional p...
Ed Davey | 504 c229 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mark Francois | 504 c225 (Link to this contribution) These amendments and new clause 68 would ensure that any future treaty that transferred areas of pow...
Mark Francois | 504 c224 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 125, page 12, line 42, at end insert—
Mark Francois | 504 c225 (Link to this contribution) We are seeking to make it an assurance tonight by amending this Bill here and now.
Dominic Grieve | 504 c219 (Link to this contribution) I have had the opportunity of listening to the Minister, but although I do not doubt his sincerity, ...
David Howarth | 504 c219 (Link to this contribution) We have had a good debate, and I thank the Minister for his kind remarks. A series of interesting po...
Chris Bryant | 504 c219 (Link to this contribution) No, I am not giving way, as we have already had quite a lengthy debate. [Interruption.] The hon. Mem...
Chris Bryant | 504 c218 (Link to this contribution) I am minded not to give way, if the hon. Gentleman does not mind.
Chris Bryant | 504 c218 (Link to this contribution) Well, some criticism has been made, so let me clarify that; there have been previous debates on this...
David Howarth | 504 c220 (Link to this contribution) I think that the hon. Gentleman is half right. I agree that it would be a good idea to develop propo...
David Howarth | 504 c219-20 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. and learned Gentleman. That is the core of the problem with the negative procedure....
William Cash | 504 c220 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept the central idea—I put it to the Minister, but he would not take the ...
Chris Bryant | 504 c217 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right to say that if there is a desire for a vote, there has to be a vote on a...
Chris Bryant | 504 c217-8 (Link to this contribution) Because there would be circumstances in which one would want to return to such an issue. It will be ...
David Howarth | 504 c217 (Link to this contribution) That raises an obvious question. Why do the Government think that this particular provision is at al...
Chris Bryant | 504 c216 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I shall be able to satisfy the hon. and learned Gentleman on that matter. I shall deal ...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c216 (Link to this contribution) I have no reason to doubt what the Minister says, but he will have to concentrate on the point that ...
Chris Bryant | 504 c217 (Link to this contribution) They would have to ask for it. A couple of hon. Members referred to the 21-day period. The hon. Mem...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c217 (Link to this contribution) The concept of the Government responding to individual Back Benchers demanding a debate and a vote i...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c218 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister identify any matter on which the Government may currently be defeated which they ca...
Chris Bryant | 504 c218 (Link to this contribution) No. The hon. and learned Gentleman makes a good point. As for my saying that it did not matter that...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c218 (Link to this contribution) If I did not say this earlier I apologise—but the point that I wanted to make is that the Minister s...
Chris Bryant | 504 c216 (Link to this contribution) I should like to make one preliminary remark. The right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and Nor...
Sammy Wilson | 504 c214 (Link to this contribution) In debate on the clause we have seen that, despite the high principles set out in the consultation p...
Richard Shepherd | 504 c214 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. I was there, and I know that my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford an...
David Heath | 504 c214 (Link to this contribution) To support the hon. Gentleman's contention, we know that the Bill does not set out a time period bet...
Richard Shepherd | 504 c213 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend. As he will know well, the issue of when papers or...
Sammy Wilson | 504 c215 (Link to this contribution) I know that the hon. Gentleman has tabled an amendment on this matter. I take his point, and I would...
William Cash | 504 c215 (Link to this contribution) I simply want to come back to the question of signing, as compared to ratifying, the treaty. All our...
Sammy Wilson | 504 c215 (Link to this contribution) I thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman for that intervention, which was very useful. If a full...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c214-5 (Link to this contribution) May I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that there is a further problem? The negative procedure can, gen...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c216 (Link to this contribution) I am making absolutely no criticism of the hon. Gentleman, but it is a very dangerous assumption tha...
Richard Shepherd | 504 c213 (Link to this contribution) But we wanted more than how it is now; that is the point. I was rolling on to the point that it is e...
David Howarth | 504 c213 (Link to this contribution) The language of that subsection seems clear to me: the Commons has to resolve again, in period B, no...
William Cash | 504 c211 (Link to this contribution) By using the expressions contained in the Bill, we are moving to a situation where the judiciary wil...
David Heath | 504 c211 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has only just sat down, but I should be happy for him to stand up again.
Richard Shepherd | 504 c212 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Member for Cambridge (David Howarth) for tabling the amendments. What he i...
Richard Shepherd | 504 c212 (Link to this contribution) No, it does not. The decision is really at the discretion of Ministers. The hon. Member for Somerton...
Chris Bryant | 504 c212-3 (Link to this contribution) Honestly, the clause does not allow that. The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) first s...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c213 (Link to this contribution) May I suggest to my hon. Friend that his point has ever greater force if one bears in mind what the ...
William Cash | 504 c209 (Link to this contribution) Before I give way to my right hon. and learned Friend, I would add that some believe strongly that t...
William Cash | 504 c209 (Link to this contribution) That would present problems. I have some sympathy with the Government, given the number of documents...
William Cash | 504 c208-9 (Link to this contribution) Well quite! My attempt to frustrate ratification on that occasion was turned down by the administra...
Sammy Wilson | 504 c209 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making an important point. Although the intentions might have been good—all th...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c208 (Link to this contribution) Good job it wasn't in an affidavit.
William Cash | 504 c211 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
William Cash | 504 c210 (Link to this contribution) I think that the short answer can be found in clause 28(2), which states that""'treaty' does not inc...
David Heath | 504 c210-1 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to reiterate any of the arguments so ably made by my hon. Friend the Member for Cambri...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c206-7 (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend is entirely right. I have not voted in a deferred Division for many years...
David Heath | 504 c207 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) did not quite describe the position. A mot...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c207 (Link to this contribution) These are arcane subjects for me, despite how long I have been here. I still favour the two presumpt...
William Cash | 504 c207 (Link to this contribution) I have reservations about much of what has been discussed, but not the principle that lies behind it...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c206 (Link to this contribution) We are not going to fall out, Sir Nicholas. Thirty is obviously the figure the Minister has in mind....
Dominic Grieve | 504 c206 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. and learned Friend highlights the extent to which the House has been further disabled ...
David Howarth | 504 c207 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 7 would leave out lines 15 to 20 on page 13 of the Bill.
William Cash | 504 c207-8 (Link to this contribution) I accept that point. This is the Committee stage, in which we have to examine how amendments are pre...
Chris Bryant | 504 c208 (Link to this contribution) How would you know, Sir Nicholas?
William Cash | 504 c208 (Link to this contribution) I meant it in a purely rhetorical sense.
David Howarth | 504 c203 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) said in the debate on the programme mot...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c204 (Link to this contribution) Might I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that what is clearly troubling a number of hon. Members is the...
David Howarth | 504 c204 (Link to this contribution) Yes. That would be a way of resolving the problem of having a debate. Amendment 1 would require only...
William Cash | 504 c203 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept that some of the problems could be overcome if we were to go down the...
David Howarth | 504 c203-4 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman raises two points. I agree that having some sort of control over the negotiating ...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c206 (Link to this contribution) Thirty is not a huge number. Is that the typical number or an average figure?
Dominic Grieve | 504 c204-5 (Link to this contribution) The amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Cambridge (David Howarth) seem to me to have some consi...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c206 (Link to this contribution) I am rather closer to the position of the hon. Member for Cambridge (David Howarth) than I am to tha...
Chris Bryant | 504 c206 (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether it is average mean or median.
David Howarth | 504 c200-1 (Link to this contribution) I shall not anticipate my speech, but that illustrates why there ought to be an affirmative procedur...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c201 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the hon. Gentleman could help me on this point, because he knows more about it than I do. I ...
David Howarth | 504 c201 (Link to this contribution) That is entirely right. That is my main point about the defects in the clause. The Government have ...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c201 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making an important point. When I looked at the clause my first instinct was t...
David Howarth | 504 c201-2 (Link to this contribution) Yes, that would be an alternative to the method that I propose. Amendment 1 would introduce an affir...
William Cash | 504 c202 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that as we feel our way towards some kind of understanding and solutio...
David Howarth | 504 c202 (Link to this contribution) That might be a way forward, but my preference is to say that there should be an affirmative procedu...
David Howarth | 504 c203 (Link to this contribution) What happens with affirmative statutory instruments is precisely that. There is not a debate on ever...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c203 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right, but of course one problem with statutory instruments is that they opera...
David Howarth | 504 c199 (Link to this contribution) That is an excellent example. The relevant Secretary of State—I believe that it was the Home Secreta...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c199 (Link to this contribution) A very good example of that is the treaty that the Government entered into with the United States re...
David Howarth | 504 c200 (Link to this contribution) Yes, it does not apply in the United States of America, and that is because of the explicit terms of...
William Cash | 504 c199-200 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman said that he would be surprised if many other countries took the dualist approach...
David Howarth | 504 c200 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right, but I still think that there is unfinished business from that time. The...
William Cash | 504 c200 (Link to this contribution) We have our rather exclusive arrangement precisely because of the struggles, which this House itself...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c198-9 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
David Howarth | 504 c199 (Link to this contribution) We come to the main issue, which is about the way in which the Government have chosen to attempt to ...
Andrew Dismore | 504 c195 (Link to this contribution) I have two points for my hon. Friend. He says that there is a risk of too much detail being given, b...
Chris Bryant | 504 c195-6 (Link to this contribution) No, that is not true. I am grateful to my hon. Friend—and incidentally, I am glad that he has tabled...
David Heath | 504 c196 (Link to this contribution) The explanatory memorandum is obviously of value. However, what is essential—I think this is the poi...
Chris Bryant | 504 c196 (Link to this contribution) In the public consultation before the publication of the draft Bill, that was one of the aspects on ...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c196 (Link to this contribution) As I understood the Minister's anxiety, it was something like this: it is odd to impose a requiremen...
Andrew Dismore | 504 c196-7 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased that my hon. Friend says that the issue is not closed in the Government's mind. Althoug...
Andrew Dismore | 504 c197 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point, although I am not sure that I should extend his analo...
David Heath | 504 c197 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that this is where the treaty process differs from the Bill process? T...
Chris Bryant | 504 c198 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend should not take too much advice from the Liberal Democrats, as the ratification of a ...
Sammy Wilson | 504 c194 (Link to this contribution) I accept what the Minister is saying about memorandums being published at the moment, but if that is...
Chris Bryant | 504 c194 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman seems quite angry about this issue. He says that I am opposed to this idea, but I...
John Redwood | 504 c193 (Link to this contribution) The amendment would modify the language; it would no longer mean what it means at the moment, becaus...
Chris Bryant | 504 c194 (Link to this contribution) Ever since this Government came to power we have always published explanatory memorandums, and we ha...
William Cash | 504 c195 (Link to this contribution) On the question of the Ponsonby rule, it is, as the Minister says, frequently—invariably, in fact—th...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c194 (Link to this contribution) The Minister was expressing an anxiety that too much detail in an explanatory memorandum reopens the...
Chris Bryant | 504 c194 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. and learned Gentleman is absolutely right. I think that we have steered the right cou...
Chris Bryant | 504 c195 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that you have done so, Sir Nicholas, because I wholeheartedly agreed with what the hon. Me...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c195 (Link to this contribution) Order. Using my discretion, I am allowing rather lengthy interventions that appear to me to be almos...
William Cash | 504 c195 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that the Minister is nodding his head; it is most unusual for us to agree. It is important...
David Howarth | 504 c198 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 1, in clause 24, page 12, leave out lines 41 and 42 and insert—
William Cash | 504 c198 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the amendment could include another type of reservation—one that...
Andrew Dismore | 504 c198 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman wants to take me down a rather different byway. His own amendments will be debate...
Chris Bryant | 504 c198 (Link to this contribution) In which case, I misheard the hon. Gentleman.
Andrew Dismore | 504 c198 (Link to this contribution) I think that the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) said that the equivalent of ratifica...
David Heath | 504 c174-5 (Link to this contribution) I fear that the Government are irredeemable. I fear that they have gone past the point where they ca...
John Redwood | 504 c175-6 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is quite shameless. I think he forgets that the Bill arises out of a piece of work call...
Robert Smith | 504 c174 (Link to this contribution) Is it not important also that a Government in their dying days, who have lost the trust of the peopl...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c174 (Link to this contribution) Equally, there are some clauses that relate very much to the other place, which is why I raised with...
David Heath | 504 c174 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree. I fear that the point may already have been reached where the chances of significa...
David Heath | 504 c179 (Link to this contribution) You said "right hon. Gentleman".
Mike Hancock | 504 c179 (Link to this contribution) Yes, it has, as the right hon. Gentleman says.
Mike Hancock | 504 c179 (Link to this contribution) I think that the saddest thing about this short debate is the rather pathetic excuses that the Minis...
Richard Shepherd | 504 c177-8 (Link to this contribution) I understood, from the Minister's intervention on the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath)...
William Cash | 504 c178-9 (Link to this contribution) I am very glad to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd), my right ...
John Redwood | 504 c176-7 (Link to this contribution) I think I said that the Minister was being discourteous to the House. I still believe that he is bei...
Lord Wills | 504 c176 (Link to this contribution) With all respect to the right hon. Gentleman, he really ought to listen to what I said. That is not ...
John Redwood | 504 c176 (Link to this contribution) For the sake of the Hansard record, the Minister was referring to my right hon. and learned Friend t...
Lord Wills | 504 c176 (Link to this contribution) I would like to stand up and apologise to the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood). I do ap...
John Redwood | 504 c176 (Link to this contribution) If a Government have enough votes, and if it is the will of the large majority in the House, they sh...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c176 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend accept that one of the most disagreeable features of the argument that we ...
John Redwood | 504 c176 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. Who is the Minister to presume how long I or anyone else should speak?
Lord Wills | 504 c181 (Link to this contribution) With permission, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Of course I agree with all the comments that have been made, an...
Sammy Wilson | 504 c181 (Link to this contribution) I take the right hon. and learned Gentleman's point. Far worse, of course, is the fact that Members ...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c181 (Link to this contribution) Actually, does it not go further than that? Many Members have tabled new clauses that go far outside...
Sammy Wilson | 504 c181 (Link to this contribution) It will not just be members of the House who are disappointed by what has happened today. When a Joi...
Speaker | 504 c182 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman should know that that is not a point of order, but an attempt to further the deba...
William Cash | 504 c182 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Would you be kind enough to rule on whether, in the middle ...
Lord Wills | 504 c182 (Link to this contribution) If I may, I should like to respond to the previous intervention and to make a few points in response...
Mike Hancock | 504 c179-80 (Link to this contribution) Oh, did I? I stand corrected. Perhaps, like other Members, the hon. Gentleman deserves that title, j...
Sammy Wilson | 504 c180 (Link to this contribution) When the Minister was intervened on by the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood), he said th...
Sammy Wilson | 504 c180 (Link to this contribution) Yes—yet another promise made during the discussions on the Bill has not been fulfilled. Indeed, it i...
John Redwood | 504 c180 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman recall that the current Prime Minister, when newly elevated to that post, ma...
William Cash | 504 c181 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that the Minister, in referring to the requirement to be pithy a...
William Cash | 504 c181 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman quotes a bit of Latin, but I do not think he really understands what he is talkin...
Speaker | 504 c181 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am sure that the matter the hon. Gentleman raises can be looked after by the Chair perfectl...
John Redwood | 504 c193 (Link to this contribution) But then, of course, the amendment would modify the discretion of that Minister, because it specifie...
Chris Bryant | 504 c193 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman said in his speech that the amendment would remove the language about the M...
Chris Bryant | 504 c193 (Link to this contribution) Sir Nicholas, it is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. The reason why I was shaking...
John Redwood | 504 c193 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is exactly right: we do seem to be short-changed in this respect. Again, it comes...
Sammy Wilson | 504 c192-3 (Link to this contribution) In the consultation and the Government paper on the governance of Britain, one recommendation was to...
John Redwood | 504 c192 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to see the Minister shaking his head. I am sure that that means that he will want to ...
William Cash | 504 c192 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend has just used the word "appropriate". I have been looking for it in clause 24, ...
John Redwood | 504 c191-2 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the amendment and I hope that it is pressed to a Division, because it is a modest and nece...
William Cash | 504 c191 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the sentiments of the amendment, but I have a slight problem with the timing. Where the...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c190 (Link to this contribution) I should like to endorse what has been said by the hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) and my hon. ...
David Howarth | 504 c190 (Link to this contribution) I also hope that the Government will respond positively to amendment 114. As I understand it—I think...
Andrew Dismore | 504 c188-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for his intervention. I shall say a little mor...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c189 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the hon. and learned Gentleman for that inadvertent mistake.
Lord Wills | 504 c182 (Link to this contribution) I just say this to the hon. and learned Gentleman: there are important constitutional points here. E...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c188 (Link to this contribution) I have a great deal of sympathy with what the hon. Gentleman proposes in his amendment. The one thin...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c189-90 (Link to this contribution) No apology is required, Sir Nicholas. The hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) has tabled an extrem...
William Cash | 504 c172 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, in this context, even the Wright Committee proposals appear to b...
Jeremy Corbyn | 504 c171-2 (Link to this contribution) I was hoping to intervene on the Minister, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but he was so quick in trying to get ...
Kelvin Hopkins | 504 c172 (Link to this contribution) I hope my hon. Friend will agree that it should be an advantage to have the Committee stage on the F...
Jeremy Corbyn | 504 c172 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a valid point. The advantage of holding the Committee stage on the Floor of the...
David Heath | 504 c173 (Link to this contribution) Precisely so. Instead of that, we have the assertion by the Minister that this timetable will allow ...
William Cash | 504 c173 (Link to this contribution) I very much agree with what the hon. Gentleman is saying. When we talk about constitutional Bills, w...
David Heath | 504 c172-3 (Link to this contribution) The Government never cease to disappoint in the way they approach parliamentary business. They never...
Jeremy Corbyn | 504 c172 (Link to this contribution) I await with interest the proposals of the Wright Committee and I look forward to their being proper...
Lord Wills | 504 c170 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman has been a Member for such a long time that I am sure he knows the answer t...
Lord Wills | 504 c169 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move,"That—""(1) the Order of 3 November 2009 in the last Session of Parliament (Constituti...
John Redwood | 504 c170 (Link to this contribution) Why does the Minister not do what always used to be done in this place: let us debate things for as ...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c171 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is correct: there has been talk of that. However, I am not aware of that possibility ...
William Cash | 504 c170-1 (Link to this contribution) In the context of the Report stage and IPSA, does my hon. and learned Friend agree with the suggesti...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c170 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to disappoint the Minister, but I will not agree to this programme motion, which represen...
Speaker | 504 c170 (Link to this contribution) Order. I apologise to the Members who are hoping to intervene, but the Minister has concluded his sp...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c174 (Link to this contribution) Of course, the hon. Gentleman would want to make the point that many of the new clauses relate direc...
David Heath | 504 c173-4 (Link to this contribution) I am saying that every Member of this House has the right to express their opinion before this House...
Lord Wills | 504 c173 (Link to this contribution) I want to be clear about the hon. Gentleman's position. The logical conclusion that we can draw from...
David Heath | 504 c173 (Link to this contribution) The Minister now wants to tell us why he is not right.
William Cash | 504 c246-8 (Link to this contribution) I could not agree more. The proposals for my sovereignty Bill follow on from the extremely sensible ...
Geoffrey Cox | 504 c248 (Link to this contribution) I shall take just a short time to defend from multiple attacks this modest, moderate and practical m...
Peter Bone | 504 c246 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend not making the case that we on the Conservative Benches are absolutely united on t...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c251-2 (Link to this contribution) It is difficult to follow that contribution, so I shall not try to do so; I shall follow the example...
William Cash | 504 c252 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way?
Geoffrey Cox | 504 c248-51 (Link to this contribution) Hon. Members are saying that the provision does not say that. It is a matter of interpretation. In m...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c253 (Link to this contribution) May I put to the House a different question from the one put by my hon. Friend, which, I think, answ...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c252 (Link to this contribution) If I may, I shall finish this point and then give way. I regard the competences of the court as one ...
William Cash | 504 c252-3 (Link to this contribution) I could not agree more with my right hon. and learned Friend on the question of the Whips' control o...
Denis MacShane | 504 c243 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a very good point. Frankly, I found that most of those four referendums—the...
Denis MacShane | 504 c243 (Link to this contribution) I will give way for a final time, because I really must conclude my speech.
William Cash | 504 c243 (Link to this contribution) Did the right hon. Gentleman reject the idea of a referendum in his election manifesto in 2005, when...
Denis MacShane | 504 c243-4 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a perfectly fair point. Of course, Parliament can decide to have referendum...
Michael Fabricant | 504 c244 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mrs. Heal. The right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. MacShane) may have inadvert...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c244 (Link to this contribution) Order. That is certainly not a point of order for the Chair, although it may well be a point of gram...
William Cash | 504 c244-5 (Link to this contribution) There is an expression—I hope that I do not offend the proprieties of the House by giving it in Lati...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c245-6 (Link to this contribution) I would like to hear my hon. Friend's view on one thing. It is plain that he is resting his argument...
William Cash | 504 c246 (Link to this contribution) If it was the right question, I could be prepared to accept an answer to it, certainly for my lifeti...
Geoffrey Cox | 504 c256 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mrs. Heal. It cannot be appropriate for the Minister to descend to such an undi...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c256 (Link to this contribution) Order. The Minister may wish to reconsider his words, but I think that he said what he did in a rath...
William Cash | 504 c256 (Link to this contribution) The Minister nods his head. If that is the case, it follows that all the precedents that he has just...
Chris Bryant | 504 c256 (Link to this contribution) No. Indeed, the point I am about to make is entirely to do with the sovereignty of Parliament. I sti...
Chris Bryant | 504 c257-8 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman wants to talk about shoddiness, he can talk to the leader of his own party. He...
Chris Bryant | 504 c256 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. and learned Gentleman knows perfectly well—
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c254 (Link to this contribution) In all probability, my hon. and learned Friend is correct. None the less, it is proper to meet an ar...
Chris Bryant | 504 c254 (Link to this contribution) It was a sadness that the hon. Member for Rayleigh (Mr. Francois) gave us such a short speech. He wa...
Geoffrey Cox | 504 c254 (Link to this contribution) What does the European Court of Justice mean when it describes something, as it has done in hundreds...
Chris Bryant | 504 c256 (Link to this contribution) The point is that the right hon. and learned Gentleman is starting to use the word "major", and othe...
Chris Bryant | 504 c254 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman knows perfectly well, though he was wholly inaccurate in his understa...
William Cash | 504 c255 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has complete and total belief in the European Union and the European Court as they stan...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c256 (Link to this contribution) I was in fact referring to the major treaties that I was associated with, namely those arising from ...
Denis MacShane | 504 c242 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to a freshman, as it were, in this debate.
Denis MacShane | 504 c242 (Link to this contribution) The point that the hon. Gentleman makes with restrained passion—we have all sat metaphorically at hi...
Richard Shepherd | 504 c242 (Link to this contribution) In the right hon. Gentleman's defence of the sovereignty of Parliament, does he not recognise that i...
Denis MacShane | 504 c242 (Link to this contribution) Because I am afraid the one iron law of all referendums is that whatever the question on the ballot ...
Lord Tyrie | 504 c242-3 (Link to this contribution) A moment ago, the right hon. Gentleman appeared to say that it was not worth holding referendums bec...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c264 (Link to this contribution) Let me say to the hon. and learned Gentleman that those are not matters that I can deal with now. We...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c264 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Sir Michael. It is now 9.57 pm. There has been a perfectly sensible debate on t...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c260 (Link to this contribution) I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby.
Mark Francois | 504 c260 (Link to this contribution) In fairness, all the way through the Lisbon treaty debates I was not normally accused of letting the...
William Cash | 504 c260 (Link to this contribution) May I invite my hon. Friend, in his marvellous attack on the Liberal Democrats, not to leave out the...
Mark Francois | 504 c260 (Link to this contribution) I could not have a summing-up speech without giving way to my hon. Friend. Just for a moment I thoug...
Mark Francois | 504 c259-60 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to agree with my hon. Friend in a European debate. He is absolutely right. Labour M...
Philip Davies | 504 c259 (Link to this contribution) I agree wholeheartedly with what my hon. Friend says. Does he agree that Labour Members are so wound...
Mark Francois | 504 c258-9 (Link to this contribution) I have heard a number of winding-up speeches by Government Ministers in the time I have been in this...
David Howarth | 504 c264 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 116, page 13, line 34, at beginning insert
David Howarth | 504 c265 (Link to this contribution) I shall be very brief. [Interruption.] Clause 26 is a general get-out clause that should not be in t...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c264-5 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 59
Lord Willis of Knaresborough | 504 c225 (Link to this contribution) The following point is crucial to these amendments and new clause 68. Will the hon. Gentleman give a...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c224-5 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:Amendment 126, in clause 27, page 14, line ...
Richard Shepherd | 504 c213 (Link to this contribution) All right; I will accept that point, but that was not my understanding of subsection (4), which I th...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c210 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend. He will know that I do not normally encourage him to go on longer t...
Chris Bryant | 504 c200 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is right, although I think that there are a large number of countr...
Philip Davies | 504 c257 (Link to this contribution) What mechanism does the Minister envisage to deal with the problem of political parties that promise...
Chris Bryant | 504 c202 (Link to this contribution) I am slightly perplexed. Is the hon. Gentleman really suggesting that every single treaty that is ag...
Lord Wills | 504 c182 (Link to this contribution) With great respect, I will not give way, because I want to make a few points while I have still got ...
Chris Bryant | 504 c256-7 (Link to this contribution) No, indeed; just learned, not right. The hon. and learned Gentleman knows perfectly well how the com...
Geoffrey Cox | 504 c253-4 (Link to this contribution) If the European Union or its countries have spent years negotiating to produce a treaty, and the cha...
Denis MacShane | 504 c240 (Link to this contribution) I give way to an hon. Member who has rediscovered the virtue of honesty as representing the UK Indep...
John Redwood | 504 c192 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is slightly ahead of my argument. In the measure that I am discussing "opinion" is no...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c182 (Link to this contribution) I really cannot resist responding to the Minister's comment on the number of people in the Chamber. ...
Chris Bryant | 504 c255 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I wholeheartedly deny that the European Court of Justice has the power to determine every one o...
Keith Vaz | 504 c233 (Link to this contribution) But my right hon. Friend was the longest serving—
William Cash | 504 c217 (Link to this contribution) On the question of determining which documents are important and which are not—be they treaties or t...
David Heath | 504 c211-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who is absolutely right. The purpose of the wording is indeed t...
Chris Bryant | 504 c196 (Link to this contribution) I can see the argument that the right hon. and learned Gentleman is making. I do not feel particular...
Andrew Dismore | 504 c187-8 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 114, page 12, line 38, leave out"'a copy of the treaty'" and insert— '(i) ...
William Cash | 504 c256 (Link to this contribution) I shall answer the Minister very simply. This is a sovereign Parliament—that is his and his Governme...

Subjects

Courts
Demonstrations
British nationality
Delegated legislation
Committees
British constitution
Constitutional and administrative law
House of Commons
Disqualification
EU law
EU accession
European communities
International law
Powers
Parliament Square
Members
Referendums
Parliamentary scrutiny
Palace of Westminster
Parliament
Public order
Sovereignty
Treaties
UK membership of EU
Supreme Court
Treaty of Lisbon

Legislation

Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill 2008-09 to 2009-10

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
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