Parliamentary Standards Bill

Debate on bills and Committee of the Whole House (HC) on Tuesday, 30 June 2009, in the House of Commons.

Parliamentary Standards Bill. Committee stage first day. Clauses 1 to 5 agreed to (with clauses 3 and 5 agreed to as amended). Schedules 1 to 3 agreed to, with schedules 1 and 2 agreed to as amended. Clauses 11 to 14 agreed to, with clauses 12 and 13 agreed to as amended. [Relevant Documents: Memorandum from the Audit Committees on the Parliamentary Standards Bill, and written evidence received by the Justice Committee on Constitutional Reform and Renewal, HC 791-i.]

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

495 c186-272

Session

2008-09

Constitutional reform and renewal. Evidence 30 June 2009. (Printed in HC 791).
Tuesday, 30 June 2009
Parliamentary committees
House of Commons

Proceeding contributions

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c197 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman is giving me trouble this afternoon. I reacted instantly to the use of the...

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c186 (Link to this contribution) The Committee will be aware of the considerable pressures of time today and tomorrow. Yesterday, som...

Show all contributions (249)

Jack Straw | 495 c192 (Link to this contribution) Not me. The issue particularly exercising the Clerk and Members was clause 6, which I have dealt wi...

Lord Cormack | 495 c192 (Link to this contribution) The Lord Chancellor knows very well that I endorse all that the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Con...

William Cash | 495 c192 (Link to this contribution) Who is Don Quixote?

Jack Straw | 495 c192 (Link to this contribution) As I explained yesterday, the Kelly committee is dealing with the content of the allowance system—[H...

David Heathcoat-Amory | 495 c193 (Link to this contribution) I must correct the Justice Secretary. He just said that the Kelly inquiry is only conducting a revie...

William Cash | 495 c192 (Link to this contribution) And insulted.

Lord Cormack | 495 c192 (Link to this contribution) That, too. What happens if Sir Christopher and his committee decide that they do not want to take th...

Jack Straw | 495 c193 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will have to ask Sir Christopher Kelly why he asked those questions. It would be ...

Jack Straw | 495 c193 (Link to this contribution) I do not accept that. We are not pre-empting what Sir Christopher Kelly is doing. The fact of the Ke...

Bernard Jenkin | 495 c193 (Link to this contribution) Why, then, when I and several colleagues went to see Sir Christopher Kelly, did he specifically ask ...

Lord Cormack | 495 c190 (Link to this contribution) It was not the seriousness of the issue that I was reflecting on, but rather the anticipated length ...

Jack Straw | 495 c186 (Link to this contribution) Clause 1 sets out the basic structure and architecture of the new regime: the new bodies—the Indepen...

Lord Cormack | 495 c189 (Link to this contribution) Be warned!

William Cash | 495 c189 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, although my hon. Friend might well be warned as well, because whereas those matters can be t...

Oliver Heald | 495 c188 (Link to this contribution) I support the points that my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan) made. As a ...

William Cash | 495 c188-9 (Link to this contribution) I would like to draw the House's attention to clause 1(2), which states that schedule 1 provides for...

John Redwood | 495 c187 (Link to this contribution) I strongly object to the time limit on the Bill. Some of us withdrew from the debate yesterday, cons...

Alistair Carmichael | 495 c188 (Link to this contribution) I, too, would like to place on record my concerns about the management of the Bill. It is proper to ...

Alan Duncan | 495 c186-7 (Link to this contribution) In the interest of the brevity that you have called for, Mrs. Heal, the need for which we quite appr...

Lord Cormack | 495 c187 (Link to this contribution) I shall obey your injunctions, Mrs. Heal, and not make a long speech, or even a proper speech at all...

William Cash | 495 c190 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. I am glad to be able to say that, in Committee, it is appropriate for us to go into these ma...

John Redwood | 495 c190 (Link to this contribution) To return to my hon. Friend's point about clause 1, he drew our attention to the fact that IPSA will...

Richard Shepherd | 495 c191 (Link to this contribution) Across the Front Benches.

Jack Straw | 495 c191-2 (Link to this contribution) It may have been the Front Benchers, as the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) says,...

Elfyn Llwyd | 495 c192 (Link to this contribution) I do not demur from what the right hon. Gentleman says about a general consensus emerging a few week...

William Cash | 495 c190 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the provision is set out in this way so that, as far as possible, the functions can be treat...

Jack Straw | 495 c190-1 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan) and a number of other right hon. and hon. Membe...

Peter Bone | 495 c191 (Link to this contribution) Was there any discussion this morning about moving a Government motion to amend the programme motion...

Jack Straw | 495 c191 (Link to this contribution) There were discussions, but in the event, it was judged appropriate to keep within the time scale. F...

Mark Durkan | 495 c231 (Link to this contribution) I think that the hon. and learned Gentleman may be persuaded that it is very clear that the latter w...

Dominic Grieve | 495 c231 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate that point, and I hope that it would have to follow automatically that IPSA did that. H...

Lord Tyrie | 495 c228-9 (Link to this contribution) This relatively small amendment is significant, because it would add the Committee on Standards in P...

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c228 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment 26, page 2, line 14, at end ins...

Lord Tyrie | 495 c228 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 68, page 2, line 11, at end insert—

Lord Tyrie | 495 c224 (Link to this contribution) I wish to press the amendment to a Division. Question put, That the amendment be made:— The Commit...

Mark Durkan | 495 c230-1 (Link to this contribution) Nothing in new clause 10 imposes any duty on HMRC. It is not obliged to conform to anything. Amendme...

Dominic Grieve | 495 c230 (Link to this contribution) I interrupt the hon. Gentleman because although I appreciate what he is trying to do—indeed, it migh...

Mark Durkan | 495 c229-30 (Link to this contribution) Obviously, I rise to speak to amendment 71 and new clause 10, which are tabled in my name. I begin b...

Dominic Grieve | 495 c229 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend, because it is entirely sensible. The Government wi...

Robert Smith | 495 c231 (Link to this contribution) On proposed new subsection (2), it seems to be good employment practice for someone who is providing...

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c236 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 57, page 2, line 19, leave out from 'effect' to...

Robert Smith | 495 c235 (Link to this contribution) I want to reinforce the point that the Government should accept amendment 68. Clearly, the Committee...

Lord Soames of Fletching | 495 c234 (Link to this contribution) In a long and highly competitive field, this is by any stretch of the imagination a very foolish Bil...

David Heathcoat-Amory | 495 c236 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 56, in clause 3, page 2, line 18, at end add

Baroness Keeley | 495 c235-6 (Link to this contribution) My job is quite an easy one because we intend broadly to accept the amendments. We are discussing am...

Elfyn Llwyd | 495 c233-4 (Link to this contribution) I rise to support very strongly amendment 68, in the name of the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr. Tyr...

Mark Durkan | 495 c231-3 (Link to this contribution) Yes, absolutely. Many Members have been criticised and challenged for the way in which they were rel...

Elfyn Llwyd | 495 c234 (Link to this contribution) Of course there are, and we have seen a few over the past few weeks and months. I accept what the ho...

Mark Durkan | 495 c234 (Link to this contribution) New clause 10 and its provisions for general guidance apply only to considerations and principles re...

David Heathcoat-Amory | 495 c236-7 (Link to this contribution) The amendment provides that the House should approve the allowances system that has been prepared by...

Edward Leigh | 495 c237 (Link to this contribution) Is there not an inconsistency in logic here? On the one hand, we are saying that we should accept wh...

Dominic Grieve | 495 c240 (Link to this contribution) The amendment tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young) ...

Baroness Keeley | 495 c240 (Link to this contribution) The experience of the past few months had taught us that some Members may need to take greater respo...

Lord Young of Cookham | 495 c239-40 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. He anticipated the other point that I intended to make. The aud...

Robert Smith | 495 c239 (Link to this contribution) I may be interrupting the right hon. Gentleman as he was about to make the point that with the Fees ...

Lord Young of Cookham | 495 c239 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 6, page 2, line 32, after 'to', insert 'or on behalf of'. The issue raised ...

Baroness Keeley | 495 c239 (Link to this contribution) Amendments 56 and 57 would insert a parliamentary filter into the setting of the allowances claim, a...

Dominic Grieve | 495 c238-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for bringing amendments 56 and 57 before the House. I see his ...

David Heathcoat-Amory | 495 c237-8 (Link to this contribution) That is exactly the point that I am making. We may or may not accept the Kelly recommendations; we h...

Robert Smith | 495 c250 (Link to this contribution) Under the hon. and learned Gentleman's professional code, what information could he provide to give ...

Dominic Grieve | 495 c250 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right. The rules say something about that, but it is all very vague and opaque...

Elfyn Llwyd | 495 c250 (Link to this contribution) If I understand the rules correctly, from tomorrow every gross payment we receive will have to be re...

Robert Smith | 495 c248 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. and learned Gentleman expand on his logic? The House already has a code, and another c...

Dominic Grieve | 495 c247-8 (Link to this contribution) I was not sure whether to feel sorry for the Secretary of State, but I will do so, because he seems ...

Bernard Jenkin | 495 c249 (Link to this contribution) Not under this Bill.

Dominic Grieve | 495 c249-50 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend could not be more correct. There is, I think, little danger of my appearing as an adv...

Dominic Grieve | 495 c249 (Link to this contribution) I listened with care to what the Secretary of State has said, and I am conscious of the very limited...

William Cash | 495 c253 (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend touches on an extremely important question, relating to the application i...

Dominic Grieve | 495 c253 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend may well be right. Another point arises from an amendment that he has tabled. It rela...

Dominic Grieve | 495 c250 (Link to this contribution) I have given the game away by saying that I only worked once last year, but normally I would have no...

Charles Walker | 495 c251 (Link to this contribution) If my hon. and learned Friend unwittingly over-recorded or under-recorded the hours that he worked, ...

Dominic Grieve | 495 c251-2 (Link to this contribution) We will tomorrow consider the requirements laid down in clause 9. I could be fined and, as a profess...

John Redwood | 495 c252 (Link to this contribution) Should not Labour Members also take this matter seriously? When Labour legislated for Electoral Comm...

Dominic Grieve | 495 c252 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my right hon. Friend. Let me say in fairness to the Secretary of State, who has now re...

Dominic Grieve | 495 c252 (Link to this contribution) I am sure my hon. Friend will agree with me that we will want to listen to what the Secretary of Sta...

William Cash | 495 c252 (Link to this contribution) I certainly agree with my hon. and learned Friend about the distinction between rules and codes. Hav...

Lord Cormack | 495 c255 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful, and I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire...

Lord Cormack | 495 c255 (Link to this contribution) It is far better. I ask the Secretary of State: what is the difference between a code and a rule? I...

Jack Straw | 495 c255 (Link to this contribution) I said that I would listen to the debate, and I have, and I am persuaded that it is right to withdra...

Lord Cormack | 495 c254-5 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with what my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Youn...

Angus Robertson | 495 c255 (Link to this contribution) It sounds more like "Flashman".

Angus Robertson | 495 c254 (Link to this contribution) Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this House legislated in the Scotland Act 1998 for people to ...

Lord Young of Cookham | 495 c254 (Link to this contribution) Were my amendment to be successful, I would quite understand it if the hon. Gentleman felt obliged t...

Lord Young of Cookham | 495 c253-4 (Link to this contribution) I should like to speak to amendment 7, which stands in my name. It relates to clause 5(8), which the...

Dominic Grieve | 495 c253 (Link to this contribution) Yes, we will, but I want to conclude now. Our amendment 73 simply specifies that Ministers should b...

Jack Straw | 495 c242 (Link to this contribution) I was not suggesting that the two codes would run together—far from it; I was suggesting that they w...

Lord Young of Cookham | 495 c242 (Link to this contribution) Is it not the case that we will continue to have the Members' current code of conduct, albeit withou...

Jack Straw | 495 c241 (Link to this contribution) It may assist the Committee if, in addition to speaking to the Government amendments, I comment brie...

Dominic Grieve | 495 c241 (Link to this contribution) I am not entirely persuaded by the soft-soaping of that change, which is rather fundamental. We are ...

Robert Smith | 495 c242 (Link to this contribution) I should like some clarity from the Secretary of State. Why was the provision in clause 5 originally...

Jack Straw | 495 c242 (Link to this contribution) That is a choice for the Committee, but in my judgment, there are slightly more important issues to ...

Jack Straw | 495 c242 (Link to this contribution) I give way to the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith).

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c240-1 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government amendments 75 and 76. Amendmen...

Jack Straw | 495 c240 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 74, page 3, line 16, leave out subsections (1) and (2) and insert—

Jack Straw | 495 c244 (Link to this contribution) Even in Bills that are not brought in with this speed, sometimes Homer nods and they need refreshmen...

Jack Straw | 495 c244 (Link to this contribution) The rules that are due to come into force tomorrow will come into force tomorrow, and that has nothi...

Lord Field of Birkenhead | 495 c244 (Link to this contribution) May I bring my right hon. Friend back to the matter of timing? He is correct to say that we approved...

Jack Straw | 495 c244 (Link to this contribution) I have known my right hon. Friend for more than 30 years, and when we were both traipsing around in ...

Lord Field of Birkenhead | 495 c245 (Link to this contribution) We were lucky—we were both rejected.

Lord Field of Birkenhead | 495 c242 (Link to this contribution) In the hope that we can speed on our way through the clause, I wonder whether my right hon. Friend r...

Jack Straw | 495 c242 (Link to this contribution) This is a rose by any other name, but now it is called a""code of conduct relating to financial inte...

Gerald Howarth | 495 c243 (Link to this contribution) The Justice Secretary has made some important and practical points. However, what astonishes me is t...

Jack Straw | 495 c242-3 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I have, but it may assist the Committee if I go through the other amendments in this group in t...

Jack Straw | 495 c246 (Link to this contribution) I have not said so. I am open to correction—I have not given evidence to Sir Christopher Kelly's com...

Jack Straw | 495 c246 (Link to this contribution) I am genuinely unaware of whether Sir Christopher Kelly is concerning himself with rules or codes ab...

Gerald Howarth | 495 c246 (Link to this contribution) The Prime Minister said so.

Jack Straw | 495 c245 (Link to this contribution) I do not accept that. We can have a debate about whether we use "code relating to financial interest...

John Redwood | 495 c245-6 (Link to this contribution) Is the Secretary of State saying that introducing a new set of financial rules tomorrow could be fol...

Dominic Grieve | 495 c245 (Link to this contribution) I have a growing anxiety as I listen to the Secretary of State and watch his body language as he exp...

Jack Straw | 495 c245 (Link to this contribution) I assure the hon. Gentleman that there is no question of responsibility for non-financial conduct ma...

Elfyn Llwyd | 495 c245 (Link to this contribution) May I take the right hon. Gentleman back to the incisive question asked by the right hon. Member for...

Jack Straw | 495 c245 (Link to this contribution) And on that point, four hon. Members stand up. I give way to the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Co...

Jack Straw | 495 c245 (Link to this contribution) We were indeed, and never was there salvation more quickly delivered. It struck me then that my righ...

Bernard Jenkin | 495 c247 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman for missing the opening few minutes of his remarks, although...

Jack Straw | 495 c247 (Link to this contribution) With the best will in the world, I do not think there will be time to table such an amendment to tak...

Bernard Jenkin | 495 c247 (Link to this contribution) Me?

Jack Straw | 495 c247 (Link to this contribution) I will indeed consult the hon. Gentleman—why not? I cannot promise that we will reach agreement on t...

Jack Straw | 495 c247 (Link to this contribution) I apologise, but I cannot quite remember when the hon. Gentleman came into the House.

Charles Walker | 495 c247 (Link to this contribution) I disagree with my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young). I enter...

Jack Straw | 495 c247 (Link to this contribution) The House has been struggling to bring its systems up to date and into a state such as it has insist...

Charles Walker | 495 c247 (Link to this contribution) Four years ago.

Lord Goodman of Wycombe | 495 c246 (Link to this contribution) I want to try a question on the Secretary of State that has nothing to do with Kelly or with the wor...

Baroness Keeley | 495 c223 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) has already put very well the point that I want to...

Mark Durkan | 495 c223 (Link to this contribution) But that would mean our agreeing that the legislation was purely temporary. I know that some have fa...

Baroness Keeley | 495 c223-4 (Link to this contribution) I can tell the hon. Gentleman at the outset that we will not be accepting his amendment. The amendm...

Lord Tyrie | 495 c223 (Link to this contribution) The Minister seems to be ignorant of the fact that pay is not part of the Kelly review. Also, she se...

Lord Tyrie | 495 c222 (Link to this contribution) May I point out to the hon. Gentleman that pay is specifically excluded from the terms of reference ...

Mark Durkan | 495 c222 (Link to this contribution) I was impressed, to a degree, by some of the arguments presented by the hon. Member for Chichester (...

Alan Duncan | 495 c223 (Link to this contribution) May I respectfully point out that even if Sir Christopher Kelly and his committee made recommendatio...

Mark Durkan | 495 c222-3 (Link to this contribution) Pay, in terms of salary, is excluded, but treatment of some of the issues is not. We need only exami...

Robert Smith | 495 c222 (Link to this contribution) As a Front Bencher, I am now not sure whether I want to speak after all. The hon. Member for Aldrid...

Richard Shepherd | 495 c222 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend says that it is fantastic. That tells us what is happening to Front Benchers.

Lord Cormack | 495 c193 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c196 (Link to this contribution) Order. May I just say to the right hon. Gentleman that his amendment 53 was not selected, so it is n...

David Heathcoat-Amory | 495 c195-6 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an historical illusion, which is relevant because a part of our history—certain...

Lord Cormack | 495 c195 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps it is so that five Members can be arrested at some stage.

David Heathcoat-Amory | 495 c195 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to you, Sir Alan, for selecting my starred amendments in your position as Chairman of ...

Bernard Jenkin | 495 c194-5 (Link to this contribution) The purpose of the amendment is simply to ask the promoter of the Bill what the judge, or ex-judge, ...

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c194 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment 50, page 10, line 24, leave out...

Bernard Jenkin | 495 c194 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 61, page 10, line 12, leave out subsection (2).

Jack Straw | 495 c193-4 (Link to this contribution) No. I have already given way to the hon. Gentleman, and we must make progress. As always, I listene...

David Heathcoat-Amory | 495 c196 (Link to this contribution) I shall therefore merely make the point in passing, because it is relevant to the schedule as a whol...

Jack Straw | 495 c215 (Link to this contribution) This has been a useful debate, and I should like to respond to it, if I may. My right hon. Friend th...

Lord Young of Cookham | 495 c215 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend. We have had a useful debate that has outlined some potential solutions...

Lord Young of Cookham | 495 c214-5 (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend is quite right, which underlines the need for some serious consultation i...

Lord Cormack | 495 c215 (Link to this contribution) Does that point not underline the good sense of taking time in the other place to get the Bill absol...

Lord Young of Cookham | 495 c214 (Link to this contribution) Having listened to this debate on schedule 2, I think that we are clearly on a journey with the dest...

Dominic Grieve | 495 c214 (Link to this contribution) I should make it clear—I might not have done this earlier—that I can see that there might be some me...

Lord Young of Cookham | 495 c213 (Link to this contribution) I have no idea.

Lord Garnier | 495 c214 (Link to this contribution) Well, there we are—it appears that none of us has an idea, but perhaps we ought to. I return to what...

Jack Straw | 495 c213 (Link to this contribution) indicated assent.

Lord Garnier | 495 c213 (Link to this contribution) Well, I am delighted to hear that, because—[Interruption.] I am so grateful for the attendance of th...

Alan Duncan | 495 c222 (Link to this contribution) It is fantastic.

Viscount Hailsham | 495 c215 (Link to this contribution) My reading of that—in accordance with the ordinary procedures on affirmative resolutions—is that the...

Jack Straw | 495 c217 (Link to this contribution) It might help if I explain the basis on which we propose the Speaker's Committee. We took into consi...

Lord Tyrie | 495 c218-20 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 69, page 1, line 17, at end add 'of 3 July 2008.' The amendment would take ...

Alan Duncan | 495 c220 (Link to this contribution) I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr. Tyrie) on tabling the amendment. It has cons...

Richard Shepherd | 495 c220-1 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan) used the word "automaticity" about ou...

Jack Straw | 495 c215 (Link to this contribution) It is certainly the case, as with any affirmative resolution, that the rules would be either accepte...

Viscount Hailsham | 495 c215 (Link to this contribution) Once the rules are in place, who will be able to get rid of them? Will it be only the IPSA, or will ...

Jack Straw | 495 c215-6 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. and learned Gentleman raises an interesting point. Under the structure of the Bill at...

Viscount Hailsham | 495 c216-7 (Link to this contribution) I indicated in the previous debate that I would like to have a short debate on schedule 3. The compo...

Denis MacShane | 495 c211 (Link to this contribution) I was simply reporting what the website said. If it is a criticism, let the cap fit. In the House, ...

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c211 (Link to this contribution) Order. The right hon. Gentleman must take care when criticising another hon. Member, certainly when ...

Denis MacShane | 495 c210-1 (Link to this contribution) I want to place on record my concerns, some of which mirror those that Opposition Members have expre...

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c210 (Link to this contribution) Before I call the next hon. Member, I need to make a confession to the House and seek indulgence. In...

Jack Straw | 495 c208 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman raises an important point, but someone has to appoint both the member...

Viscount Hailsham | 495 c208-9 (Link to this contribution) On any view, the commissioner will have considerable authority over right hon. and hon. Members, or ...

Lord Young of Cookham | 495 c210 (Link to this contribution) indicated assent.

Lord Cormack | 495 c210 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend indicates that he does. Now we are going to have another commissioner. The clea...

William Cash | 495 c209 (Link to this contribution) Schedule 2 deals with the role of the Commissioner for Parliamentary Investigations. We will get on ...

Lord Cormack | 495 c209-10 (Link to this contribution) I wish to support the comments of my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir Geor...

Viscount Hailsham | 495 c213 (Link to this contribution) When my hon. and learned Friend says that the machinery is in the grip of Parliament, what I think h...

Lord Garnier | 495 c212-3 (Link to this contribution) I largely agree with what the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. MacShane) has just said, particul...

Lord Garnier | 495 c213 (Link to this contribution) I agree. It has long been my view that while we have an Executive who sit in Parliament, they should...

Lord Cormack | 495 c211 (Link to this contribution) Churchill.

Denis MacShane | 495 c211 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. At the beginning of 1939, the Conservative party actively tried to deselect Churchill. Winst...

Iain Duncan Smith | 495 c211 (Link to this contribution) Chingford.

Denis MacShane | 495 c211 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan Smith).

Edward Leigh | 495 c212 (Link to this contribution) Winston Churchill's private and business affairs were extremely shady in the 1930s, and he would cer...

Denis MacShane | 495 c212 (Link to this contribution) Under the new rules, not only in the Bill, but in the Green Book that has been waved around, the not...

Bernard Jenkin | 495 c204 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Sir Alan. What happens to amendments 1 and 2?

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c204 (Link to this contribution) They come later. The hon. Gentleman should not be concerned; we shall arrive at them in due course.

Stuart Bell | 495 c203 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful for the opportunity to make a contribution with you in the Chair, Sir Alan; it is...

Jack Straw | 495 c203 (Link to this contribution) Such is the eloquence of the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young) and my ho...

Lord Young of Cookham | 495 c203 (Link to this contribution) These are technical amendments, and the need for them may reflect the haste with which the Bill has ...

Lord Young of Cookham | 495 c203 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 3, page 15, line 41, leave out from 'After' to end of line and insert

Bernard Jenkin | 495 c202 (Link to this contribution) I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Amendment made: 52, ...

Jack Straw | 495 c202 (Link to this contribution) The basic reduction in the age of retirement for the judiciary was made by the right hon. and noble ...

Lord Garnier | 495 c208 (Link to this contribution) A few moments ago the Secretary of State made a perfectly fair point about the need for complaints a...

Dominic Grieve | 495 c205-6 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend refers to the body that many thought was going to be created. There are very good arg...

Jack Straw | 495 c206-7 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young) has raised an important issue that...

Dominic Grieve | 495 c207 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State makes a compelling argument for having a reviewer of IPSA decisions in relati...

Lord Garnier | 495 c205 (Link to this contribution) Taking into account what our right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young...

Dominic Grieve | 495 c204-5 (Link to this contribution) I endorse everything that my right hon. Friend has just said. There will inevitably be duplication i...

Edward Leigh | 495 c205 (Link to this contribution) Is not the overwhelming and logical conclusion to the argument of my hon. and learned Friend the Mem...

Dominic Grieve | 495 c205 (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend makes an interesting and sensible point. The only difficulty is that we h...

Lord Cormack | 495 c197 (Link to this contribution) It fits, if I may so suggest, Sir Alan, because the amendment tabled by my right hon. Friend the Mem...

Lord Cormack | 495 c196-7 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely sorry, Sir Alan, and I hope that you will forgive me. I rise to support the amendment...

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c197 (Link to this contribution) Order. It troubles me to have to intervene once again on the hon. Gentleman, but having listened to ...

Bernard Jenkin | 495 c198 (Link to this contribution) I confess that, perhaps naively, I took sub-paragraph (2) to mean that it was intended that a person...

Lord Garnier | 495 c198 (Link to this contribution) That is one of the skills of being a judge. I have no doubt that any current judges who had the misf...

Lord Cormack | 495 c197 (Link to this contribution) At your instruction, Sir Alan, I will withdraw "malice" but I shall leave "uncharitableness". I beli...

Lord Garnier | 495 c197-8 (Link to this contribution) May I ask the Secretary of State one or two questions that arise from the amendment tabled by my hon...

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c196 (Link to this contribution) Order. May I just make a correction for the Committee's benefit, because this error is being repeate...

Lord Cormack | 495 c196 (Link to this contribution) Mr. Deputy Speaker, I rise briefly to—

Bernard Jenkin | 495 c199 (Link to this contribution) The main point that I was seeking to make was that if we are to have someone with such experience, h...

Dominic Grieve | 495 c199-200 (Link to this contribution) There again, having someone of legal experience on the investigatory side may be desirable—clearly n...

Edward Leigh | 495 c200 (Link to this contribution) Is it not a fundamental point of parliamentary privilege established since the civil war that no Cro...

Dominic Grieve | 495 c200 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an important point. The difficulty that the House has, and we have to face up t...

Jack Straw | 495 c200-1 (Link to this contribution) This has been a useful debate, and I am grateful to right hon. and hon. Gentlemen for having raised ...

Bernard Jenkin | 495 c201 (Link to this contribution) There has been a succession of very able Parliamentary Commissioners for Standards, but no holder of...

Jack Straw | 495 c201-2 (Link to this contribution) I am a member of the legal profession and have great affection for it. I have made plenty of jokes a...

Dominic Grieve | 495 c198-9 (Link to this contribution) I want to say a few words about the amendments, and the Opposition's view of these matters. My hon. ...

Dominic Grieve | 495 c199 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. I would not have thought that the uncertainties about the stru...

Lord Goodman of Wycombe | 495 c199 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. and learned Friend believe that a judge's enthusiasm for serving on this body will be e...

Jack Straw | 495 c259 (Link to this contribution) The truth is that being a Minister was an office. It was the case certainly until the 1920s, if not ...

Gerald Howarth | 495 c257-8 (Link to this contribution) I rise to support amendment 73, which is excellent, and I also agree with everything that my hon. Fr...

Bernard Jenkin | 495 c258-9 (Link to this contribution) I endorse much of what my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth) said about amendment 73...

Shailesh Vara | 495 c256 (Link to this contribution) We will not get any further because we will have Divisions. Keep talking.

Robert Smith | 495 c256-7 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for North-West Cambridgeshire (Mr. Vara) points out from the Conservative Front Benc...

Lord Cormack | 495 c256 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that she was thrilled. If we cannot have sauce for goose and gander in that respect, then ...

Robert Smith | 495 c256 (Link to this contribution) We have only 29 minutes left, but I hope that we will be able to reach other clauses—

Lord Cormack | 495 c256 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful again to the right hon. Gentleman, and perhaps we can have a hat trick. He has accepte...

Jack Straw | 495 c256 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that I cannot give the hon. Gentleman comfort on that, as the distinction is that it is ...

Jack Straw | 495 c259 (Link to this contribution) Indeed; the hon. Gentleman mentioned that whenever anybody was appointed as a Minister, there was au...

Bernard Jenkin | 495 c259 (Link to this contribution) I mentioned that.

Lord Goodman of Wycombe | 495 c260-2 (Link to this contribution) Clearly, as I said yesterday, Members of the House are either elected representatives who are free t...

Bernard Jenkin | 495 c259-60 (Link to this contribution) It would, of course, be churlish of me not to acknowledge that the right hon. Gentleman has agreed t...

Jack Straw | 495 c263 (Link to this contribution) I have listened to the debate with great care. Let me say for the assistance of the House that in ad...

Adam Afriyie | 495 c262-3 (Link to this contribution) We heard a brilliant contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr. Goodman); I hope t...

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c267 (Link to this contribution) Order. We must deal with the votes now. ... Order. It is for the occupant of the Chair to take the v...

Lord McLoughlin | 495 c267 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Sir Michael— ... The Front Bench—

Dominic Grieve | 495 c248 (Link to this contribution) I take the hon. Gentleman's point. On balance, I prefer my first theory to my second. Nevertheless,...

Jack Straw | 495 c248 (Link to this contribution) Picking up on the point that was made a moment ago by the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kin...

Jack Straw | 495 c246-7 (Link to this contribution) No, it is not. The rules will come into force and, despite what the hon. and learned Member for Beac...

Lord Garnier | 495 c202 (Link to this contribution) Could the Government think a little more carefully about another problem? They are in danger of lead...

Jack Straw | 495 c207 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman's imagination is running away with him. I promise him that that is no...

Jack Straw | 495 c192 (Link to this contribution) With respect to the hon. Gentleman, he is tilting at windmills.

Stuart Bell | 495 c253 (Link to this contribution) I have been listening all night long to this very interesting debate, which mixed up Sir Christopher...

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c212 (Link to this contribution) Order. We should try to return the debate to the narrow confines of the schedule.

Lord Young of Cookham | 495 c204 (Link to this contribution) Schedule 2 creates a new Commissioner for Parliamentary Investigations, but it leaves in place the e...

Jack Straw | 495 c256 (Link to this contribution) I am very happy to acknowledge that. I regard myself—whether others do is a matter for them—as someo...

Bernard Jenkin | 495 c252 (Link to this contribution) Before my hon. and learned Friend sits down, will he give us some advice about amendment 74? It stat...

Lord Young of Cookham | 495 c240 (Link to this contribution) The Minister made a helpful reply. I accept the implied rebuke that my drafting is not perfect and t...

Lord Cormack | 495 c244 (Link to this contribution) I am in a great dilemma. Today the current rules come to an end. As from tomorrow, we are supposed t...

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 495 c203 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment 4, page 16, line 28, after 'and...