UK Parliament / Open data

Fraud (Trials without a Jury) Bill

Debate on bills on Thursday, 25 January 2007, in the House of Commons, led by Mike O'Brien. The answering member was Dominic Grieve.
Fraud (Trials without a Jury) Bill. Report stage. New Clause 1 debated and agreed to. New Clauses 4 (discussed with New Clause 5), 9 (discussed with New Clauses 10, 11, 13, 14), 15 debated and withdrawn. New Clauses 5, 11, 13 debated and negatived on division. Third reading debate. Agreed to on division (281 votes to 246) and Bill passed.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

455 c1573-663 

Session

2006-07

Department

Home Office

Legislative stage

Third reading and Report stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Commons chamber

Proceeding contributions

Dominic Grieve | 455 c1574 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I have read the evidence, and it is compelling. The ju...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1574 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for her explanation in response to my intervention, but I cannot let t...

Show all contributions (173)
Keith Vaz | 455 c1574 (Link to this contribution) Has the hon. Gentleman had a chance to look at the evidence of Lord Justice Potter, the president of...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1573 (Link to this contribution) I do not intend to stand in the Minister’s way on new clause 1, but it is somewhat remarkable that a...
Joan Ryan | 455 c1573;455 c1573-4 (Link to this contribution) It was announced last year that the implementation of the procedural reforms in schedule 3 to the Cr...
Speaker | 455 c1573 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendment No. 5.
Joan Ryan | 455 c1573 (Link to this contribution) Owing to the structure of the Bill, what is really a minor transitional amendment must take the shap...
Joan Ryan | 455 c1573 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Simon Hughes | 455 c1578 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. and learned Gentleman is perfectly entitled to ask that, but he is being slightly mis...
James Clappison | 455 c1578-9 (Link to this contribution) I hear what the hon. Gentleman says about the way that his colleagues from England, Wales and Scotla...
Simon Hughes | 455 c1577 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Speaker | 455 c1577 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 5—Conditions to be satisfied (No. 2)— In sect...
Simon Hughes | 455 c1577-8 (Link to this contribution) As you indicated, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I will also speak to new clause 5, which, with your agreement,...
Viscount Hailsham | 455 c1578 (Link to this contribution) I am very glad to hear that the hon. Gentleman will ask his right hon. and hon. Friends to vote in f...
Viscount Hailsham | 455 c1575 (Link to this contribution) Should we not amend our practice to provide in primary statute that if an implementing order is not ...
Simon Hughes | 455 c1574-5 (Link to this contribution) I want to make three points similar to the point made by the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Griev...
Joan Ryan | 455 c1576 (Link to this contribution) Let me say to the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) that, as I have explained, new clause 1 ...
Simon Hughes | 455 c1575-6 (Link to this contribution) I support that entirely. I also support the provision for a sunset mechanism enabling such proposals...
Simon Hughes | 455 c1581 (Link to this contribution) Well, shall we say that it is a less principled position? I would understand it if the hon. and lear...
David Heath | 455 c1581 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend knows that I agree with him on this issue, but is not there another important distinc...
Simon Hughes | 455 c1581 (Link to this contribution) Let me make it clear that we do not believe that the move from jury trial to non-jury trial is in th...
Simon Hughes | 455 c1581-2 (Link to this contribution) I hope that my hon. Friend has drawn the hon. and learned |Member for Medway back towards us with th...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 455 c1580-1 (Link to this contribution) I have listened with great interest to what the hon. Gentleman has said, and his speech could—with s...
Simon Hughes | 455 c1580 (Link to this contribution) That is absolutely right, and the principle applies to the whole tribunal and courts system. The oth...
Viscount Hailsham | 455 c1580 (Link to this contribution) May I reinforce the point that the hon. Gentleman is making? If one puts 21counts on the indictment,...
Simon Hughes | 455 c1579-80 (Link to this contribution) I am very happy to have that debate on appropriate occasions, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and there will dou...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1586 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. and learned Friend says that he drafted the new clause, in which case I am rather perp...
Viscount Hailsham | 455 c1586 (Link to this contribution) I think the Liberal Democrats nicked it. [Laughter.]
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1586 (Link to this contribution) All I can say is that when I went to the Table Office to table my amendment I do not remember seeing...
Simon Hughes | 455 c1582-3 (Link to this contribution) Yes, that is a possible example. We need to be honest if we think that cases could fall into that ca...
Viscount Hailsham | 455 c1582 (Link to this contribution) May I suggest another class of case to which it might apply? It clearly exercised the mind of the co...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 455 c1584-5 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to be tiresome, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman is making a persuasive point a...
Viscount Hailsham | 455 c1583-4 (Link to this contribution) I rise to support what the hon. Member for North Southwark and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes) has said, a...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1585-6 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to hear the comments of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and ...
Viscount Hailsham | 455 c1585 (Link to this contribution) No, I do not think that it would be. The Government’s proposals rest exclusively on a trial’s length...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1587-8 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to hear the hon. Gentleman’s comments, but sorry that I may not be able to persuade him...
Kelvin Hopkins | 455 c1588 (Link to this contribution) I am interested in the hon. Gentleman’s arguments, with which I sympathise, like my hon. Friend the ...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1588 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Government whom he supports are greatly driven by opinion polls. In...
Robert Neill | 455 c1588-9 (Link to this contribution) Is not my hon. Friend’s point reinforced, and our concerns about the Government’s motivation and the...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1587 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman that that is an important consideration. We must be realis...
David Winnick | 455 c1587 (Link to this contribution) Although I will be giving the Government the benefit of the doubt, which I know is disappointing to ...
David Burrowes | 455 c1589 (Link to this contribution) I concur with my hon. Friend about the importance of maintaining the principle of jury trials. Shoul...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1589 (Link to this contribution) I agree: that point very much troubles me. Furthermore, at the time of the news of the collapse of t...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1589 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I agree. I encourage Members of the House who are concerned about w...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1590 (Link to this contribution) I will certainly give way to the hon. Gentleman, but I have agreed to give way to the hon. Member fo...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1590 (Link to this contribution) Let me deal with this issue. I will then give way. What I have just said is not the reason that sec...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1590 (Link to this contribution) I shall deal first with the detail of the new clauses before considering the more general arguments ...
David Heath | 455 c1589 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has covered some of the points that I wanted to make. It is an extraordinarily na...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1589-90 (Link to this contribution) I agree. That is what we must all try to do. I want to bring my remarks to a close. I commend new c...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1591 (Link to this contribution) If it is a safe verdict either way, why are we passing this Bill? That is the question that needs to...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1591 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right that that is the intention, but I was trying to deal with both sides of ...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1591 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Gentleman knows very well, he has misinterpreted what I have just said. We were talking ...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1591-2 (Link to this contribution) I am dealing with an intervention; I will happily give way in due course. What I have described mea...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1592 (Link to this contribution) Let me deal with the intervention and then I will give way. The report on Jubilee line case gives u...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1593 (Link to this contribution) I had promised to give way but I then intend to make progress. I give way first to my hon. Friend th...
David Winnick | 455 c1593 (Link to this contribution) The Government are having a relatively easy time from Labour Members because we recognise many of th...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1593 (Link to this contribution) I hear what my hon. Friend says. We have been careful in relation to the Bill. We brought forward, a...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 455 c1593 (Link to this contribution) On the narrow issue of the Jubilee line case and the inquiry, it needs to be placed on the record th...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1593-4 (Link to this contribution) I hear what my hon. and learned Friend says. I have recently written to him to set out in some detai...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1594 (Link to this contribution) I promised to give way to the right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham.
Viscount Hailsham | 455 c1594 (Link to this contribution) The Solicitor-General really must address the central issue in the debate, which is whether or not t...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1594 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) touched on the...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1595 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is not normally accused of hyperbole, but on this occasion such an accusation can...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1594 (Link to this contribution) The distinction is quite clear. There is no other area of criminal law that has had the history that...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1594 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to the hon. Member for Beaconsfield and then I must make some progress.
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1623 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Simon Hughes | 455 c1614-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the contributions on these new clauses. With your permission, Mr. Deputy Speaker, ...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1613-4 (Link to this contribution) There are all sorts of pressures on poor old Ministers. That might be one of them, but Ministers als...
Keith Vaz | 455 c1624 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman spoke of selling his idea to the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General. Has ...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1623-4 (Link to this contribution) This is my last attempt in what has been a long process to tempt the Government to take an alternati...
Speaker | 455 c1623 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government amendment Nos. 1 to 2. Amendme...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1613 (Link to this contribution) How do the Government respond to the fairness point? Leaving aside the past assurances—although I re...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1613 (Link to this contribution) As I have indicated, our view was that if we were to extend this right to the defence, we would do s...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1627 (Link to this contribution) Let me be very clear that it was Opposition Members who raised the issue with us in Committee and we...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1626-7 (Link to this contribution) The matter was discussed in Committee but the hon. and learned Gentleman would do better to direct h...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1628 (Link to this contribution) I do not dispute the history as the hon. Gentleman outlines it. However, having raised this matter i...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1627-8 (Link to this contribution) That is not the most persuasive argument that the Solicitor-General has ever put forward. He is abso...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1628 (Link to this contribution) I have no doubt that this exchange will be read with interest in another place. My personal view rem...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 455 c1629 (Link to this contribution) May I say how much I agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman’s comments and, in this case, w...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 455 c1625 (Link to this contribution) The new clause might help to solve what appears to be the insoluble problem of public interest immun...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1625-6 (Link to this contribution) We considered the matter in Committee. Indeed, we discussed the problem that would arise with trial ...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 455 c1626 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate that the question would be better directed to the Solicitor-General and I shall attempt...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1605-7 (Link to this contribution) The new clauses are important and we had an opportunity to explore some of the issues surrounding th...
Simon Hughes | 455 c1604-5 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. That is more true now that the rules on legal representation have changed. There has been cr...
Viscount Hailsham | 455 c1604 (Link to this contribution) May I add the other category, to which I alluded: cases which are likely to be a substantial cost to...
Simon Hughes | 455 c1603-4 (Link to this contribution) This group contains a range of proposals. Again, I preface my remarks by saying that they do not qua...
Speaker | 455 c1602-3 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: New clause 10—Duty to hear oral represent...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1595-6 (Link to this contribution) Over a long time, we have had a series of reports in relation to the criminal justice system, by ser...
David Howarth | 455 c1595 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can ask the question slightly differently, and without hyperbole: what difference does it ...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1612-3 (Link to this contribution) I might have saved the hon. Gentleman the trouble of intervening if I had made the point that I was ...
Viscount Hailsham | 455 c1611 (Link to this contribution) That is right. There is a general point that we need to keep in mind: even when a defence is funded ...
Robert Neill | 455 c1611 (Link to this contribution) I strongly agree with my right hon. and learned Friend. Does he agree that his point about costs wou...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1612 (Link to this contribution) At the risk of being repetitive, the two things are entirely different. The power to which the Solic...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1611 (Link to this contribution) This group of new clauses is interesting. The new clauses overlap to some extent, but they deal with...
Viscount Hailsham | 455 c1608-10 (Link to this contribution) I want to speak to new clauses 13 and 14, both of which I tabled. I also want to comment on new clau...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1607-8 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the Solicitor-General for not reading out the full paragraph. It was not that I wishe...
Viscount Hailsham | 455 c1610 (Link to this contribution) That, of course, is not true now, although it was true before the Lord Chancellor met the legitimate...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 455 c1610 (Link to this contribution) I am concerned about what the right hon. and learned Gentleman is saying, particularly in view of ca...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1607 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman says that there is no possibility of stopping the creep once the wedge is in the ...
David Heath | 455 c1639-40 (Link to this contribution) We entirely support the amendment on two grounds: one pragmatic, and one principled. The pragmatic r...
Joan Ryan | 455 c1640 (Link to this contribution) The Government have always signalled that they intended to move forward with the implementation of p...
Viscount Hailsham | 455 c1638-9 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 14, page 1, line 1, leave out clause 1. As we are coming to the conclus...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1639 (Link to this contribution) I shall be brief, as I am conscious that others wish to speak and that the Bill’s Report stage is co...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 455 c1635 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to embark on an amendment that will not make the cut, but it is obviously desirable th...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1634-5 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that the senior judiciary should be involved in a controversial political debate abou...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1637-8 (Link to this contribution) Despite the comments that the Solicitor-General has just made, I do not entirely share his confidenc...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1636-7 (Link to this contribution) I know that this concerns my hon. and learned Friend, so I shall deal with it at some length. The is...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 455 c1636 (Link to this contribution) It would be helpful if my hon. and learned Friend would deal with PII. It causes great concern. How ...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1635-6 (Link to this contribution) I would prefer not to put in the Bill a restriction on the discretion of the president of the Queen’...
Joan Ryan | 455 c1641 (Link to this contribution) I have to disagree with the hon. Gentleman; I think that we have had a great deal of discussion, and...
Lord Deben | 455 c1641 (Link to this contribution) Given that there have been so many discussions over such a long time, why has the Minister not convi...
Joan Ryan | 455 c1641-2 (Link to this contribution) The point has just been made to me that the right hon. Gentleman has only just come into the Chamber...
Joan Ryan | 455 c1640 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to the hon. Member for North Southwark and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes), because he was...
Joan Ryan | 455 c1640-1 (Link to this contribution) Let me just correct the hon. Gentleman. Exactly the same points were made in Committee, as he knows....
Simon Hughes | 455 c1640 (Link to this contribution) The Minister must not misrepresent the situation, and I am sure that she is not doing so intentional...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1641 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is kind to give way. She really cannot escape the fact that, in the stand-alone Bill be...
Joan Ryan | 455 c1641 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve), and then I will move on.
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 455 c1631 (Link to this contribution) May I profoundly disagree? High Court judges are a brainy lot, but one of the problems in our system...
David Heath | 455 c1631-2 (Link to this contribution) It seems that the hon. and learned Gentleman might be arguing for the recruitment of new High Court ...
Viscount Hailsham | 455 c1631 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that many cases that are tried before Crown court judges are imme...
David Heath | 455 c1631 (Link to this contribution) We are returning, in a circular fashion, to the earlier argument. No, there is nothing particularly ...
David Heath | 455 c1630-1 (Link to this contribution) I ought to know that by now. I cannot agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman on the issue ...
David Heath | 455 c1629-30 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that it is without precedent, as I seem to have stood here on many occasions and heard...
Greg Knight | 455 c1629 (Link to this contribution) Is not it virtually without precedent that not a single Labour Back Bencher has stood up in support ...
David Heath | 455 c1629 (Link to this contribution) All Opposition Members, and many Labour Members, are totally against the Bill. That is our great pro...
Viscount Hailsham | 455 c1629 (Link to this contribution) That is a very sound observation, and I was pleased to add my name to that amendment drafted by the ...
Keith Vaz | 455 c1634 (Link to this contribution) In response to an intervention by the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve), my hon. and learned...
David Heath | 455 c1632 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that it is an open question; some of us will defend English legal process. The only ad...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1632-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) was not convincing in his efforts to tempt me down the...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1633-4 (Link to this contribution) Let me be clear about this. When we introduced the Bill, it was our view that the figure could be up...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1632 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
David Heath | 455 c1632 (Link to this contribution) That is a valid point—and as my hon. Friend said, it was made by the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (M...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1632 (Link to this contribution) It is indeed perfectly familiar in Napoleonic law, so there is a precedent. Whether it is a commenda...
David Heath | 455 c1632 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman wishes to tell me that that is perfectly familiar in Napoleonic law.
David Howarth | 455 c1632 (Link to this contribution) Is not the answer to the point made by the hon. and learned Member for Medway (Mr. Marshall-Andrews)...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1651 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill), but then I must make ...
Robert Neill | 455 c1651 (Link to this contribution) Will the Solicitor-General confirm that in the circumstances to which he has referred—summary trial ...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1651-2 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has made two points. Neither of them was particularly good, but I will deal with ...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1650 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time. The Government are committed to rebalancin...
Bob Spink | 455 c1650 (Link to this contribution) As fraud trials often pivot on whether the defendant has acted dishonestly, and the legal test of di...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1650-1 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman should have listened to what I said. He need only walk down the road and around t...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1652-3 (Link to this contribution) I will not give way, because many Members will probably wish to speak. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman wi...
Speaker | 455 c1655 (Link to this contribution) Order. I remind all hon. Members that the debate on Third Reading concludes at 6 pm. Several hon. Me...
Keith Vaz | 455 c1655-6 (Link to this contribution) May I first declare my interest as an employed barrister, although I have never practised in the are...
Jeremy Wright | 455 c1654 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that this is a bad Bill not only for the reasons that he is giving, but be...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1654-5 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is quite right. All the evidence points that way; indeed, the interviews with the jur...
Philip Davies | 455 c1654 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that the Bill is typical of what we get from this Government, who take the...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1654 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a very good point. There are strong indications that this Government do not lik...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1653 (Link to this contribution) Judges in our country often have enormous responsibilities and have over centuries taken on the burd...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1653-4 (Link to this contribution) Every time that I hear the Solicitor-General or another Minister talking about rebalancing the crimi...
Edward Leigh | 455 c1653 (Link to this contribution) I served on a jury before Christmas, and I was extraordinarily impressed by how dedicated ordinary p...
David Winnick | 455 c1656 (Link to this contribution) Is my right hon. Friend aware that those of us who will support the Bill are giving the Government t...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 455 c1658 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has got the point—very late. [Laughter.] What depresses me and many others more than...
Stephen Pound | 455 c1658 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. and learned Friend give way?
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 455 c1658-9 (Link to this contribution) No. If my hon. Friend had spent more than 10 minutes in this debate, I would give way to him immedia...
Keith Vaz | 455 c1656 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend. He will vote with the Government although he disagrees with the Bill, I...
Simon Hughes | 455 c1656-7 (Link to this contribution) This is a four-clause Bill with one proposition. I hope that when the Division comes colleagues will...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 455 c1657-8 (Link to this contribution) In the limited time available, I will start by giving the Government the benefit of the doubt. It hu...
Andrew Pelling | 455 c1613 (Link to this contribution) The Solicitor-General has made it clear on every occasion during the Bill’s progress that he has no ...
Dominic Grieve | 455 c1624-5 (Link to this contribution) Let me briefly recap what has happened since 2003. I shall try not to take too long. An assurance wa...
Speaker | 455 c1579 (Link to this contribution) Order. I sensed that the hon. Gentleman was about to conclude his remarks on this point. I do not th...
David Howarth | 455 c1586 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a good point about one effect of new clause 5. Does he agree that it has a ...
David Howarth | 455 c1590-1 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Solicitor-General for giving way, but he has got the argument the wrong way round. The n...
Viscount Hailsham | 455 c1628-9 (Link to this contribution) I wish to say a few words about amendment No. 15, which stands in my name. It is similar in terms to...
Simon Hughes | 455 c1602 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Joan Ryan | 455 c1640 (Link to this contribution) May I just make this point? The Government have kept faith with all the commitments that they made. ...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 455 c1633 (Link to this contribution) May I take up my hon. and learned Friend on that point? He has said again that there will be about s...
Simon Hughes | 455 c1596-8 (Link to this contribution) This debate has been more interesting than I anticipated it would be. We have heard about three diff...
Mike O'Brien | 455 c1595 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to the hon. Member for Cambridge and then I really must make progress.
Back to top