Fraud (Trials without a Jury) Bill

I am not sure that it is without precedent, as I seem to have stood here on many occasions and heard not a single argument in favour of the Government, other than from their Front Bench. That is more a reflection of the quality of the legislation put before us than of the assiduity or otherwise of Labour Back Benchers. It is often difficult for them to support what Ministers would ask us to accept. We must make a judgment as to whether the amendments would marginally improve an otherwise appalling Bill and should therefore be supported, or whether they cross a narrow line whereby, were they passed, the provisions would still be so abhorrent as to be unacceptable. I have difficulties with the amendments in this group. I listened carefully to the comments of the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve), as I always do, and I know that he is trying to find some escape clause for the Government—some way that they can retreat while retaining some degree of face. He knows that we have all tried to find ways in which some of the arguments used can be accommodated. One of the difficulties is that the argument for the Bill changes almost every time that it is put—sometimes within the space of 10 minutes. The Solicitor-General can veer from one argument in support of the Bill to a totally different one when stymied by an intervention from the Opposition. It is therefore difficult to work out what the Government are trying to achieve. In good faith, however, we have asked whether there are better ways of managing such complex and lengthy trials and of protecting jurors from the difficulties that they might face. We have always maintained the absolute position that the jury element—not necessarily the 12 good men and true of the present structure, for there are other ways of empanelling a jury, but lay finders of fact—is the essential element. We have to consider whether the panel of experts proposed by the hon. Member for Beaconsfield constitutes a jury. Is he suggesting a form of judging panel, not consisting of lay members of the public who are the peers of the accused? Is he suggesting a different way of setting up a panel of judges? Our view is that the hon. Gentleman’s proposal falls on the wrong side of the line. New clause 15 deals with one of the Solicitor-General’s arguments, which is that cases of this kind are terribly difficult and that it is sometimes extremely onerous for juries to comprehend them and assimilate large volumes of material. The professionals suggested by the hon. Gentleman would presumably be better placed to do that than a person drawn at random from the population. The new clause does not, however, pass the other tests that the Government occasionally adduce as reasons for the Bill, and, as I have said, it loses an important ingredient in not retaining the nature of a lay jury. That is why my hon. Friends and I will not be able to support the panel idea, although we applaud the hon. Gentleman for trying to find ways of dissuading the Government from their ultimate course of action, even at this late hour. The hon. and learned Member for Medway (Mr. Marshall-Andrews) has been very clever in smuggling his amendments, which were not selected, into the debate. I agree with some of the important points that he made, but I cannot agree with him, or with the right hon. and learned Member for—