Fraud (Trials without a Jury) Bill

I am grateful for the contributions on these new clauses. With your permission, Mr. Deputy Speaker, we intend to test the mood of the House in respect of new clauses 11 and 13. New clause 9 is different from new clause 13, as it would allow an application on the instigation of the defendant alone, whereas new clause 13 would allow equality of arms. Those of my colleagues at the other end of the Corridor who oppose the Bill believe that, if we are obliged to go ahead with it, then trials should be held without a jury only at the instigation of the defence, and not at the instigation of defence and prosecution. None of us wants to go down that road, but the equality argument—one of the central planks of this short debate—remains valid, despite what the Solicitor-General said to the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve). If there is a case for the prosecutor to go to the judge and say that the case should be heard by a judge alone rather than by a jury, I cannot see how justice is done if the defendant cannot also do so. To put it bluntly, there are two proposed alternatives. The first is that the defendant alone could make the application. I understand that the Government will resist that. The second is that there is equality of arms. I have not heard such a strong argument against that. The Government have said honestly that that was not where they were coming from, so that was not where they were. If, despite our opposition, the Bill receives a Third Reading and goes to the House of Lords for consideration, I hope that the Solicitor-General will reflect on whether at least that might be a step in a direction that made it more attractive—not that we would change our view on the substance of the Bill this year, but if the Bill were to become law in future. There is a difference in importance between new clause 10 and new clause 11. I understand what the Solicitor-General said about the other sections in the 2003 Act which deal with the procedure of putting to the judge in a preparatory hearing the case for both sides before the judge makes that decision. New clause 10 barely increases the strength of the right to do that. It would make a small adjustment. New clause 11, however, would make a significant adjustment to the proposition. It adds another safeguard. We absolutely do not want the Bill, but if we are to have it, there need to be safeguards: the interests of justice safeguard, the security of the verdict safeguard and the interests of the defendant or the prejudice to the defence safeguard. The new clause seeks to ensure that we retain the prejudice to the defendant safeguard. Finally, I turn to the matter that was referred to in the Government’s consideration of the position. I do not believe that the Government argument that if one gave equality of arms, it would suddenly open up the debate, stands more than minimal investigation or consideration. Of course there would be the potential for more applications because both prosecution and defence would apply. Therefore there might be more trials of this type. The Government case is that this would be limited to serious fraud in any event, subject to the check of the judge and all the arguments, and then the check of the Lord Chief Justice or others, so there will be many checks down that road. In a way the Government have put their case on the basis of its being an experiment. For there to be an experiment, both sides need to have an equal opportunity to participate. That is not the case. It is a reason why the Bill should not proceed. If it does proceed, I hope that that is a reason why the House should support the new clauses. If I may, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion. Motion, by leave, withdrawn.