Fraud (Trials without a Jury) Bill

Yes, that is a possible example. We need to be honest if we think that cases could fall into that category, and share what we think about them. I had not thought about that example, but it could be included. Indeed, serious fraud is one of the offences that often has international aspects, such as carousel fraud, and might therefore involve defendants who are non-British or do not have English as their first language. New clause 5 would insert a second, separate, protection into the Bill. It is subject to the same criticism as the right hon. and learned Gentleman made a moment ago in that it is not a substitute for a jury trial. However, it would add to the Bill a further test that serious consideration should be given to conducting the trial without a jury if the interests of justice require it"““by reason of the complexity or length of the trial, or both, and their likely impact on the safety of the verdict””." It is possible that a verdict might be thought to be less safe because of the mental or emotional state of the defendant or some of the witnesses or where the recollection was of events that happened a very long time ago. I am thinking of cases of which I or others have had experience. Usually, the safety of the verdict consideration is adequately answered by the judge’s regular admonition to the members of the jury that they cannot convict until they are sure beyond any reasonable doubt. That is a high barrier. It is a hurdle that the English legal system has insisted on so that people are not convicted if there is a serious or reasonable doubt. I do not claim that there are many such cases, but the burden should lie on the Solicitor-General or other Ministers to explain why cases need to be taken away from juries and given to individual judges in the interests of justice. The Solicitor-General gave one example to do with the fullness of the evil of the activity, and we may hear that again in a moment, but if he wants to add further examples, the burden of explaining his reasoning lies with him. The essence of yesterday’s debate on foreign policy and defence in respect of Iraq was about how we establish the rule of law and democracy in other countries, and about our obligation to those countries in which Britain has had an interest historically. There was no vote at the end to decide the law of the land. Although this debate does not have the same parliamentary magnitude, we believe that juries should continue to be used in as many cases that come before the higher courts as possible, for three fundamental reasons. First, the system has worked very well historically. Secondly, it has the confidence of the public, as people trust lay magistrates and juries far more than they do professional lawyers and judges. Thirdly, there is no evidence that a two-tier justice system would not be regarded as one that did not give equal justice to everyone. Courts convict people and send them to prison, so they must be able to be relied on to reach the proper verdict for every defendant. We spend many days in the House talking about victims and about how we can make sure that the guilty are convicted more securely and effectively, but we must also make sure that our system has the confidence of the public and is fair to defendants. Our new clauses are designed to improve the Bill, although I hope that it does not become law. If we have to have a Bill like this, it needs to be made tougher, and that is what these new clauses aim to do.