Parliamentary Standards Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Tuesday, 14 July 2009, in the House of Lords.

Parliamentary Standards Bill. Lords Committee stage first day. Clauses 1, 2, 5 agreed to. Clauses 3, 4, 6 agreed to as amended. Clause 7 disagreed. Schedule 1 agreed to as amended. Schedules 2 and 3 agreed to.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

712 c1046-111,1126-58

Session

2008-09

Proceeding contributions

Lord Strathclyde | 712 c1046-8 (Link to this contribution) I trust that your Lordships will bear with me as I try to fill the giant gap left in our counsels by...

Lord Strathclyde | 712 c1046 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 1 1: Before Clause 1, insert the following new Clause— "Bill of Rights Nothing in this Ac...

Show all contributions (293)

Lord Strathclyde | 712 c1048 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I can make it quite clear. We will certainly press this to a vote. I find it extraordinary that...

Lord Barnett | 712 c1048 (Link to this contribution) I have listened carefully to what the noble Lord has just said. Can he tell us whether he meant that...

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 712 c1051 (Link to this contribution) I fail to understand the noble Lord’s position. He says that the amendment is not necessary, but is ...

Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 712 c1049-51 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness. I have to say that I am sorry that that statement has been made...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 712 c1051 (Link to this contribution) If we hear my noble friend, who I think was making an intervention, I am sure that we can then move ...

Lord Campbell of Alloway | 712 c1051 (Link to this contribution) My name is down—

Lord Peston | 712 c1051 (Link to this contribution) If we are being told—

Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 712 c1051 (Link to this contribution) Any harm would be, if in future, because the amendment refers only to this Bill, it were to be inter...

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 712 c1051 (Link to this contribution) I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Lester, has said, except his conclusion, because if he conclu...

Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 712 c1051 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that this is an occasion for forensic sarcasm. I am simply saying that Parliament sho...

Lord Peston | 712 c1051 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord leaves me completely bewildered. Is he saying, after the Leader of the Official Oppos...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 712 c1106 (Link to this contribution) This has been a short but interesting debate. I assure the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, that the Bil...

Baroness Hamwee | 712 c1107 (Link to this contribution) I will not press it, but I simply disagree with the noble Lord’s interpretation. I had certainly nev...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 712 c1107 (Link to this contribution) I did not mention a salary. I said it was an amount or sum allowed to a person, especially regularly...

Baroness Hamwee | 712 c1107 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, said that he felt that "payment" had the implications of "salary"....

Lord Cope of Berkeley | 712 c1107 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 25A 25A: Clause 3, page 2, line 11, at end insert— "( ) the Speaker of the House of Commo...

Baroness Hayman | 712 c1105 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 21B pre-empts Amendment 22. Clause 2 agreed.

Baroness Hamwee | 712 c1105 (Link to this contribution) Clause 3: MPs' allowances scheme Amendment 23 23: Clause 3, page 2, line 4, leave out "pay allowan...

Baroness Hamwee | 712 c1105-6 (Link to this contribution) I will also speak to Amendments 24, 25 and 27 to 31. This group follows the previous debate very nea...

Lord Strathclyde | 712 c1106 (Link to this contribution) I will be brief. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, that there is always a problem. There...

Lord Cope of Berkeley | 712 c1109 (Link to this contribution) Grouped with these amendments are Amendments 39A and 39B in my name, both of which seek to leave out...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 712 c1109 (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Baroness’s wording of "from time to time". The words as they currently are in th...

Baroness Hamwee | 712 c1108 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 36 36: Clause 5, page 3, line 28, leave out "regularly" and insert "from time to time"

Baroness Hamwee | 712 c1108-9 (Link to this contribution) In moving Amendment 36, I will speak also to Amendments 37, 39 and 41. This is something of a ragbag...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 712 c1109 (Link to this contribution) I endorse the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Cope. Paid advocacy is paid advocacy and I s...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 712 c1107 (Link to this contribution) At the risk of incurring the wrath of the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, I agree. We support the noble Lor...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 712 c1107-8 (Link to this contribution) The amendment makes clear that the allowances which may be included in the scheme and paid by IPSA i...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1108 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 33A 33A: Clause 4, page 3, line 15, leave out from "is" to "to" in line 16 Amendment 33A...

Lord Cope of Berkeley | 712 c1107 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 25B 25B: Clause 3, page 2, line 14, leave out paragraph (c) Amendment 25B agreed. Amend...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 712 c1107 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 28A 28A: Clause 3, page 2, line 30, at end insert— "(7A) The scheme may provide for allow...

Lord Tyler | 712 c1101 (Link to this contribution) I think that it will reject it, so why are we pursuing it in this way? I await with interest what th...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 712 c1101-2 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, sums up, I wonder whether I could ask a technical question....

Lord Strathclyde | 712 c1102 (Link to this contribution) When I saw this amendment on the Marshalled List, I knew that it would lead to quite a substantial d...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 712 c1100 (Link to this contribution) Despite the very wise words of the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, as I have been listening to ...

Earl of Onslow | 712 c1100 (Link to this contribution) Has not the noble and learned Baroness given a perfect answer for not having this Bill at all until ...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 712 c1100-1 (Link to this contribution) I am talking only about Clauses 2 and 3. I am not at the moment talking about the entire Bill; I hav...

Lord Tyler | 712 c1101 (Link to this contribution) I want to contribute briefly to the debate, not least because I want to put it on record that I am b...

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 712 c1098-9 (Link to this contribution) I support what the noble Earl has said. I was all those years ago—although it is hard to believe—a m...

Lord Graham of Edmonton | 712 c1099-100 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may enlighten the Committee as to how previously we went about looking after our own inter...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1105 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 21B 21B: Clause 2, page 2, line 2, leave out "(as to which see further section 7)" Amend...

Earl of Onslow | 712 c1105 (Link to this contribution) If I may reply before my noble and learned friend Lord Lyell, I completely agree with what the noble...

Lord Lyell of Markyate | 712 c1105 (Link to this contribution) I agree with what my noble friend has said; he has said many of the things that I was about to. We a...

Lord Lyell of Markyate | 712 c1104 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister assure me that there is nothing in the drafting of the Bill as he understands it th...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 712 c1104 (Link to this contribution) That is my understanding. I come back to the point that the noble and learned Lord made at the start...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 712 c1103-4 (Link to this contribution) I do not agree. One needs to recognise that the review body covers many more people than just MPs. I...

Lord Tyler | 712 c1103 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister also accept that under several Governments, when it was alleged that the economy w...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 712 c1103 (Link to this contribution) That is the other side of the coin, of course. My understanding is that the SSRB, which has a thankl...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 712 c1102-3 (Link to this contribution) This has been an extremely interesting debate. Although the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell, will...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 712 c1093 (Link to this contribution) Can we allow the Deputy Chairman of Committees to follow the appropriate procedure?

Lord Lyell of Markyate | 712 c1092-3 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend is absolutely right. In fact, I have written on my notes that I would be accused of ...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1093 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord wishes to speak.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 712 c1093 (Link to this contribution) Lord Bridges!

Earl of Onslow | 712 c1093 (Link to this contribution) My amendment is grouped with Amendment 21—

Lord Bridges | 712 c1093 (Link to this contribution) I wish to comment briefly on the remarks made by the noble and learned Lord. He touches on some extr...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 712 c1093 (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl’s amendments are in this group. It is perfectly sensible for him to speak to them now...

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 712 c1094-5 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, got in before me, because he has said that the Governmen...

Earl of Onslow | 712 c1094 (Link to this contribution) I must admit that parts of this Committee have reminded me totally and utterly of the wireless progr...

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 712 c1095 (Link to this contribution) I was going to come to him. The editor of the Daily Mail, for goodness’ sake, gets over £1 million. ...

Earl of Onslow | 712 c1095 (Link to this contribution) Jonathan Ross is paid even more.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 712 c1095-6 (Link to this contribution) They were claimed under second home allowances and they are embarrassing. Some of those who appeared...

Lord Shutt of Greetland | 712 c1097 (Link to this contribution) I have some sympathy for the reasoning behind the amendments tabled by the noble and learned Lord, L...

Lord Cope of Berkeley | 712 c1096-7 (Link to this contribution) We should get back to the Bill before long, but I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes—not necess...

Earl Ferrers | 712 c1097-8 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that my noble and learned friend has tabled the amendment because it goes to the heart of ...

Lord Bach | 712 c1089 (Link to this contribution) I take the noble Lord’s point. If I have dealt with him too literally, perhaps he will understand wh...

Lord Goodhart | 712 c1089 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the Minister again. The amendments in my name would remove the conditions, b...

Lord Bach | 712 c1088-9 (Link to this contribution) If the Bill does not allow for that, we must look at it after Committee. It is certainly our intenti...

Lord Goodhart | 712 c1088 (Link to this contribution) That is not how it is spelt out in the legislation, which refers specifically to an MP’s right to sp...

Lord Bach | 712 c1088 (Link to this contribution) As I understand it, the Member of Parliament can explain his own position.

Lord Goodhart | 712 c1088 (Link to this contribution) I suggested that the amendment might mean that, but, if that is so, why should the Member not also h...

Earl Ferrers | 712 c1089 (Link to this contribution) Will that letter be sent in time for Report?

Lord Bach | 712 c1089 (Link to this contribution) Yes, it will.

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 712 c1089 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the Minister’s explanation, but I am afraid that I totally misunderstood what this...

Lord Bach | 712 c1089 (Link to this contribution) What the noble Lord asks for is utterly reasonable and I will ensure that a letter is written that c...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 712 c1090 (Link to this contribution) We have not got to that amendment yet. We would like to get there soon, but I am not sure that we wi...

Lord Higgins | 712 c1090 (Link to this contribution) I thought that the Minister said in a discussion with my noble friend Lord Cope that the Government ...

Lord Lyell of Markyate | 712 c1090-1 (Link to this contribution) I will try not to detain your Lordships for too long. In speaking to Amendment 21, I shall speak als...

Lord Lyell of Markyate | 712 c1090 (Link to this contribution) Clause 2: MPs' salaries Amendment 21 21: Clause 2, page 1, line 17, at end insert— "( ) In fixing ...

Lord Higgins | 712 c1090 (Link to this contribution) Why is IPSA setting these conditions? Why are they not in the Bill?

Lord Bach | 712 c1090 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 19C 19C: Schedule 1, page 14, line 11, leave out paragraph (d) Amendment 19C agreed. Am...

Lord Bach | 712 c1090 (Link to this contribution) There has to be some discretion. Not every condition can be in the Bill. Perhaps the noble Lord will...

Lord Gordon of Strathblane | 712 c1092 (Link to this contribution) Just so that I and perhaps other Members of the House are clear, does this mean that an MP for Orkne...

Lord Lyell of Markyate | 712 c1092 (Link to this contribution) I think that it probably does. During the years when I was in Parliament, there was perceived to be ...

Lord King of Bridgwater | 712 c1092 (Link to this contribution) I may have misunderstood, but my noble and learned friend said that he did not want to dictate to th...

Lord Bach | 712 c1084 (Link to this contribution) I rise to attempt to help the Committee. The first line of Amendment 43A, to which I have spoken, st...

Lord Higgins | 712 c1084 (Link to this contribution) I think not. I am speaking to Amendment 43A. Perhaps the noble Lord will look at new subsection (5)(...

Lord Strathclyde | 712 c1084 (Link to this contribution) This is a substantial group of government amendments, and they will need careful consideration durin...

Lord Higgins | 712 c1084 (Link to this contribution) As it appears that my noble friend is winding up, perhaps I may comment briefly. The amendments are ...

Lord Bach | 712 c1086 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 75 is a probing amendment that deals with the rights of a Member of Parliament. It was spo...

Lord Strathclyde | 712 c1085-6 (Link to this contribution) Those last two or three interventions were extremely useful, especially that of my noble and learned...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 712 c1085 (Link to this contribution) I want to ask about the relative position of the code of conduct and the financial rules. I understa...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 712 c1085 (Link to this contribution) In Amendment 43A, under new subsection (5B), which deals with registration, the commissioner has to ...

Lord Bach | 712 c1086 (Link to this contribution) We are giving the commissioner power not to make a report about the Member’s case to the committee i...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 712 c1086 (Link to this contribution) Does that mean that the Standards and Privileges Committee will not be informed of cases of failure ...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 712 c1086-7 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to press my noble friend on that, but I am going back to the period that I spent on the c...

Lord Bach | 712 c1087 (Link to this contribution) Many of the commissioner’s powers in this regard depend on whether the Member of Parliament acknowle...

Lord Goodhart | 712 c1087 (Link to this contribution) What happens if the commissioner carries out the investigation and finds that there was no fault on ...

Lord Bach | 712 c1087 (Link to this contribution) I am beginning to think that it may be necessary for me to ask the Committee’s permission to take Am...

Lord Cope of Berkeley | 712 c1087 (Link to this contribution) I would prefer the Government to put Amendment 43A into the Bill while saying that they will conside...

Lord Crickhowell | 712 c1087 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with what my noble friend said and I welcome the Minister’s response. However, he s...

Lord Bach | 712 c1087 (Link to this contribution) The advice of an ex-Chief Whip, even on the opposition Benches, is always invaluable. I am going to ...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 712 c1088 (Link to this contribution) Is the commissioner’s report not simply the facts? It would be unprecedented for the committee to wa...

Lord Bach | 712 c1087-8 (Link to this contribution) I take the noble Lord’s point. It is the same point that my noble friend was making. That is one of ...

Lord Bach | 712 c1088 (Link to this contribution) It is about facts but, so that parliamentary privilege is absolutely certain, as we understand it, t...

Lord Bach | 712 c1077 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 19B 19B: Schedule 1, page 14, line 10, leave out "6(6)" and insert "6(5)(b), (5B)(c), (6)...

Lord Bach | 712 c1076 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Lord. We will take that away and consider that possible minor, but h...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 712 c1076 (Link to this contribution) I have listened with great care and am full of admiration for the Minister, who is answering, and th...

Lord Tyler | 712 c1077 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 19 19: Schedule 1, page 13, line 36, leave out "ensure that" and insert "comply with sub-...

Lord Shutt of Greetland | 712 c1077 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for his response to the amendments standing in my name and that of the...

Lord Bach | 712 c1075 (Link to this contribution) I am, as always, very grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his observations. Obviously they ha...

Lord Woolf | 712 c1075 (Link to this contribution) It might be convenient if I mention one more matter at this stage; I recognise that this is not nece...

Lord Bach | 712 c1075-6 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has got the better of me: I have no clue as to the answer to his question, but I thin...

Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 712 c1075 (Link to this contribution) Would the Minister give way on another point? It may be regarded as the sort of wild contingency tha...

Lord Bach | 712 c1074-5 (Link to this contribution) This may, again, be a matter of drafting. I have just been advised that it does mean a minimum of on...

Lord Tyler | 712 c1084 (Link to this contribution) We do not know that yet. I am a comparative novice in this House; I have been here only some four ye...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 712 c1083 (Link to this contribution) I ask a practical question. I understood that Clause 7 was not going to be proceeded with.

Lord Tyler | 712 c1082-3 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend Lord Goodhart and I tabled Amendment 75, not being quite aware at that stage whether...

Earl Ferrers | 712 c1082 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the Minister could clarify one small point which is simple compared with all the other probl...

Lord Cope of Berkeley | 712 c1081-2 (Link to this contribution) I have two amendments in this group. Amendment 48B suggests that the Speaker of the House of Commons...

Earl of Onslow | 712 c1081 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the noble Lord on the Front Bench can help me. Unlike some other noble Lords, I am somewhat ...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 712 c1081 (Link to this contribution) In order to try to make Amendment 43A and Clause 6 work, I have one question for the Minister and so...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 712 c1080-1 (Link to this contribution) It may be appropriate for me to follow the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, although—and in this there is ...

Lord Goodhart | 712 c1079-80 (Link to this contribution) I will speak to the amendments in this very large group that are in my name and those of my noble fr...

Lord Bach | 712 c1077-9 (Link to this contribution) This group of amendments deals with the changes to the investigation and enforcement regime that the...

Lord Cope of Berkeley | 712 c1063 (Link to this contribution) In the light of what the Leader of the House has said, I shall not move the amendments in my name wh...

Lord Strathclyde | 712 c1060-1 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that the Government have ever accepted one of my amendments made in opposition. There...

Lord Cope of Berkeley | 712 c1062 (Link to this contribution) With your Lordships’ permission, I shall treat Amendments 13A, 13B and 20B as being still grouped wi...

Earl of Onslow | 712 c1062 (Link to this contribution) This amendment seems to make complete sense. I have great sympathy with the amendment of the noble B...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 712 c1062-3 (Link to this contribution) I have reservations about the "not us, only them" approach to the Bill. The reality is that, in the ...

Lord Strathclyde | 712 c1061 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 2 2: Before Clause 1, insert the following new Clause— "House of Lords Nothing in this Ac...

Lord Strathclyde | 712 c1061 (Link to this contribution) I accept the noble Baroness’s assurances. There are other amendments grouped with this one. I look f...

Baroness Hamwee | 712 c1061 (Link to this contribution) Clause 1: Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority etc Amendment 3 3: Clause 1, page 1, line ...

Baroness Hamwee | 712 c1061-2 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to the Amendments 3 to 6 standing in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Shutt of...

Baroness Hamwee | 712 c1063-4 (Link to this contribution) I am obviously disappointed with what the Leader of the House has had to say about our amendments. T...

Lord Tyler | 712 c1064 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 7 7: Clause 1, page 1, line 11, after "Committee" insert "("the Committee")"

Baroness Hamwee | 712 c1066 (Link to this contribution) When the Minister reconsiders Amendment 18, will he also consider whether there is any need to say a...

Lord Bach | 712 c1066 (Link to this contribution) As I understand it, we want to get this institution up and running as fast as possible, perhaps befo...

Lord Tyler | 712 c1065 (Link to this contribution) I think that I said in my opening speech on this group that we understand that the appropriate place...

Lord Bach | 712 c1066 (Link to this contribution) It will be a great pleasure to accept most of the amendments that have been so well spoken to by the...

Lord Strathclyde | 712 c1065 (Link to this contribution) The Government expect to get Royal Assent on the Bill within a week, yet here we are with my noble f...

Lord Swinfen | 712 c1065 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 7 refers to line 11 on page 1 and states, ""after ‘Committee’ insert ‘(‘The Committee’)’"....

Lord Tyler | 712 c1064-5 (Link to this contribution) The Committee may be relieved to hear that there are no great issues of principle in this group of a...

Lord Cope of Berkeley | 712 c1065 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 18A is in my name. It has been listed in the next group, but it refers to the point that t...

Baroness Hamwee | 712 c1066 (Link to this contribution) I understand that, but as long as the institution is there, there should be no distinction between t...

Lord Crickhowell | 712 c1066-7 (Link to this contribution) For once, I can come to the Minister’s help in that I have set up and been a chairman of a public bo...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 712 c1067 (Link to this contribution) It is also worth pointing out that the chief executive is to be appointed by IPSA, whereas the inter...

Lord Cope of Berkeley | 712 c1067 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful that the Minister should think of accepting my amendment, but if he accepts ...

Lord Tyler | 712 c1067-8 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for his response. However, I should withdraw Amendment 7 because it is...

Lord Shutt of Greetland | 712 c1068 (Link to this contribution) Schedule 1: Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority Amendment 9 9: Schedule 1, page 10, line...

Lord Shutt of Greetland | 712 c1068-9 (Link to this contribution) This group of amendments concerns the setting up of IPSA, which is what we had better call it now. A...

Lord Crickhowell | 712 c1069-70 (Link to this contribution) I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, would raise a point I referred to in my speech at Second ...

Lord Cope of Berkeley | 712 c1070-1 (Link to this contribution) After that row of contributions from persons who have held high judicial office, perhaps I may turn ...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 712 c1070 (Link to this contribution) I wish to raise two practical points, one of which is a question to the Minister. Paragraph 1(2) of ...

Lord Woolf | 712 c1070 (Link to this contribution) I echo the point as to age that has just been made by my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss....

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 712 c1072 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may add to the fine print of the important points raised in Amendment 9, in relation to th...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 712 c1072 (Link to this contribution) In terms of considering numbers, I think that we might be a little premature. We are not altogether ...

Lord Borrie | 712 c1071 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Cope of Berkeley, referred to the funding paragraph in the schedule, paragraph ...

Lord Cope of Berkeley | 712 c1071 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is a lawyer; I am not. That may be the correct interpretation, but it seemed to me od...

Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 712 c1074 (Link to this contribution) I return to the Minister’s point, which he made off the cuff, understandably, and without looking at...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 712 c1053 (Link to this contribution) A Member of Parliament should be responsible to his constituents, not to the courts, a point that wa...

Lord Campbell of Alloway | 712 c1053 (Link to this contribution) Hear, hear.

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 712 c1052-3 (Link to this contribution) The four amendments grouped with Amendment 1 are in my name. It prompts me to ask the noble Baroness...

Lord Campbell of Alloway | 712 c1052 (Link to this contribution) As I support the amendment, I am relieved that noble Lords are equally as bewildered as me. I simply...

Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 712 c1051 (Link to this contribution) I would not dream of voting against it. All I am saying is that we are a legislative body looking at...

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 712 c1053 (Link to this contribution) I—

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 712 c1053 (Link to this contribution) May I just finish my sentence? I want to be assured that there is no possibility of a member of the ...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 712 c1054-5 (Link to this contribution) I raise a simple point. We always look at the Bill of Rights as something that created a massive, mo...

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 712 c1054 (Link to this contribution) I find it strange that we are continuing this debate. I listened carefully to the noble Lord, Lord J...

Lord Higgins | 712 c1055-6 (Link to this contribution) For some 10 years, until the last election, Lord Kingsland and I shared a very small room just off t...

Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 712 c1055 (Link to this contribution) I will clarify one point. What noble Lords have been saying is completely right: the issue relates t...

Earl of Onslow | 712 c1054 (Link to this contribution) Briefly, all my House of Commons friends individually tell me that the morale of that House is absol...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 712 c1054 (Link to this contribution) Briefly, I have spent much of my time over the past week reading through the Bill. I firmly endorse ...

Lord Campbell of Alloway | 712 c1056 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend sits down, I assure him and the Committee that I cut my speech but I accept t...

Lord Higgins | 712 c1056 (Link to this contribution) That may well be the case and my noble friend may be right.

Lord Lyell of Markyate | 712 c1056-7 (Link to this contribution) I listened very carefully to what the noble Lord, Lord Lester, said when he referred, as he did on S...

Lord Strathclyde | 712 c1057 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness winds up the debate, I should point out that in her first speech she said ...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1057 (Link to this contribution) I have responded to the question.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1057 (Link to this contribution) First, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, that John Lyon, the existing parliamentary commissione...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1058 (Link to this contribution) There is still confusion.

Lord Higgins | 712 c1058 (Link to this contribution) Is—

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1058 (Link to this contribution) My apologies for my shorthand. In future, there will be two commissioners. There will be a person kn...

Lord Higgins | 712 c1057 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness is short-handing this too much. I think that the parliamentary commissioner is qu...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1058 (Link to this contribution) In the Second Reading debate it was probably made clear—and I beg your Lordships’ pardon if it was n...

Lord Borrie | 712 c1058 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may help. Are not some noble Lords thinking of the parliamentary commissioner for administ...

Lord Higgins | 712 c1058 (Link to this contribution) But is not the first person referred to by the noble Lord known as Commissioner for Parliamentary In...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1058-9 (Link to this contribution) Clause 1(3) states categorically: ""There is to be an officer known as the Commissioner for Parliame...

Lord Higgins | 712 c1058 (Link to this contribution) In Clause 1(3), the fact that "the Commissioner" is in brackets for purposes of ease of discussion d...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 712 c1059 (Link to this contribution) I want to be helpful. Will my noble friend ask her officials to look at the Hamilton case where, if ...

Lord King of Bridgwater | 712 c1059 (Link to this contribution) Are they on the Marshalled List?

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1059 (Link to this contribution) I will come back to the noble Lord in a minute: I do not have that information to hand.

Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 712 c1059-60 (Link to this contribution) Will the Leader of the House help me? The questions about judicial review will not go away. Does she...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1059 (Link to this contribution) They are certainly on the Marshalled List.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1060 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that is the problem that we must address today. I do not have an answer at the moment, but...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 712 c1060 (Link to this contribution) Of course I accept the noble Baroness’s assurance that she will look carefully at the first two of m...

Lord Cope of Berkeley | 712 c1130-2 (Link to this contribution) Earlier in our deliberations, I found myself moving an amendment which had the support of both Front...

Lord Strathclyde | 712 c1132 (Link to this contribution) As my noble friend Lord Cope pointed out, he and I have put down amendments which appear to oppose e...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 712 c1129 (Link to this contribution) It is my recollection that the original draft of the Bill said that the report would be laid by IPSA...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 712 c1129 (Link to this contribution) That is right. The current system—the Green Book, the MPs’ code of conduct—included guidance on fina...

Lord Strathclyde | 712 c1130 (Link to this contribution) It has been a useful debate. I wanted to probe the Government’s thinking and they have told us what ...

Lord Cope of Berkeley | 712 c1130 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 38A 38A: Clause 5, page 3, line 39, after "interests" insert "other than financial intere...

Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 712 c1129 (Link to this contribution) As the noble Lord, Lord Peston, is not in his place, I hope that after he has read Hansard tomorrow ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 712 c1128 (Link to this contribution) I know that very soon after a debate on an earlier part of the Bill, my noble friend offered to writ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 712 c1129 (Link to this contribution) I am not aware whether there is or is not. However, I am clear that this is a formal mechanism for a...

Lord Higgins | 712 c1129 (Link to this contribution) One of the problems with the Bill is that the drafting seems to be extraordinarily strange in places...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 712 c1128 (Link to this contribution) On the matter that my noble friend has just referred to, there is a lot of confusion in both Houses ...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 712 c1128 (Link to this contribution) I think there may be a clue to the answer. I have to say that the code in the other place was introd...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 712 c1128 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, but we are talking about two different codes. I s...

Lord Tyler | 712 c1127-8 (Link to this contribution) I was waiting to hear the Minister’s explanation before contributing to the debate. There is a genui...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 712 c1128 (Link to this contribution) I must be wary of anticipating how the House of Commons itself will deal with this matter. The key q...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 712 c1127 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I can display some clear thinking on this matter. The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, has ...

Lord Strathclyde | 712 c1126 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 38 38: Clause 5, page 3, line 37, at end insert "with or without amendments"

Baroness Hamwee | 712 c1111 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for explaining "successor". We were indeed seeking for there to ...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1110-1 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 36 seeks to change the timescale on which IPSA would review the MPs’ code of conduct relat...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1139-40 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is absolutely right, but the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, asked for my views about C...

Lord Higgins | 712 c1140 (Link to this contribution) Am I to understand that the noble Baroness has it in mind to make further amendments to Clause 5 or ...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1140 (Link to this contribution) I have no intention of amending Clause 5 further. I believe that it is excellent as it stands. It is...

Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 712 c1140 (Link to this contribution) I think that the Leader of the House is saying that, in thinking about Clause 5, we should think als...

Lord Strathclyde | 712 c1138-9 (Link to this contribution) I have tabled a stand-part Motion to explore the ramifications of Clause 5, which establishes a stat...

Lord Cope of Berkeley | 712 c1137 (Link to this contribution) We should not argue about the history. The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, said that it was wrong that MPs s...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 712 c1139 (Link to this contribution) I will make one small point. The code is prepared by IPSA after consultation. It must be laid before...

Lord Higgins | 712 c1139 (Link to this contribution) I was surprised by what my noble friend has just said. If I understand him correctly, he has informa...

Lord Higgins | 712 c1139 (Link to this contribution) I am now totally mystified. I thought that we were debating Clause 5.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1139 (Link to this contribution) Noble Lords have asked many interesting questions. First, I will clarify the point raised by the nob...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1136-7 (Link to this contribution) I am truly glad that there is no difference of opinion on the Benches opposite about whether ministe...

Lord Cope of Berkeley | 712 c1137 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to those who have contributed to this short debate. There is consensus that it is a go...

Lord Tyler | 712 c1134-5 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord clearly was not listening to me. I did not say that I was accusing anybody of moonlig...

Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 712 c1135-6 (Link to this contribution) I give a footnote to what my noble friend has just said. A great service has been done by tabling th...

Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 712 c1137 (Link to this contribution) I quite agree, but I was trying to say something else—not regarding the National Farmers’ Union but ...

Lord Crickhowell | 712 c1132-3 (Link to this contribution) I do not believe that my noble friends Lord Cope or the Leader of the Opposition are actually on opp...

Lord Crickhowell | 712 c1134 (Link to this contribution) I really am appalled that a former Member of the other place could use this disreputable phrase "moo...

Lord Tyler | 712 c1134 (Link to this contribution) Not at all. I am trying to illustrate that there is a genuine dilemma here. I hope that all Members ...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 712 c1134 (Link to this contribution) I cannot understand the noble Lord’s contribution, having had to listen to his contribution only six...

Lord Tyler | 712 c1133-4 (Link to this contribution) I have a non-interest to declare. As the noble Lord, Lord Cope, says, the opposition Chief Whip in t...

Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 712 c1144-5 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 49 49: Clause 6, page 5, line 12, leave out subsection (8) and insert— "( ) The procedure...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1144 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 48C 48C: Clause 6, page 5, line 10, at end insert— "(ba) the Commissioner, and" Amendmen...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1143 (Link to this contribution) Clause 6: Investigations Amendments 42A to 42C 42A: Clause 6, page 4, line 23, after "with" insert...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1143-4 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 43A 43A: Clause 6, page 4, line 33, leave out subsections (4) and (5) and insert— "(4) If...

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall | 712 c1144 (Link to this contribution) Amendments 47 and 48 are pre-empted.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1144 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 48A 48A: Clause 6, page 5, line 6, leave out "a report under subsection (4) is" and inser...

Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 712 c1143 (Link to this contribution) I remember that, once in the past, the Government published a Bill with some amendments in an inform...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1143 (Link to this contribution) That is certainly an interesting suggestion. I will take back the suggestions both from the noble Lo...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 712 c1143 (Link to this contribution) I think that there is no theoretical objection to publishing a Bill as amended in Committee up to a ...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1143 (Link to this contribution) The Government could provide an informal version known as a Keeling schedule if that would assist th...

Lord Strathclyde | 712 c1142 (Link to this contribution) It was useful to have that debate on Clause 5, although we spent a large amount of time talking abou...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1142 (Link to this contribution) The government amendment to Clause 8(3) has been tabled; it is in the Marshalled List. That is the a...

Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 712 c1142 (Link to this contribution) I share the view that the Bill is being much improved, but I think that I heard the Leader of the Ho...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 712 c1141 (Link to this contribution) This Bill is rapidly turning into a good Bill. People are not really taking stock of what is happeni...

Lord Cope of Berkeley | 712 c1141-2 (Link to this contribution) I, too, think that the Bill will be much improved as a result of the efforts of the Committee and of...

Earl Ferrers | 712 c1141 (Link to this contribution) I have a simple question for the Leader of the House. She has gone through this clause and explained...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1141 (Link to this contribution) No, I absolutely do not think that we have overreacted. We are ensuring that in future there will be...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 712 c1141 (Link to this contribution) I have not entirely followed what the Minister has said. Is she now saying that Clause 8(3) will not...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1141 (Link to this contribution) Yes, the Government are bringing forward an amendment which we will be taking on later in Committee....

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1140 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to complicate matters but if, and I repeat "if", Clause 8(2) were removed from the Bill a...

Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 712 c1153 (Link to this contribution) That does not mean that there is no problem about criminal charge in the sense of the convention. I ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 712 c1153-4 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for making that intervention. As we introduced the Bill, the IPSA’s...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 712 c1154-5 (Link to this contribution) Although the noble Lord himself, in the illuminating debate with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ma...

Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 712 c1155 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that, at this hour, a brief reply is called for. At Second Reading the noble Baroness the ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 712 c1155 (Link to this contribution) Not at all, but I refer the noble Lord to his comments to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, w...

Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 712 c1155-6 (Link to this contribution) My concern is that the Bill should leave Parliament complying with the requirements of Article 6 of ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 712 c1156 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord begs leave to withdraw the amendment, I shall not be able to respond to his commen...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 712 c1152 (Link to this contribution) I endorse the sense of urgency which my noble friend Lord Tyler has brought to this. After all, we e...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 712 c1152-3 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the noble Lord that the noble Lord, Lord Lester, has indeed brought an important matter...

Lord Tyler | 712 c1151-2 (Link to this contribution) The latter, of course. I read carefully the contribution of the chairman, a very distinguished membe...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 712 c1149-50 (Link to this contribution) I support the view put forward that it would be highly desirable for the House of Commons to conside...

Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 712 c1150 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may respond to both the noble and learned Lord and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. If we inc...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 712 c1147-9 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Lester, has raised an extremely important issue, one of the most important issu...

Lord Pannick | 712 c1149 (Link to this contribution) I support modest Amendments 51 and 64 which seek to add the word "fair". It is right that there shou...

Lord Tyler | 712 c1151 (Link to this contribution) With great trepidation, among such distinguished legal company, may I point out a practical point wh...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 712 c1151 (Link to this contribution) Can the noble Lord clarify what he has said? Does he mean that the report has been accepted by the o...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 712 c1150 (Link to this contribution) I quite see that point, but it would as a practical matter be mightily difficult for us in the time ...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 712 c1150-1 (Link to this contribution) I respectfully share the view of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern. It would high...

Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 712 c1145-7 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak also to Amendments 51, 64 and 76, which have been grouped. I move this amendment and s...

Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 712 c1156 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful. There must be adequate safeguards against abuse; that is all. There must be adeq...

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall | 712 c1157 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 65 has been pre-empted. Amendments 66 and 67 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List....

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1156-7 (Link to this contribution) Amendments 53A and 53B 53A: Clause 6, page 5, line 16, leave out from first "the" to end of line 17...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1157-8 (Link to this contribution) We have discussed in detail the amendments that the Government have proposed to the Bill, and which ...

Earl of Onslow | 712 c1093 (Link to this contribution) Although my amendment is grouped with Amendment 21, it deals with a different point. Either we can g...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 712 c1053-4 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry; everyone wants to get on. If the noble Baroness can give me that assurance, despite what...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1048-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I realise that this is an unusual procedure, but with the leave of the Committee it might ...

Lord Bridges | 712 c1093 (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Lord has made some very important points. I am not sure, strictly speaking—

Lord Bach | 712 c1067 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Lord and the noble and learned Lord, who have come riding to my resc...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 712 c1070 (Link to this contribution) I support the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf; it would be quite inappropriate ...

Lord Bach | 712 c1072-4 (Link to this contribution) There are a number of amendments to deal with in this group. The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, asked wh...

Lord Cope of Berkeley | 712 c1107 (Link to this contribution) This is a simple point. I feel sure that it was an error in the drafting. They have accidentally put...

Earl Ferrers | 712 c1101 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, does not fully realise that this will not put anyone in a strait...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 712 c1063 (Link to this contribution) I hear the concerns expressed by my noble friend, who is very wise in his counsel. However, the Gove...

Lord Bach | 712 c1067 (Link to this contribution) Which amendment to accept is a choice for Solomon. I am grateful, as always, to the noble Lord for h...

Lord Strathclyde | 712 c1126 (Link to this contribution) The amendment is pretty self-explanatory, but it is an opportunity to probe the Government’s reason ...

Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 712 c1154 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister at least accept on behalf of the Government—as the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and t...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 712 c1093 (Link to this contribution) I am assuming that the noble and learned Lord has moved the amendment.

Lord King of Bridgwater | 712 c1059 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness said that the Government would bring forward amendments to address some of the po...