Protection of Freedoms Bill. Lords committee stage first day. clauses 1 to 25, 54 to 57 agreed to. Schedules 1 and 4 agreed to as amended.
Protection of Freedoms Bill
Committee of the Whole House (HL)
and
Debate on bills on Tuesday, 29 November 2011,
in the House of Lords,
led by Baroness Royall of Blaisdon.
The answering
member was Lord Henley.
About these Parliamentary proceedings
Reference
733 c131-88, 210-32Session
2010-12Legislative stage
Committee stageChamber / Committee
House of Lords chamberRelated items
Protection of Freedoms Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 99-EN also published.
Wednesday, 12 October 2011
Bills
House of Lords
Wednesday, 12 October 2011
Bills
House of Lords
Show all related items (6)
Constitution Select Committee (HL) twentieth report on the Protection of Freedoms Bill.
Wednesday, 2 November 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Wednesday, 2 November 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Earl of Erroll | 733 c139-40 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I associate myself with the comments of my noble friend Lord Dear and the noble Lord, Lord...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 733 c145 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response and to all noble Lords who have participate...
Show all contributions (132)
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 733 c133-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as I explained, because we looked at the evidence we did indeed bring it down to six years...
Earl of Erroll | 733 c163-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this amendment probes an idea. I am afraid that it was borrowed from one proposed in anoth...
Lord Lucas | 733 c226-7 (Link to this contribution)
I shall speak also to Amendment 54. It seems to me that if we are to allow private operators the pri...
Lord Soley | 733 c144-5 (Link to this contribution)
If I might intervene, my noble friend is right. The database is holding our photographs from driving...
Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve | 733 c141 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, before we go further with the fantasy of newborn babies being separated from their mothers...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c138 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am so glad that I prompted my noble friend Lord Phillips to speak before me because he p...
Lord Henley | 733 c156-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, it seems that with this group of amendments the noble Lord first wishes to, in effect, rem...
Lord Lucas | 733 c224 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend for that lengthy and interesting explanation. I shal...
Lord Henley | 733 c168 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I start with the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, about her desire to give D...
Earl of Erroll | 733 c167-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this is quite an important principle. I notice that when it comes to cautions and repriman...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 733 c167 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I do not wish to return to our earlier discussion about the desirability of a voluntary or...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c167 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, my amendment deals with informed consent. It would provide that a person is not considered...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c168-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, that is very helpful. As the noble Earl has said, there are consequences of which not ever...
Earl of Erroll | 733 c166 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister for that reply. In fact, what she described was rather what I ended up thinking...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c167 (Link to this contribution)
18: Clause 10, page 9, line 13, at end insert—
““( ) For the purposes of this section, a person shal...
Baroness Stowell of Beeston | 733 c164-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, has explained, this proposed new clause seeks to combine a...
Lord Henley | 733 c176-8 (Link to this contribution)
24: Schedule 1, page 109, line 19, after ““sections”” insert ““22,””
25: Schedule 1, page 109, lin...
Baroness Doocey | 733 c176 (Link to this contribution)
I thank my noble friend for the clear way in which he addressed my concerns. I say to the noble and ...
Baroness Doocey | 733 c178-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the Bill will place a large administrative and financial burden on all police forces. I be...
Baroness Doocey | 733 c178 (Link to this contribution)
39: Clause 21, page 16, line 17, at end insert—
““( ) The Commissioner must make a report to the Sec...
Lord Goldsmith | 733 c172-3 (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I may make some observations on the amendment that are very much in the nature of trying to ...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 733 c176 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, forgive my intervening at this stage. I am grateful to the Minister for his response to th...
Lord Henley | 733 c173-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I do not know whether I can bring light to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, but...
Earl of Erroll | 733 c179 (Link to this contribution)
Does a case collapse just because one bit of evidence is not quite right? I cannot believe that that...
Lord Henley | 733 c179-80 (Link to this contribution)
I suppose that a case could collapse just because one bit of evidence fell apart, although in the ma...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c180 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, before my noble friend responds, perhaps I may say to the Minister that he really should n...
Baroness Berridge | 733 c170-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I would be grateful if my noble friend the Minister could confirm that the anonymising of ...
Lord Henley | 733 c170 (Link to this contribution)
I certainly cannot guarantee to do anything between Committee and Report and I doubt even necessaril...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c170 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, that is very helpful information and updating. I suppose the obvious question is whether t...
Lord Henley | 733 c169-70 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, my noble friend is again right when she says that there are some technical problems with t...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c169 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the destruction of material by way of batches, and what the material was which was to be d...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c169 (Link to this contribution)
21: Clause 13, page 10, line 10, at end insert—
““( ) Destruction of copies of section 63D material ...
Baroness Doocey | 733 c171 (Link to this contribution)
23: Schedule 1, page 102, line 23, at end insert ““and subsequently arrested for an offence directly...
Baroness Doocey | 733 c171-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in moving Amendment 23, I shall speak also to Amendment 41. Both amendments deal with the ...
Lord Henley | 733 c171 (Link to this contribution)
I will have to take advice on this but my understanding is—I will write to my noble friend if I am w...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c171 (Link to this contribution)
I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment 21 withdrawn.
Clause 13 agreed.
Clause 14 : Dest...
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 733 c183 (Link to this contribution)
42: Clause 54, page 40, line 13, at end insert—
““(2A) An offence is not committed under subsection ...
Lord Henley | 733 c183 (Link to this contribution)
I have not the first idea of the individual cost but I will take advice and write to the noble Lord....
Lord Lucas | 733 c211-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, is being optimistic in thinking that she will achieve wha...
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 733 c183-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendment 42 addresses the law of unintended consequences. The situation is similar to tha...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 733 c213-4 (Link to this contribution)
I apologise to the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, on the Front Bench, because I told her that I would...
Baroness Randerson | 733 c212-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, unlike the noble Baroness, I start from the point of view that clamping must be stopped. I...
Earl of Lytton | 733 c215-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have an interest to declare: by virtue of my profession, I am a manager of commercial pr...
Baroness Grey-Thompson | 733 c214-5 (Link to this contribution)
I want briefly to support Amendment 42. I mentioned even more briefly at Second Reading that I am pa...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 733 c183 (Link to this contribution)
What is the actual cost of taking DNA from an individual person?
Lord Rosser | 733 c217-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, our Amendment 43 in this group seeks to ban the use of fixed barriers by private parking o...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c181 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have just realised that I am about to ask my noble friend a question—my other noble frie...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c181 (Link to this contribution)
40: Clause 24, page 18, line 4, after ““rules”” insert ““and rules governing the composition of the ...
Baroness Doocey | 733 c180 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response, which goes some way to reassure me but I still have...
Lord Henley | 733 c180 (Link to this contribution)
Of course questions from my noble friend are not criticisms. I hope that I answer them as well as I ...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c182 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I would also say that it is not uncommon for there to be advertisements for applications u...
Baroness Stowell of Beeston | 733 c182 (Link to this contribution)
I just want to re-emphasise that I would be grateful to any of your Lordships who have any suggestio...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c181-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful for that. It did not occur to me to look at the Explanatory Notes. My noble ...
Baroness Stowell of Beeston | 733 c181 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for this amendment and I hope that my response will provi...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 733 c182 (Link to this contribution)
Before we agree this I wonder whether the Minister can give us advice on the costs of the collection...
Lord Henley | 733 c182 (Link to this contribution)
I gave a figure earlier from the impact assessment that the costs on the police were some £10 millio...
Lord Rosser | 733 c231 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I assume the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, will respond. However, in view of the momentous news ...
Lord Lucas | 733 c231 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, there can be no more romantic venue at which to meet one’s wife. I am very grateful for wh...
Lord Henley | 733 c231 (Link to this contribution)
48: Schedule 4, page 127, line 34, at end insert—
““( ) In sub-paragraph (2)(d) the reference to arr...
Lord Henley | 733 c231 (Link to this contribution)
50: Schedule 4, page 128, line 45, at end insert—
““( ) In sub-paragraph (2)(g) the reference to arr...
Lord Henley | 733 c232 (Link to this contribution)
52: Schedule 4, page 130, line 7, at end insert—
““( ) In sub-paragraph (2)(g) the reference to arra...
Lord Henley | 733 c232 (Link to this contribution)
56: Schedule 4, page 132, line 4, leave out ““not exceeding 6 months”” and insert ““of any duration”...
Earl Attlee | 733 c219-24 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as we have heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, her Amendment 42 seeks to introduce...
Lord Rosser | 733 c227-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we have Amendment 53 in this group. I shall attempt to be reasonably brief as many of the ...
Earl Attlee | 733 c228-30 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, all the amendments in this group seek to amend in their various ways the provisions on kee...
Lord Lucas | 733 c226 (Link to this contribution)
44: Schedule 4, page 126, line 7, leave out ““and 12”” and insert ““, 12 and 12A””
Earl Attlee | 733 c225 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Baroness gave an example of just a few parking slots in a housing estate, but does she agr...
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 733 c225-6 (Link to this contribution)
I look forward to the Minister giving money to all those people to pay for them. They are actually r...
Earl Attlee | 733 c224 (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I may quickly respond to my noble friend. As regards large establishments such as hospitals,...
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 733 c224-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for his response, and I thank the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, the nobl...
Lord Henley | 733 c144 (Link to this contribution)
I am trying to remember who it was, but I think the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, made the point that ...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 733 c144 (Link to this contribution)
I wonder if the noble Lord would answer a question that was asked of me, and which came up in discus...
Lord Henley | 733 c141-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I start by picking up on the point made by my noble friend Lady Hamwee about Amendments 1,...
Lord Henley | 733 c145 (Link to this contribution)
Sorry, but I do not accept that. I refer the noble Baroness to the comments made by the noble Lord, ...
Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve | 733 c145 (Link to this contribution)
I would like to return to my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours’s question, which is a serious one. ...
Lord Henley | 733 c145 (Link to this contribution)
As I said, my Lords, there is a balance. What the noble Lord is advocating could also lead to a grea...
Lord Macdonald of River Glaven | 733 c140-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this is a difficult and sensitive issue, and I have great sympathy with what the noble and...
Lord Henley | 733 c147-8 (Link to this contribution)
As my noble friend has explained, these amendments were tabled following receipt of a letter from th...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c147 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 3. These are among a number of probing amendments that I t...
Lord Henley | 733 c149 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, again I repeat the word ““balance””. It is a question of balance as to what is appropriate...
Earl of Erroll | 733 c148-9 (Link to this contribution)
I am quite intrigued by this. The police have a policy in some cases of arrest first and ask questio...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c149 (Link to this contribution)
4: Clause 1, page 2, line 27, leave out ““desirable”” and insert ““necessary for the prevention or d...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c149 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, like the noble Earl, I blinked at the words ““a step too far”” and I appreciate that the M...
Lord Henley | 733 c145 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I was not saying that at all, though sometimes Bills are rushed through without quite the ...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c147 (Link to this contribution)
2: Clause 1, page 2, line 7, at end insert—
““(c) any biographical information relating to the mater...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 733 c146 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the Minister.
The noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, talked about the culture o...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 733 c134 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I would like to be able to answer the noble Lord but I regret that I cannot. I will come b...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 733 c134 (Link to this contribution)
I am sorry to interrupt the noble Baroness. She mentioned 23,000 offences. Do they include minor off...
Lord Henley | 733 c133 (Link to this contribution)
Was that not part of the wash-up process, and was it not an improvement on the existing regime when ...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 733 c131-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 7 and 8 standing in my name and those of my noble friends...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 733 c131 (Link to this contribution)
1: Before Clause 1, insert the following new Clause—
““Evidence base for the destruction, retention ...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 733 c138 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness. It would dilute the stigma.
Lord Dear | 733 c139 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we have discussed the rapid advances in DNA technology, but a fact that noble Lords may wi...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c138-9 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord, Lord Soley, talked about deterrence in the context of a voluntary database. I take t...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 733 c137 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I rise with diffidence to support my Government, because I think that the issues are extre...
Lord Condon | 733 c136-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I also support Amendment 1, for the reasons set out so eloquently by the noble Baroness, L...
Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve | 733 c138 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I should like to ask the Minister whether the Government considered an alternative way of ...
Lord Soley | 733 c137-8 (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I may intervene briefly in support of this proposed new clause and to add to what my noble a...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 733 c135-6 (Link to this contribution)
I want briefly to intervene because I feel quite strongly about this subject. I am not a lawyer, but...
Lord Goldsmith | 733 c134-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I strongly support the amendment moved by my noble friend. As noble Lords will know, I hav...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 733 c160 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, perhaps I may build briefly on those comments because lurking in them was the question tha...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 733 c160 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the government amendments brought in at the Report stage of this Bill in the House of Comm...
Baroness Stowell of Beeston | 733 c159-60 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as we have already discussed, among other things Clause 3 sets out the rules governing the...
Baroness Stowell of Beeston | 733 c159 (Link to this contribution)
11: Clause 3, page 5, line 26, leave out from ““adult”””” to end of line 27 and insert ““means a per...
Lord Rosser | 733 c158-9 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister for his response. It throws into sharp contrast the fundamental difference of v...
Lord Rosser | 733 c154-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this group of amendments would remove, following a government amendment in the other place...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c154 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, one always knows about one-third of the way into a sentence that a ““but”” is coming. I an...
Lord Rosser | 733 c154 (Link to this contribution)
6: Clause 3, page 3, leave out lines 28 to 30
Baroness Stowell of Beeston | 733 c154 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend Lady Berridge for her intervention. I am pleased to ...
Baroness Stowell of Beeston | 733 c152-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Hamwee for moving her amendment. It relates to the briefing f...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 733 c152 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, for tabling this amendment, and for the ...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 733 c153-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, perhaps I might intervene briefly. The noble Lord, Lord Dear, made some effective practica...
Baroness Berridge | 733 c153 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I presume that the amendment relates to the previous paragraph in relation, "““to section ...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c151 (Link to this contribution)
5: Clause 2, page 2, line 41, at end insert—
““( ) For the purpose of this section, an investigation...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c151 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, indeed I shall do so. When the Minister said ““cost””, I wrote the word ““balance”” becaus...
Lord Dear | 733 c151-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have the greatest respect for the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, but I have to say from pr...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c151 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Clause 2(2) provides for the retention of certain material, "““until the conclusion of the...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c149-50 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 22. These amendments deal with two provisions about specul...
Lord Henley | 733 c150-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have some sympathy with what I think the noble Baroness is trying to get at with the ame...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c164 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am not sure whether I go down the route of paying the piper but the question of accounta...
Lord Henley | 733 c162 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I hope to deal with this issue relatively briefly. My noble friend has got it right when s...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c161-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 15, 16 and 17. These are identical amendments to Clauses ...
Lord Henley | 733 c162 (Link to this contribution)
It is not purely police happiness—it is also police cost. If my noble friend’s amendment were accept...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c162 (Link to this contribution)
I am not sure about their not being necessary, but I can see they may be undesirable. I shall not co...
Earl of Erroll | 733 c163 (Link to this contribution)
14: After Clause 4, insert the following new Clause—
““Privacy Commissioner
(1) The Secretary of Sta...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c162 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am being inappropriately flippant in a serious context. Perhaps I had better just beg le...
Baroness Stowell of Beeston | 733 c161 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, let me try to explain a little further. We are trying to ensure that, when we refer to ““v...
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 733 c161 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, before we go to a vote, I respectfully suggest that the noble Baroness considers withdrawi...
Baroness Stowell of Beeston | 733 c161 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Baroness. I think, on reflection, that that would be the right course. I ...
Baroness Hamwee | 733 c161 (Link to this contribution)
12: Clause 4, page 6, line 7, leave out ““indefinitely”” and insert ““for as long as is necessary fo...
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