Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill

Debate on bills and Committee of the Whole House (HC) on Monday, 1 February 2010, in the House of Commons.

Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill. Queen's recommendation signified. Money resolution (No. 2) agreed to on question. Ways and Means resolution (No. 2) agreed to on question. Programme motion (No. 5) varying order of proceedings in Committee agreed to on division (246 votes to 187). Committee stage fifth day. New clause 70, discussed with Government new clauses 71 to 84, new clause 87, and Government new schedules 6 to 9, debated and agreed to. New clauses 71 to 84 agreed to. New schedules 6 to 9 agreed to. New clause 85, discussed with Government new clause 86, new clauses 52 to 55, debated and agreed to. New clause 86 agreed to.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

505 c41-133

Session

2009-10

Show all related items (6)

Draft Constitutional Renewal Bill. Public Administration Select Committee tenth report with proceedings, evidence (HC 499-i-ii not printed separately) and appendices.
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Draft Constitutional Renewal Bill. Joint Committee on the Draft Constitutional Renewal Bill first report, in two volumes, with proceedings, evidence and appendices.
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Proceeding contributions

Lord Young of Cookham | 505 c64 (Link to this contribution) Any new code of conduct would be the property of an incoming Prime Minister, who would devise his ow...

David Heath | 505 c64 (Link to this contribution) I shall start at the point with which the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George You...

Show all contributions (151)

Lord Young of Cookham | 505 c63-4 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a forceful point. I can see no reason why there should be a disparity betwe...

Lord Young of Cookham | 505 c57-63 (Link to this contribution) The Committee is grateful to the Secretary of State for his lucid explanation of a rather complicate...

Andrew Miller | 505 c63 (Link to this contribution) Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the practice that applies to pension funds outside this pla...

Peter Bottomley | 505 c57 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller) did not read out paragraph (1)(3) of n...

Jack Straw | 505 c57 (Link to this contribution) Point taken. One of the amendments would remove the sunset clause, which I never wanted in the firs...

Lord Young of Cookham | 505 c50 (Link to this contribution) Further to the intervention from my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing, West (Peter Bottomley), wil...

Jack Straw | 505 c49-50 (Link to this contribution) The role of the parliamentary commissioner is to enforce the various codes—Standing Orders—that the ...

Jack Straw | 505 c50 (Link to this contribution) It is subject to any advice that we get from those at the Table, but the responsibilities of the Joh...

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 505 c47-8 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government new clause 71—Parliamentary sta...

Jack Straw | 505 c47 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Peter Bottomley | 505 c49 (Link to this contribution) The Justice Secretary has explained that the compliance officer will work with IPSA. Those of us who...

Richard Shepherd | 505 c52 (Link to this contribution) They are not saying that the person is guilty either.

Jack Straw | 505 c52 (Link to this contribution) Colleagues will know—it is a well-trodden path—that if someone was convicted of a serious offence, t...

Peter Bottomley | 505 c52 (Link to this contribution) No one would claim that these are easy things. It seems clear from what the Secretary of State has j...

Jack Straw | 505 c51 (Link to this contribution) I did not do badly. The right hon. Gentleman used to represent Ealing; that is the problem.

Lord Young of Cookham | 505 c51 (Link to this contribution) North-West. It was a 50:50 chance.

Jack Straw | 505 c50-1 (Link to this contribution) I will give way in one second. Various suggestions were made informally, including that we could pe...

Jack Straw | 505 c51-2 (Link to this contribution) Day by day, those responsibilities will not overlap, but there must be the overlap that I am describ...

Mark Field | 505 c51 (Link to this contribution) I am still slightly unclear about something, perhaps because I have not picked up some of the nuance...

Jack Straw | 505 c51 (Link to this contribution) I am not quite as old as the right hon. Gentleman, but I am getting on that way. The terms of new c...

Lord Young of Cookham | 505 c51 (Link to this contribution) Ealing, Acton.

Andrew Miller | 505 c56 (Link to this contribution) I accept what my right hon. Friend has said about the 1995 scheme in relation to accrued rights; tha...

Jack Straw | 505 c56 (Link to this contribution) It is not our intention to do that. I cannot be absolutely certain that the wording does not take it...

Jack Straw | 505 c56 (Link to this contribution) I cannot say precisely what discussions took place with the trustees. However, I can tell the right ...

Mark Field | 505 c53-4 (Link to this contribution) I recognise that, as the Secretary of State rightly says, all of us are busy, though I am sure that ...

Peter Bottomley | 505 c55 (Link to this contribution) This may be helpful to the Minister. New clause 73(2) and (3) deal with MPs' salaries. It is probabl...

Jack Straw | 505 c54-5 (Link to this contribution) I accept entirely the burden of what the hon. Gentleman says. The issue is how to achieve that. Let ...

Peter Bottomley | 505 c55 (Link to this contribution) Six?

Jack Straw | 505 c55 (Link to this contribution) I have been through those provisions in some detail. Indeed, I did so when they were draft provision...

Jack Straw | 505 c55 (Link to this contribution) There is some very odd numbering in new clause 73, and that is something that I had not noticed befo...

Dominic Grieve | 505 c118-9 (Link to this contribution) I have put my name to the Minister's two principal amendments—not to the consequential ones, but the...

David Howarth | 505 c119 (Link to this contribution) I am not too sure whether that point works, given that new clause 85 is a deeming clause. The person...

David Howarth | 505 c118 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to harp on about bishops to any great extent, as I did so last time we discussed the B...

Lord Wills | 505 c118 (Link to this contribution) Clearly, it is theoretically possible that there could be an enormously wealthy bishop who was escap...

Lord Wills | 505 c118 (Link to this contribution) It is also worth reminding the House that, as I am sure that the hon. Member for Cambridge (David Ho...

Dominic Grieve | 505 c117 (Link to this contribution) indicated assent.

Lord Wills | 505 c117 (Link to this contribution) Right. In that case, the position is clear; I think that the hon. and learned Gentleman is already a...

Dominic Grieve | 505 c116-7 (Link to this contribution) I think that I do: that is why I was hoping to encourage the Minister to clarify the position in the...

Lord Wills | 505 c117 (Link to this contribution) Good—I am glad that at last we have managed precisely to elucidate what the hon. and learned Gentlem...

Lord Wills | 505 c116 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman has put his name to these new clauses, and as such I would have hoped...

Lord Wills | 505 c115-6 (Link to this contribution) Welcome to the Chair, Mr. Illsley. The Government have made it clear on several occasions that they ...

Dominic Grieve | 505 c116 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is aware that we have signed up to the proposed changes, but it would be helpful to cla...

Lord Wills | 505 c116 (Link to this contribution) In general, the way in which it will work is quite clear. There will be a three-month period after R...

Dominic Grieve | 505 c116 (Link to this contribution) As matters stand, I understand that one does not even have to be a national of this country to be a ...

Jack Straw | 505 c85-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the intervention. There will not be much of a peroration. It is the Member for Bla...

Lord Wills | 505 c113 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Jack Straw | 505 c85 (Link to this contribution) That is a fair point. Another point, which I thought the hon. Gentleman was going to make, but which...

Jack Straw | 505 c83-4 (Link to this contribution) No, I have got a clue. I have got lots of clues, the first of which is that it will happen during th...

Jack Straw | 505 c83 (Link to this contribution) That will be done by order.

Shailesh Vara | 505 c83 (Link to this contribution) He has not got a clue.

Jack Straw | 505 c84 (Link to this contribution) The arrangements for members of staff will be a matter for the Parliamentary Standards Authority. I ...

Charles Walker | 505 c84 (Link to this contribution) Small businesses are allowed to claim for the cost of accountancy, and according to Sir Christopher ...

Jack Straw | 505 c83 (Link to this contribution) Ah, that saves me a letter, and I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that information. I th...

Lord Young of Cookham | 505 c83 (Link to this contribution) Can the Secretary of State tell the House when IPSA will assume responsibilities for running our pen...

Jack Straw | 505 c81-3 (Link to this contribution) I would not have been paid at all for that, but I thought that I should offer the right hon. Member ...

Mark Field | 505 c78 (Link to this contribution) Although I have a lot of sympathy with what the hon. Gentleman has to say, does he not understand th...

Nick Harvey | 505 c78-9 (Link to this contribution) I sympathise with what the hon. Gentleman is saying, but I said categorically at the outset that I a...

Charles Walker | 505 c79 (Link to this contribution) I shall be very brief. I want to start by apologising to my wife Fiona, my son Alistair, my other so...

David Winnick | 505 c81 (Link to this contribution) When I first came to the House, there was no secretarial allowance at all, and the pension for MPs h...

Jack Straw | 505 c81 (Link to this contribution) I have had the benefit of being in the Chamber for the whole debate and I do not think that there ha...

Peter Bottomley | 505 c81 (Link to this contribution) Is that the kind of advocacy for which the right hon. Gentleman would not have been paid very much i...

Charles Walker | 505 c76 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend aware that a number of colleagues on both sides of the House have ceased to claim ...

Peter Bottomley | 505 c76-7 (Link to this contribution) I am. That is a reminder that this House should not be for those who are well off and those who are ...

Nick Harvey | 505 c77-8 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr. Gale. I apologise for not being able to be here at the start of the debate because of...

David Heath | 505 c69 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who is absolutely right. I am simply saying that we should not ...

Andrew Miller | 505 c69 (Link to this contribution) I was elected to the 1992 Parliament, as was my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinla...

Peter Bottomley | 505 c75-6 (Link to this contribution) Non-taxable and non-pensionable. The idea of bringing in a receipt for every small bit of spending i...

Jack Straw | 505 c75 (Link to this contribution) Non-taxable?

Peter Bottomley | 505 c74-5 (Link to this contribution) I often agree with the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson), but I do not agree with him on a num...

Angus Robertson | 505 c73-4 (Link to this contribution) I do not plan to delay the Committee for long, but I think it is worth going through the genesis of ...

Mark Field | 505 c71-3 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young) that it ess...

Andrew Miller | 505 c70-1 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the spirit of the exchanges that have taken place. I am sure all Members will agree that i...

David Heath | 505 c69-70 (Link to this contribution) Yes, if a county court makes an order, it is payable, so it does not need a subsequent provision say...

Peter Bottomley | 505 c69 (Link to this contribution) It just means that in England and Wales and Northern Ireland, but not in Scotland, the compliance of...

David Heath | 505 c67 (Link to this contribution) It is very important that IPSA hears that. Of course, different parties in the House are treated dif...

Andrew Mackinlay | 505 c68 (Link to this contribution) I have a great deal of sympathy for the hon. Gentleman's view that we sometimes rush things in havin...

David Heath | 505 c68 (Link to this contribution) Two Members want to intervene.

David Heath | 505 c67-8 (Link to this contribution) It would indeed. This may be a particularly live issue for Members representing Scottish constituenc...

Robert Smith | 505 c67 (Link to this contribution) The provision is drawn quite widely, so there is a concern that IPSA might choose to define differen...

David Heath | 505 c68 (Link to this contribution) That may be true, but I hope the hon. Gentleman will accept that there is a problem here, particular...

Peter Bottomley | 505 c68 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman puts a delicate point, but provision is made for pay to go back to the day or day...

David Heath | 505 c68 (Link to this contribution) I, in turn, have a great deal of sympathy for that suggestion, as I believe it is probably the best ...

Jack Straw | 505 c65 (Link to this contribution) Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

David Heath | 505 c64-5 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. They arrived very late in the day, as did this Committee sitting...

Jack Straw | 505 c67 (Link to this contribution) I will not invite you to declare an interest from the Chair in this matter, Mr. Gale, although I cou...

David Heath | 505 c67 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the Lord Chancellor can enlighten me.

David Heath | 505 c65-6 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. There is a problem with whom the compliance officer will work for and the status of the offi...

David Heath | 505 c67 (Link to this contribution) I was quite sure that that was the Lord Chancellor's intention, but I do not know why that is not co...

Jack Straw | 505 c67 (Link to this contribution) No part of the new clause states that there is a first class of Member, which is Labour and Conserva...

Lord Wills | 505 c128 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. and learned Gentleman. The hon. Member for Cambridge (David Howarth) expo...

Dominic Grieve | 505 c128 (Link to this contribution) There is no need for the repetition of something that one member of my party need say only once. The...

Lord Wills | 505 c128 (Link to this contribution) I certainly agree with the hon. Gentleman's point. I am sorry that the hon. and learned Member for B...

Bob Spink | 505 c128 (Link to this contribution) I thank those on the Front Benches for their support, but has the Minister noticed that, although th...

Lord Wills | 505 c129 (Link to this contribution) I am not quite sure what the hon. Gentleman's problem is with being forced to pay tax. I think we co...

David Howarth | 505 c128 (Link to this contribution) That point is fine, but my point was that the way the Minister is doing things, the individuals conc...

Lord Wills | 505 c128 (Link to this contribution) I will give way, although I suspect that we shall hear a repetition of the hon. Gentleman's previous...

David Drew | 505 c129 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend give way?

Dominic Grieve | 505 c122 (Link to this contribution) Dare I say that the hon. Gentleman seems to be following a rather esoteric path? The reasons why we ...

David Howarth | 505 c122 (Link to this contribution) I do not accept the premise of the hon. Gentleman's argument, because I do not know how we would mea...

Philip Davies | 505 c122 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman's argument falls down in relation to the European Union, because 80 per cent. of ...

David Howarth | 505 c120-2 (Link to this contribution) I, too, welcome the Government's movement on the subject and support the proposal. However, I fear t...

Dominic Grieve | 505 c120 (Link to this contribution) It may be founded or unfounded. The hon. Gentleman interrupts from a sedentary position, and I simpl...

David Winnick | 505 c120 (Link to this contribution) Or founded.

Dominic Grieve | 505 c119-20 (Link to this contribution) I understand the hon. Gentleman's point. My understanding from raising the matter with the Governmen...

David Howarth | 505 c123 (Link to this contribution) I remind the hon. Gentleman that we are talking about people in the legislature—Members of Parliamen...

Mike Penning | 505 c122-3 (Link to this contribution) I am slightly curious, because I know the hon. Gentleman is a good European. Surely the concept of t...

David Howarth | 505 c122 (Link to this contribution) I do not think the Liberal Democrats have ever said it was a good idea for someone who had no connec...

Lord Wills | 505 c127-8 (Link to this contribution) That was an interesting debate. Although it is sometimes hard to discern it, I believe that there is...

Bob Spink | 505 c125 (Link to this contribution) Does that breach of trust by Lord Laidlaw give the hon. Gentleman any confidence in the promise made...

Gordon Prentice | 505 c124-5 (Link to this contribution) In the real world, when these changes take effect really matters. I had a private Member's Bill more...

Richard Taylor | 505 c127 (Link to this contribution) It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Pendle (Mr. Prentice). If he pushes his new cla...

Gordon Prentice | 505 c125-6 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to get sucked into that issue—[Hon. Members: "Go on!"] No, I have read all the stuff i...

David Howarth | 505 c123 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point and simply add this: the fact that people were seeking to ...

Bob Spink | 505 c123 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will be delighted to hear that I want to move him away from Europe—I am sure you ...

Gordon Prentice | 505 c123-4 (Link to this contribution) I just want to say a few words to start with for my many supporters out there. I fear that I have be...

Richard Taylor | 505 c127 (Link to this contribution) I will refer to the hon. Member as my hon. Friend, because he has just made the point that I was abo...

Kelvin Hopkins | 505 c127 (Link to this contribution) I thought that the 1832 Reform Act had got rid of the idea that votes could be bought. Perhaps they ...

Speaker | 505 c133 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree. That is precisely the point I have just made to the hon. Member for Castle Point (...

Speaker | 505 c133 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman knows that I cannot deal with that matter now, and in any case we have not yet re...

Lord McLoughlin | 505 c133 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Will you confirm that if the hon. Gentleman were...

David Drew | 505 c132 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The debate that we have just had finished very early. Some ...

Speaker | 505 c131 (Link to this contribution) I imagine that Hansard will treat the last five minutes as an informal suspension.

David Heath | 505 c132 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. One of the problems that we experienced when the...

Speaker | 505 c132 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to say that those events occurred in Committee, and I am not able to comment on what happ...

John McDonnell | 505 c132 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I realise that you cannot comment now on procedu...

Speaker | 505 c132 (Link to this contribution) I entirely understand the point that the hon. Gentleman has made, which is firmly on the record, but...

Bob Spink | 505 c132 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. As a result of the procedural mix-up tonight, we have lost ...

Speaker | 505 c132 (Link to this contribution) I can say to the hon. Gentleman that Mr. Speaker always takes a very close interest in all the busin...

Kelvin Hopkins | 505 c129 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend said a while ago that no one wants to pay more tax. I have argued with the Libe...

Lord Wills | 505 c129-30 (Link to this contribution) That makes the point that nobody wants to pay tax so that billionaires can avoid paying it. I hope t...

David Heath | 505 c130 (Link to this contribution) It is retrospectivity that I wish to ask the Minister a question about. I can see that there should ...

Lord Wills | 505 c130 (Link to this contribution) I am not going to comment on one or two individual cases, because I am not familiar with all the det...

Lord Wills | 505 c129 (Link to this contribution) I will in a moment, but first I wish the hon. Member for Cambridge to understand that the important ...

David Drew | 505 c129 (Link to this contribution) Is not the answer to do what they do in the States? Every member of the legislature has to produce a...

Lord Wills | 505 c129 (Link to this contribution) Tempted as I am to enter into a new discussion with my hon. Friend, which I am sure would be illumin...

Speaker | 505 c131 (Link to this contribution) Order. I will deal with the hon. Gentleman's point of order in a moment.

David Drew | 505 c131 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

Lord Robathan | 505 c131 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. May I ask how Hansard will record the last five minutes?

Lord Young of Cookham | 505 c85 (Link to this contribution) I sense a peroration. The Secretary of State will recognise that a number of questions have been ask...

Robert Smith | 505 c64 (Link to this contribution) Is not a consequence of the Government's dithering over the need to introduce statutory provisions t...

Lord Wills | 505 c124 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has fought a successful campaign and deserves credit for his diligence and persistenc...

Jack Straw | 505 c52-3 (Link to this contribution) No, they are saying that the person is not guilty, according to the criminal law. As happens very of...

Lord Young of Cookham | 505 c55 (Link to this contribution) Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the Committee what discussions took place with the trustees of the...

Charles Walker | 505 c83 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State is now paying 12 per cent., but in addition, for the next three months, he wi...

Jack Straw | 505 c48-9 (Link to this contribution) There are a lot of new clauses and new schedules in this group, but on this occasion I have a better...

Angus Robertson | 505 c64 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give the House some clarification on that point? The Government appear...

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 505 c113-5 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government new clause 86—Tax status of me...

Peter Bottomley | 505 c84 (Link to this contribution) I will not return to that point now. Will the Secretary of State kindly say what will be the arrange...

Jack Straw | 505 c79-80 (Link to this contribution) May I thank all right hon. and hon. Members who have contributed to this important debate. I hope th...