UK Parliament / Open data

Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill

Debate on bills and Committee of the Whole House (HC) on Tuesday, 26 January 2010, in the House of Commons.
Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill. Programme motion (No. 4) varying proceedings in Committee ordered by Programme motion (No. 3).Agreed to on division (264 votes to 212). Committee stage fourth day. Clause 29 agreed to. Clause 30, discussed with new clauses 25 and 47, agreed to. Clauses 31 to 34 agreed to. Schedule 4 agreed to.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

504 c685-778 

Session

2009-10

Department

Ministry of Justice

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

Programme motions
New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Commons chamber

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Draft Constitutional Renewal Bill. Government response to the Joint Committee on the Draft Constitutional Renewal Bill first report of session 2007-08 (HC 551 2007-08).
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Legislative scrutiny: Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill; Video Recordings Bill. Human Rights Joint Select Committee fourth report with formal minutes and evidence.
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Show all related items (6)

Proceeding contributions

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c689 (Link to this contribution) Order. I was indulgent to the Secretary of State because I thought the matter had been dealt with pr...
Jack Straw | 504 c690 (Link to this contribution) Allow me to continue before I get on to the main—[Interruption.] No. I wish to correct the noble Lo...

Show all contributions (279)
Jack Straw | 504 c691 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that even Lord Irvine would claim authorship of the arrangement, which was part of a ...
Jack Straw | 504 c692 (Link to this contribution) No. I understand why my words may have been interpreted in that way, but for the avoidance of doubt ...
David Winnick | 504 c692 (Link to this contribution) Ending the membership of 90 per cent. of hereditary peers in the House of Lords is a remarkable achi...
Jack Straw | 504 c692-3 (Link to this contribution) I agree, and I thank my hon. Friend for his compliments, because he was a Member between 1966 and 19...
Lord Deben | 504 c693 (Link to this contribution) Does not this underline the fact that if we are to have reform, we should have wholesale reform, whi...
John Redwood | 504 c694 (Link to this contribution) We have had 12 years of a Labour Government with a big majority, but there has been no phase 2, beca...
Jack Straw | 504 c694 (Link to this contribution) The difference is that life peers are at least appointed on their own merit. Since the hon. Gentlema...
Jack Straw | 504 c696 (Link to this contribution) First, that might have been a reasonable point if we were proposing to abolish all 90 hereditaries w...
Jack Straw | 504 c695 (Link to this contribution) I give way to the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Field), as I said I would, a...
Mark Field | 504 c695-6 (Link to this contribution) The Lord Chancellor wishes to belittle the Earl of Stair and the Earl of Glasgow, but doubtless if t...
Jack Straw | 504 c696 (Link to this contribution) I will give way in one second, but I want to make progress. The first point raised by the hon. Memb...
Jack Straw | 504 c696 (Link to this contribution) That is a kind of Trotskyist argument, if I may say so. The Trotskyists used to argue that running s...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c695 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Jack Straw | 504 c695 (Link to this contribution) No; the hon. and learned Gentleman asked me a question, and I am giving him an answer. Moreover, it...
Edward Leigh | 504 c701 (Link to this contribution) I put it to the Lord Chancellor that the whole purpose of this risible arrangement was to force refo...
Lord Wills | 504 c701 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman's position on these matters is usually so clear, but I would be grate...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c701 (Link to this contribution) The Leader of the Opposition has indicated that he supports a largely elected second Chamber, and wi...
Jack Straw | 504 c700 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady knows very well that for six and a half of those 11 years, there was no agreement eith...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c700 (Link to this contribution) In just a moment. However, the Government have at no stage said that they are about to implement a ...
Hugh Bayley | 504 c700 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman is arguing that clause 29 should not stand part of the Bill because t...
Jack Straw | 504 c697-8 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman knows that we want to move to a wholly or mainly elected Chamber, and that will b...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c704 (Link to this contribution) It is most ingenious argument but is it not rather like the Government saying in respect of the Lisb...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c703 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my right hon. and learned Friend. What he says has been apparent as the Bill has procee...
Tony Wright | 504 c704-5 (Link to this contribution) As I have tried to explain, as someone who was reasonably close to the issue, stage 2 had an amorpho...
David Howarth | 504 c705 (Link to this contribution) That "immediately" was said in 1911. The hon. Gentleman says that they did not mean it. The Liberals...
John Redwood | 504 c702 (Link to this contribution) Did my hon. and learned Friend know that, when I asked the Lord Chancellor to give us a timetable fo...
Hugh Bayley | 504 c702 (Link to this contribution) In answer to the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh), the hon. and learned Gentleman said that ...
Jack Straw | 504 c702 (Link to this contribution) May I follow up the question from my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase? Is it correct that th...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c702 (Link to this contribution) The answer to the hon. Gentleman's question is no; I shall do no such thing. I have told him and the...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c702 (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend talked about gimmickry. Does he agree that the chances of the Bill becomi...
Edward Leigh | 504 c707 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is claiming great purity for not being part of this shoddy deal. Of course, when ...
Andrew Mackinlay | 504 c710 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I acknowledge that, but he could not have gone into the House of Lords as the Earl of Longford....
Andrew Mackinlay | 504 c709 (Link to this contribution) I know what the noble viscount says, but I do not agree with him. I certainly want to see this Parli...
Jack Straw | 504 c705 (Link to this contribution) The Conservative party must speak for itself, although it is having great difficulty on this matter,...
David Howarth | 504 c705 (Link to this contribution) I suspect that the factions on women having the vote and on going further on House of Lords reform m...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c706 (Link to this contribution) I think that the hon. Gentleman would agree that even among those of us who believe in a wholly or l...
David Howarth | 504 c706 (Link to this contribution) We were happy to take part in those discussions, but we were frustrated all the way through that one...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c707 (Link to this contribution) Order. The debate is getting ever wider. It is a high-quality debate, because there are right hon. a...
David Howarth | 504 c706 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. and learned Gentleman is right that there is that difference of opinion, but it seems...
Lord Wills | 504 c706-7 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that at the height of the second world war, the foundations of the wel...
David Howarth | 504 c706 (Link to this contribution) The trouble with that argument is that it assumes that economic management is a matter of legislatio...
Andrew Mackinlay | 504 c710 (Link to this contribution) You have been most patient, Sir Alan. The Conservative party is embarrassed as there are an awful l...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c712 (Link to this contribution) I was not trying to attribute to the hon. Gentleman a sentiment that undertakings should not be hono...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c711 (Link to this contribution) No, not just on that. My position has always been to support an elected or wholly elected second Ch...
Andrew Mackinlay | 504 c710 (Link to this contribution) You will go a long way in my Government.
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c710-1 (Link to this contribution) Yes, indeed. I once again declare my interest: I have a contingent interest in the matter. I shall...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c712 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman was present for the indicative votes in this House, so he can see for himself how...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c713 (Link to this contribution) From reading the Government's proposals, which we are debating in Committee of the whole House, not ...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c714 (Link to this contribution) If one is content with the powers that currently rest in the second Chamber, there is a lot to be sa...
Edward Leigh | 504 c714 (Link to this contribution) Accepted—but I am entirely content with the powers that the second Chamber has at present. We all kn...
Jack Straw | 504 c715 (Link to this contribution) The difference is that I do not sit in this House because I am the 14th generation after the first M...
Edward Leigh | 504 c714-5 (Link to this contribution) Let me finish this point and then the right hon. Gentleman can come back with some bon mot to crush ...
Edward Leigh | 504 c716 (Link to this contribution) That must be right. I defend the current arrangement as something that, whatever I say, will probabl...
Jack Straw | 504 c715 (Link to this contribution) Yes, but that was different. The hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh) suggested that I was rude...
David Winnick | 504 c717-8 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry I was called away earlier and so was absent from the Chamber, Mrs. Heal. The hon. Member...
Edward Leigh | 504 c716-7 (Link to this contribution) We all know that the House of Lords has changed dramatically in the past 12 years in terms of bringi...
Mark Field | 504 c718-9 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate that the Lord Chancellor's memory may be failing him as to the events of 2002 and 2003—...
Mark Field | 504 c719 (Link to this contribution) The fact is that we have known for almost three years that the settled will of this House has been f...
Mark Field | 504 c719-20 (Link to this contribution) Again, I have to say that that is far too little, far too late. I would understand that argument rat...
Greg Knight | 504 c720 (Link to this contribution) I agree with much of what my hon. Friend says, but does he intend to vote against clause stand part ...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 504 c742 (Link to this contribution) We have known for a very long time that this part of the Bill would be debated in the Chamber today,...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c743 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister understand that what he is saying is slightly different in its general tone from t...
Lord Tyrie | 504 c743-4 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the Minister's generous words at the end of his speech, but less grateful for the ...
Lord Wills | 504 c744 (Link to this contribution) First, I said that the foundations of the NHS were laid during the second world war. I think the hon...
Lord Wills | 504 c740-1 (Link to this contribution) I say this with genuine regret, but I am afraid that I am going to break the consensus and tell the ...
Fiona Mactaggart | 504 c748 (Link to this contribution) Can I commend the fact that, in this clause, there is no possibility for removing people because of ...
Fiona Mactaggart | 504 c748 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is right that I raised that issue in an out-of-order way earlier in today's proceedings...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c748 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Lady, and perhaps I should have intervened on the Minister e...
Mark Harper | 504 c748 (Link to this contribution) I notice, having looked at the reasons for removing someone from the House of Lords, that there is n...
Lord Wills | 504 c748 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that issue, which my hon. Friend the Member for...
Lord Tyrie | 504 c744 (Link to this contribution) We have made some progress. Eventually, perhaps, we will be able to move further in that direction a...
Mark Harper | 504 c736 (Link to this contribution) To pick up on my right hon. and learned Friend's point about GOATs, if someone is appointed to the o...
Tony Wright | 504 c734 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady just said in closing that she would always support measures that strengthen democracy....
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c734 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Lady is very experienced, so she will be aware that her interventions should be brie...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 504 c734 (Link to this contribution) The two acts—strengthening democracy and voting as we have just done—are entirely correct and compat...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c740 (Link to this contribution) Would my hon. Friend encourage our Front-Bench team to make it plain to Government Front Benchers in...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c739 (Link to this contribution) I understand the hon. Gentleman's point. May I put this slightly different question to him? Given wh...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c738 (Link to this contribution) The truth is that the less the House of Commons scrutinises legislation, the greater the burden on t...
Mark Field | 504 c720-1 (Link to this contribution) I shall vote with my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield because the system is an im...
Lord Tyrie | 504 c723 (Link to this contribution) First, I think that it is extremely unlikely that this Bill, and certainly this clause, will end up ...
Richard Shepherd | 504 c721-2 (Link to this contribution) It is extraordinary that English gentlemen in revolt against the Crown two centuries ago could form ...
John Hayes | 504 c724 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way on that basis. He always dances elegantly between rea...
Lord Tyrie | 504 c724 (Link to this contribution) I had the impression from that intervention that my hon. Friend thinks, if one is exercising reason,...
Jack Straw | 504 c725-7 (Link to this contribution) With the permission of the Committee, I would like briefly to respond to part of this debate. I comm...
Lord Tyrie | 504 c724-5 (Link to this contribution) I am not at all keen to pursue that argument, but if I may be permitted a one-sentence reply, I do n...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c731 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Jack Straw | 504 c727 (Link to this contribution) No, that was not the point that I was about to make. I was going to say that we should not make the...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 504 c733 (Link to this contribution) It was interesting to hear the reasons given by my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr. Tyrie)...
David Howarth | 504 c777 (Link to this contribution) I accept that point, but there is a logical connection between our position on this issue and our po...
David Howarth | 504 c761 (Link to this contribution) That, of course, is another reason why the House of Lords is a splendid place, and its virtues shoul...
David Howarth | 504 c761 (Link to this contribution) Well, "young" is a relative term. The average age in the House of Lords is 68. We do not want the H...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c763 (Link to this contribution) Indeed it can, which is why my right hon. and learned Friend's amendment would be adequate. For exac...
Lord Wills | 504 c765 (Link to this contribution) I was coming to just that point. I have heard no good reason as to why Members of the other place sh...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c765 (Link to this contribution) That guarantee does not seem to amount to very much. Does the Minister not see that the Bill contain...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c766 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister understand that we cannot accept that guarantee? Consider a person in the other pl...
Colin Breed | 504 c766 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister not see that, when it comes to many other aspects of this place, and in other field...
Lord Wills | 504 c766 (Link to this contribution) Well, I have much greater faith in the British voter than any of the Conservative Members present.
Lord Wills | 504 c770 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely sorry to hear the hon. and learned Gentleman say that, because the clause will provid...
Lord Wills | 504 c766 (Link to this contribution) I agree; no one wants that, nor is there any realistic risk of that happening. For those reasons, I ...
Lord Wills | 504 c770-1 (Link to this contribution) We have indeed, which is why I said that my remarks will be brief. I say this in the hope that Conse...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 504 c775 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has explained very well why it is necessary to have clause 33, and I do not disagree wi...
Lord Wills | 504 c774-5 (Link to this contribution) The clause allows former Members of the House of Lords who have been removed under the provisions of...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 504 c775 (Link to this contribution) As a matter of debate, does the hon. Gentleman agree that in fact, there is an anomaly? I appreciate...
David Howarth | 504 c776 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 26, page 17, line 36, leave out subsection (2). The amendment is about bish...
Tony Wright | 504 c775-6 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady got herself into some trouble on voting to continue the hereditary peerage, but this i...
David Howarth | 504 c776 (Link to this contribution) No, if the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, because I want the Minister to have time to reply. If bi...
Lord Wills | 504 c776-7 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman asks why the bishops should be treated differently. The reason is simple: they ar...
David Heath | 504 c751 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Sir Michael. Can I be clear about this? We may have agreed to deal with clauses...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c751 (Link to this contribution) I think that there are limits as to how much we can reorganise the agreed programme. The hon. Gentle...
Lord Wills | 504 c756-7 (Link to this contribution) There is a broad measure of agreement on these provisions, but I shall briefly address the points th...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c752 (Link to this contribution) There is something troubling me—it is a small point. I can see that if a Member of the other place b...
Lord Wills | 504 c752-4 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for that intervention. He makes an important p...
David Heath | 504 c759 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. and learned Gentleman may like to know that in the cross-party discussions on the fut...
Peter Bottomley | 504 c758 (Link to this contribution) May I add a word, Sir Michael? It might be useful if the other place could consider adding the words...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c758 (Link to this contribution) After reflection, it has been thought that amendment 94 should join the next group of amendments.
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c758 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c758-9 (Link to this contribution) Amendments 60 to 66 originally stood in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for South Staffordshir...
Jack Straw | 504 c689 (Link to this contribution) If I may, I will leave it there because—
David Heath | 504 c689 (Link to this contribution) You said you wanted to debate it!
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c690 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the Chairman of the Procedure Committee will take note of this exchange.
Jack Straw | 504 c690 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Sir Alan. As I have said, the clause will end by-elections for hereditary peers. As exist...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c690 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Dominic Grieve | 504 c690-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way. He may agree with me that whatever Lord Stee...
Jack Straw | 504 c689 (Link to this contribution) This provision will remove by-elections for hereditary peers from the current arrangements for membe...
Edward Leigh | 504 c691 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State has described the arrangement as utterly risible. Surely the whole point of c...
Lord Tyrie | 504 c691 (Link to this contribution) A moment ago the Secretary of State described the by-elections arrangement as absurd. Does he not ha...
Jack Straw | 504 c691 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I can convince the hon. and learned Gentleman why. We are not proposing in the Bill to e...
Jack Straw | 504 c691-2 (Link to this contribution) So that we understand what the Conservative party is seeking to defend, it is seeking to defend by-e...
Lembit Opik | 504 c692 (Link to this contribution) I am very interested in what the right hon. Gentleman has just said. I understand that he has to tre...
Jack Straw | 504 c693 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to the two right hon. Gentlemen, but I want to make some progress before I do so—if...
Jack Straw | 504 c693 (Link to this contribution) No, that was not the point of it—the point was that it was necessary to get this through with some d...
Jack Straw | 504 c693-4 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but it is not party politically driven. I am astonished that the Conservatives are appar...
Jack Straw | 504 c694 (Link to this contribution) My belief is that there will be a phase 2 if we are re-elected at the next election, and there ought...
Richard Shepherd | 504 c694 (Link to this contribution) Some of us take a slightly different view. The Secretary of State has said that it was absolutely ab...
Jack Straw | 504 c696 (Link to this contribution) Of course I am going to give way—I always give way to the right hon. and learned Gentleman—but I jus...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c696 (Link to this contribution) Will the Justice Secretary give way?
Jack Straw | 504 c695 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, I do not accept that for a moment. We can argue about how long the transitional period s...
Jack Straw | 504 c694 (Link to this contribution) That is not my objection in the least, and I am glad that they are Scotsmen. My objection is because...
Jack Straw | 504 c695 (Link to this contribution) I want to make some progress, but I will give way to the two hon. Members who are standing, beginnin...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c695 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State asked a moment ago, rhetorically, whether we really object to this measure. H...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c700-1 (Link to this contribution) If I may say so, I am not quite sure what proposals I am supposed to give an enthusiastic welcome to...
Jack Straw | 504 c700 (Link to this contribution) I forgive him, but the hon. and learned Gentleman was evidently not listening to what I was saying. ...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c700 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition has said repeatedly that the Conservative party's ...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c698-700 (Link to this contribution) Irish peers, too. I suspect that that is where Lord Irvine got his idea from, and doubtless Lord Cra...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c698 (Link to this contribution) There is one thing on which I have no difficulty agreeing with the Secretary of State, and that is t...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c698 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. and learned Friend is correct, because the derivation of the idea is almost certainly ...
Jack Straw | 504 c696-7 (Link to this contribution) I have already given way to the hon. and learned Gentleman and he can make his own points in his own...
Pete Wishart | 504 c697 (Link to this contribution) I cannot believe what I am hearing. The logic of what the Secretary of State says is that we should ...
Tony Wright | 504 c703-4 (Link to this contribution) I have just two points to make. The references to Lord Irvine give me a certain nostalgic pleasure, ...
David Howarth | 504 c705 (Link to this contribution) I fear that there might be something in what the hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) just sai...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c704 (Link to this contribution) Is not it even more of a nonsense? The only element of the stage 2 that can be identified is the ren...
Tony Wright | 504 c704 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that but I will resist the temptation to have the Lisbon treaty argument all over ...
Mark Field | 504 c705 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman may recall that, given that this was Asquith's Government, the Cabinet at the tim...
Tony Wright | 504 c701 (Link to this contribution) I do not feel that we have quite got to the bottom of the Opposition's position. When the Leader of ...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c701 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that I cannot confirm anything of the kind to my hon. Friend. I acknowledge that there i...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c701-2 (Link to this contribution) I think that I have made the position extremely plain. The plain words of the Leader of the Oppositi...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c702 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I did know that. For those reasons, the Government appear to be trying to find a gimmick with w...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c702 (Link to this contribution) I was not present at the meeting. [Interruption.] I might add that I would be very surprised if the ...
Andrew Mackinlay | 504 c708-9 (Link to this contribution) I can only speak for myself, but one of the paradoxes is that Viscount Cranborne and one or two othe...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c708 (Link to this contribution) I have considerable sympathy with that view. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman is bound by anyt...
Andrew Mackinlay | 504 c708 (Link to this contribution) I take notice of your earlier injunction, Sir Alan, to focus on the clause, but, like most people he...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c710 (Link to this contribution) Order. May I say to the hon. Gentleman that perhaps that composite picture might now be considered c...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c709 (Link to this contribution) On a point of detail, Lord Packenham was made a life peer before he became an hereditary.
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c709 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, and I agree with my hon. and learned Friend the ...
David Howarth | 504 c707 (Link to this contribution) Thank you for that encouragement, Sir Alan. I will not go into any detail in my response to the Mini...
Lord Tyrie | 504 c706 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman knows that I am one of the most committed supporters of a democratic second Chamb...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c710 (Link to this contribution) I begin by saying what a pleasure it is to follow the hon. Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay). M...
Hugh Bayley | 504 c712 (Link to this contribution) I feel like an innocent abroad, straying into a debate on constitutional reform, but I have done so ...
David Howarth | 504 c712 (Link to this contribution) I was not implying that what was said to the House should not be binding and honoured. I was simply ...
Hugh Bayley | 504 c712-3 (Link to this contribution) The puzzle, then, is why the hon. and learned Gentleman has made his argument to our House today. If...
Edward Leigh | 504 c714 (Link to this contribution) During this debate people have been quite disrespectful about Lord Irvine. However, who knows what w...
David Heath | 504 c713 (Link to this contribution) Throughout this debate we have been considering the solemn undertaking, to which we were not party, ...
Hugh Bayley | 504 c713 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman puts the point succinctly. In one quotation that was read out to the Committee th...
Richard Shepherd | 504 c713 (Link to this contribution) I respect the hon. Gentleman's urgent wish for radical reform, and I am on board with that, but no o...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c715 (Link to this contribution) You sit here because you were Barbara Castle's private secretary!
Gerald Howarth | 504 c716 (Link to this contribution) I am indeed entirely with my hon. Friend. The House needs to bear in mind the fact that so long as t...
Edward Leigh | 504 c715-6 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State was mocking the process because there may be 30 candidates and only 40 electo...
Hugh Bayley | 504 c716 (Link to this contribution) I am sure the hon. Gentleman is wholly and utterly opposed to this House adopting electoral arrangem...
Edward Leigh | 504 c716 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend shakes his head, but I know for a fact that many people trooped through the Lobby to ...
Andrew Mackinlay | 504 c719 (Link to this contribution) I am truly bewildered by what the hon. Gentleman has said. What incentive will there be for a Conser...
Jack Straw | 504 c719 (Link to this contribution) It is because it has been necessary to translate that decision—the first ever such decision—into leg...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c683 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. This is about the formal moving of the programme motion. Our under...
Lord Deben | 504 c684 (Link to this contribution) Yes, Mr. Speaker, it is a wider point of order. The problem is that many Members of the House find t...
Lord Wills | 504 c741-2 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman looks at his history books, I think that he will find that there was not a con...
Lord Wills | 504 c742-3 (Link to this contribution) I think that the hon. Lady is being slightly disingenuous. The Government's broad intention has been...
Lord Wills | 504 c743 (Link to this contribution) I completely understand what the right hon. and learned Gentleman is saying, but he is an extremely ...
Mark Field | 504 c740 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I would join my right hon. and learned Friend in trying to make that plain. I hope that the Mi...
Mark Field | 504 c741 (Link to this contribution) The Minister will accept that the Butler Education Act of 1944 and the Beveridge reforms were based ...
Lord Wills | 504 c748-50 (Link to this contribution) I have noted those comments, and I am sure that the Committee has noted this exchange. If I may, I s...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c750 (Link to this contribution) Order. For clarification, is the Minister now starting to deal with clause 31, about expulsion and s...
Lord Wills | 504 c747 (Link to this contribution) Clause 30 provides that a person who is an accepted hereditary peer or life peer will be removed fro...
David Heath | 504 c734 (Link to this contribution) It is a brilliantly ineffective reforming Chamber, but it is a brilliantly effective revising Chambe...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c735-6 (Link to this contribution) May I join the consensus? It is rather cheering that so far, there has been total consensus of view ...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c736-7 (Link to this contribution) That is a very serious point that I have considered. Probably, one cannot be doctrinaire about it. I...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 504 c734 (Link to this contribution) I do not disagree with the hon. Gentleman, because the Lords is more of a revising Chamber than a re...
Fiona Mactaggart | 504 c737 (Link to this contribution) At the risk of making this all fuzzy and warm, I, too, welcome the proposals set out by the hon. Mem...
Fiona Mactaggart | 504 c737 (Link to this contribution) I stand corrected. I hope that this is a matter we can address very quickly, and I shall stop talkin...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c737 (Link to this contribution) Order. I ask the hon. Lady to recall that that subject would come under a clause 30 stand part debat...
Mark Field | 504 c739-40 (Link to this contribution) I want briefly to contribute to the debate. I agree very much with the sentiments expressed by the h...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c739 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am afraid that that question, interesting as it might be, is not relevant to the amendment ...
David Heath | 504 c738-9 (Link to this contribution) Precisely so. It irritates me enormously when someone has the perks and honours associated with memb...
David Heath | 504 c737-8 (Link to this contribution) I forbore to stand to catch your eye earlier, Mrs. Heal, because I wanted to listen to the hon. Memb...
Lord Tyrie | 504 c723 (Link to this contribution) That is a little tough on the life peerage. I do not carry any cards for the life peers, but one can...
Mark Field | 504 c723 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend not recognise that the credibility to which he refers applies equally to all the...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c724 (Link to this contribution) Order. I do hope that the hon. Gentleman is not tempted to stray down that path.
Jack Straw | 504 c727 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, and it was of major importance. The House of Lords Act 1999 has changed the composition of t...
Lord Tyrie | 504 c731 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 92, page 15, line 32, at end insert
Robert Smith | 504 c727 (Link to this contribution) Is the Secretary of State saying that, when the history books are written, clause 29 will be a shini...
Lord Tyrie | 504 c731-3 (Link to this contribution) This is a relatively modest proposal that I worked up last year with my right hon. Friend the Member...
Lord Wills | 504 c777-8 (Link to this contribution) This clause deals with supplementary matters relating to this part of the Bill. Clause 34(1) has the...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c763 (Link to this contribution) That is a possibility. Queen Anne's Gate also springs to mind. I am afraid that I cannot remember th...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c762-3 (Link to this contribution) It has been a central feature of membership of the House of Lords in recent years that it carries wi...
Peter Bottomley | 504 c761-2 (Link to this contribution) I suppose that I ought to declare that my wife sits in the House of Lords, although my remarks are n...
Lord Wills | 504 c763-4 (Link to this contribution) We have had an interesting debate and it will not surprise hon. Members to hear me say that we will ...
Lord Wills | 504 c765 (Link to this contribution) I can assure the hon. Gentleman that, although I will not be standing for election again and in a fe...
David Heath | 504 c765 (Link to this contribution) I would like the Minister to explain one simple fact. The argument that he is putting forward is the...
Lord Wills | 504 c764 (Link to this contribution) It is a difference and I am grateful for the elucidation but I do not accept that it diminishes the ...
Peter Bottomley | 504 c764 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is taking my argument down a direction that I had not intended; he is right to do so. P...
Lord Wills | 504 c764-5 (Link to this contribution) Most grateful I am too. The fundamental guarantee is the British electorate. [Interruption.] I do no...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c765 (Link to this contribution) In France, it is rather normal to go from the National Assembly to the Senate and back again; it is ...
Lord Wills | 504 c765-6 (Link to this contribution) I have been a Front Bencher for some considerable time, and I have heard the hon. and learned Gentle...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c766 (Link to this contribution) I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Amendment proposed: ...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c770 (Link to this contribution) Order. Of course the Minister must say whatever he wants to say, but we have already dipped into the...
Tony Wright | 504 c775 (Link to this contribution) If ever there were a demonstration of the need to go further than the clauses in the Bill, it is cla...
Edward Leigh | 504 c776 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
David Howarth | 504 c777 (Link to this contribution) That was a fascinating defence, but I am not sure that I was convinced by it. The essence of the arg...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c777 (Link to this contribution) It may be an anomaly, but the Church of England remains established. If the Church became disestabli...
Lord Wills | 504 c752 (Link to this contribution) Okay, then, I shall do exactly that. I now turn to clause 31. This provides a power for the House o...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c751-2 (Link to this contribution) I think that given the path that we have chosen to follow, it would be a good idea if the Minister d...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c750 (Link to this contribution) Is the House agreeable that we should deal with clause 30, which we are debating, along with schedul...
Lord Wills | 504 c750-1 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Sir Michael. I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for that suggestion, w...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c750 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Sir Michael. I intimated to Mrs. Heal that I would like to speak on a clause 31...
David Heath | 504 c757 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate that disproportionality of sentence would not be caught, and it is right that the House...
Lord Wills | 504 c757 (Link to this contribution) Our view is that that is for the other place to decide. I am sure that Members there will read the r...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 504 c756 (Link to this contribution) The Conservatives are very much in favour of the Government's proposals in clauses 30 and 31, and sc...
David Heath | 504 c754 (Link to this contribution) I hoped that I had made myself clear, but just in case the Minister did not get the full purport of ...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c755-6 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to clause 31. I have two points to make about it, and I am looking at the Minister and...
David Heath | 504 c754 (Link to this contribution) I have two quick questions for the Minister. One is about offences that are committed outside the UK...
Peter Bottomley | 504 c754 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that it was totally clear what the hon. Gentleman was saying. Could he possibly say it...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c759-60 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, that is why I originally tabled my own amendment, why I am happy to support the Liberal Demo...
David Howarth | 504 c760-1 (Link to this contribution) To deal with the final point made by the right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeha...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c758 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 60, page 16, line 39, leave out 'resign' and insert"'seek permanent leave of...
Edward Leigh | 504 c700 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. and learned Friend give way?
Hugh Bayley | 504 c713-4 (Link to this contribution) I am not arguing that clause 29 is the radical, second-stage reform of the House of Lords—nor, I thi...
Dominic Grieve | 504 c770 (Link to this contribution) For the reasons that I gave earlier, we shall oppose the clause standing part of the Bill. In its un...
David Howarth | 504 c708 (Link to this contribution) I am not saying that all deals are shoddy, but this particular deal was one that excluded us and, as...
Lord Wills | 504 c750 (Link to this contribution) Thank you very much, Sir Michael. I understand; I was trying to pre-empt any questions that might ar...
Tony Wright | 504 c734-5 (Link to this contribution) I concede that in a different logical universe there is a consistency to what the hon. Lady is sayin...
David Heath | 504 c739 (Link to this contribution) I accept your guidance, Mrs. Heal. On term limits for Ministers appointed as Ministers to the other...
Lord Tyrie | 504 c724 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to my hon. Friend, but I do not want to give way too much, because this debate has g...
Lord Wills | 504 c766 (Link to this contribution) I would usually bow to the right hon. and learned Gentleman's much greater political experience, but...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 504 c771 (Link to this contribution) I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby.
Lord Wills | 504 c751 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Sir Michael. I was trying to deal with the processes in clause 30 and explain why they ar...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c696 (Link to this contribution) Before I ask my question may I just declare an interest? I am an hereditary peer and thus have a con...
Lord Wills | 504 c757-8 (Link to this contribution) I beg the right hon. and learned Gentleman's pardon. He raised two important points, one of which I ...
Viscount Hailsham | 504 c763 (Link to this contribution) That of course can be dealt with by taking leave of absence.
David Heath | 504 c690 (Link to this contribution) Of course not, Sir Alan. I am grateful to the Lord Chancellor for giving way, and I accept entirely ...
Hugh Bayley | 504 c713 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman is a talented wordsmith, but he is diverting the argument at this poi...

Subjects

Disciplinary proceedings
Crime
By-elections
Constitutional and administrative law
Elections
House of Lords
Disqualification
Hereditary peers
Misconduct
Political parties
Peers
Parliament
Life peers
Reform
Resignations

Legislation

Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill 2008-09 to 2009-10

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
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