Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill

No, not just on that. My position has always been to support an elected or wholly elected second Chamber. My basis for that is that I want the powers of the other place to be very substantially increased so that they are more in line with those of a Senate, but I recognise that the only basis for increasing those powers is a proper franchise for constituting the second Chamber. However, one problem—I made this point to the hon. Member for Cambridge—is that it is difficult for us to agree the franchise and the nature of the constituencies that would give rise to such an election. That has been one of the important sticking points. I for one would be very sorry indeed to see parties having great control over the selection of candidates for the other place. Moreover, I would want there to be relatively small constituencies. If I could not get that, I would rather stick with what I already have. May I briefly acknowledge the role of the hereditaries in the other place? Often, they bring a degree of independence of mind—sometimes eccentric independence—that this place often lacks. It would be very sad if we did not see that continue in the other place. I accept that the by-elections are difficult to justify in principle. I agree that I would have difficulty standing on a public platform and defending the exact mode of both by-elections, or any by-election of that kind. That does not, however, cause me to accept the Justice Secretary's proposal, because I have two profound difficulties with it. The first—it is a view that I adopt entirely as expressed by my hon. and learned Friend—is the objection to piecemeal legislation. It is very important that we address properly the reform of the second Chamber, and I am against piecemeal legislation because in the end we would remove the incentives for a substantial reform of that other place. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh) does not agree with me on this, but I wish to see a substantial change in the nature of composing that other place. The second point—I am sorry that I do not agree with the hon. Member for Thurrock on this, or with the hon. Member for Cambridge—is that I believe in the binding character of undertakings given by Ministers to Parliament. Perhaps that is because I am a lawyer. The Justice Secretary is a lawyer too. I believe that words once given are binding, unless there is an overwhelming reason why they have to be departed from. There is no doubt at all that a deal was made between Lord Irvine of Lairg and the Marquess of Salisbury—Lord Cranborne, as he then was. That was an agreement. As a result of that agreement, legislation was passed which would not otherwise have been passed. This part of it, the by-elections, in the end formed part of the deal.