Statistics and Registration Service Bill. Lords Committee stage first day. Clauses 1, 2, 4 agreed to; clause 3 agreed to as amended. Part 1 of 2 records.
Statistics and Registration Service Bill
Committee of the Whole House (HL)
and
Debate on bills on Tuesday, 24 April 2007,
in the House of Lords.
About these Parliamentary proceedings
Reference
691 c561-621Session
2006-07Legislative stage
Committee stageChamber / Committee
House of Lords chamberRelated items
Statistics and Registration Service Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 53-EN also published.
Wednesday, 14 March 2007
Bills
House of Lords
Wednesday, 14 March 2007
Bills
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Newby | 691 c621 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to all Members of the Committee who have spoken in this debate. I am extremely pleased...
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting | 691 c621 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move that the House be resumed. In moving the Motion, I suggest that the Committee stage be...
Show all contributions (108)
Baroness Noakes | 691 c620-1 (Link to this contribution)
Before the noble Lord, Lord Newby, decides what to do with his amendment, I ask the Minister whether...
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting | 691 c609 (Link to this contribution)
I hope that I can reassure all noble Lords because this is, in a sense, a technical amendment.
Amen...
Lord Newby | 691 c608-9 (Link to this contribution)
The amendment raises an important point. On the one hand, one wants to have a refreshed board, but e...
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting | 691 c609-10 (Link to this contribution)
I cannot tell the noble Baroness at the moment what the initial term of appointment will be, but I s...
Baroness Noakes | 691 c609 (Link to this contribution)
Can the Minister elaborate on one matter? I asked how he saw the appointments working out in practic...
Lord Newby | 691 c607 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 27:
27: Clause 4, page 3, line 5, leave out ““Treasury”” and insert ““Cabinet ...
Baroness Noakes | 691 c607 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 26:
26: Clause 4, page 3, line 3, leave out ““Treasury”” and insert ““Cabinet ...
Lord Turnbull | 691 c608 (Link to this contribution)
I wonder whether the amendment is necessary. My understanding of the getting-on-for-two-years-old pu...
Baroness Noakes | 691 c607-8 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 28:
28: Clause 4, page 3, line 7, at end insert ““, provided that the total ti...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 691 c606-7 (Link to this contribution)
I am apprehensive about the subsection, because it could be used to ease out non-executive members o...
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting | 691 c607 (Link to this contribution)
As we have heard, Amendment No. 24 would remove the ability of the board to pay compensation to a me...
Lord Howard of Rising | 691 c607 (Link to this contribution)
We are talking about taxpayers’ money. Non-executives are not employees. Therefore, if they are not ...
Lord Howard of Rising | 691 c606 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 24:
24: Clause 4, page 2, line 43, leave out subsection (5)
The noble Lord sa...
Baroness Pitkeathley | 691 c606 (Link to this contribution)
If Amendment No. 24 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments Nos. 25 to 27 for reasons of pre-emption....
Baroness Noakes | 691 c606 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 23:
23: Clause 4, page 2, line 29, leave out ““Treasury”” and insert ““Cabinet...
Lord Howard of Rising | 691 c606 (Link to this contribution)
I am glad that the Minister agrees with the spirit of the amendment. Will he go further by giving it...
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting | 691 c605-6 (Link to this contribution)
The Government agree with the spirit of the amendment, but we believe that it is unnecessary. I hope...
Lord Newby | 691 c605 (Link to this contribution)
The amendment is in two parts. It is keen to ensure that there is open competition and that that com...
Lord Howard of Rising | 691 c604-5 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 21:
21: Clause 3, page 2, line 20, at end insert—
““( ) Appointments may be ma...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 691 c614 (Link to this contribution)
I am sorry but, with respect, I do not accept the argument made by the noble Lord, Lord Desai. The n...
Lord Desai | 691 c615 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord has exactly argued my case. Len Cook was a most abused civil servant, but if there is...
Lord Chorley | 691 c615 (Link to this contribution)
It seems to me that this was the main point that the briefing material put out by the Statistics Com...
Lord Turnbull | 691 c616 (Link to this contribution)
My point was that Clause 28 makes clear the status of the National Statistician as the principal adv...
Baroness Noakes | 691 c615-6 (Link to this contribution)
I will speak to AmendmentNo. 34 and the other amendments in this group, some of which have my name a...
Lord Desai | 691 c614 (Link to this contribution)
I think that will not be enough. I still think that I would rather the National Statistician not to ...
Baroness Noakes | 691 c610 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the Minister.
The amendment was tabled to have a discussion about how appointments...
Lord Moser | 691 c613 (Link to this contribution)
I very much support all these amendments spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Newby, partly because of ...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 691 c612-3 (Link to this contribution)
I agree with almost every word that the noble Lord, Lord Newby, said. To my mind this goes absolutel...
Lord Newby | 691 c610-2 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 30:
30: Clause 5, page 3, line 14, leave out paragraph (b) and insert—
““(b) e...
Baroness Noakes | 691 c614 (Link to this contribution)
Does the noble Lord, Lord Desai, want to answer the question?
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 691 c614 (Link to this contribution)
Is it not perfectly consistent with what the noble Lords, Lord Newby and Lord Moser, and I have been...
Lord Desai | 691 c614 (Link to this contribution)
Let me add one more thing to what the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, said, with whom I agree. Statistics...
Lord Turnbull | 691 c613 (Link to this contribution)
It saddens me to part company with the alliance that I have had with the noble Lord, Lord Moser. At ...
Baroness Noakes | 691 c610 (Link to this contribution)
I do not quite understand what the Minister is saying because the Treasury not the board makes all t...
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting | 691 c610 (Link to this contribution)
I undertake to do just that very quickly.
Lord Moser | 691 c597 (Link to this contribution)
The simple answer is that many clauses relate to the Treasury rather than to the Cabinet Office, so ...
Lord Lea of Crondall | 691 c597 (Link to this contribution)
I wonder whether the excellent speeches on the amendments are relevant to the Bill. After all, we ar...
Lord Moser | 691 c593-5 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the noble Baroness for allowing me to speak at this point. I have no problem with the bureau...
Baroness Noakes | 691 c592-3 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 8:
8: Clause 3, page 2, line 3, leave out ““Treasury”” and insert ““Cabinet Of...
Lord Newby | 691 c596-7 (Link to this contribution)
Not surprisingly, as we put our names to some of these amendments, we support them. I do not wish to...
Lord Turnbull | 691 c595-6 (Link to this contribution)
So far I have largely supported the arguments put forward by the Minister, but I am afraid that we c...
Lord Newby | 691 c591 (Link to this contribution)
I realise that the Minister may not have at his fingertips the answers to the questions that I asked...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 691 c591 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for the point she makes. Consultation is specified in the Bill, ...
Lord Dearing | 691 c591-2 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister has gone some way to meeting the substance of the amendment. I concede that it is not w...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 691 c591 (Link to this contribution)
I will do a little better than that. I will emphasise to the noble Lord, Lord Newby, that work has p...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 691 c597-8 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord has made the point that I was going to make in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Lea of ...
Baroness Noakes | 691 c604 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 19:
19: Clause 3, page 2, line 13, leave out ““Treasury”” and insert ““Cabinet...
Baroness Noakes | 691 c604 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 16:
16: Clause 3, page 2, line 11, leave out ““Treasury”” and insert ““Cabinet...
Baroness Noakes | 691 c604 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 14:
14: Clause 3, page 2, line 9, leave out ““Treasury”” and insert ““Cabinet ...
Baroness Noakes | 691 c604 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 12:
12: Clause 3, page 2, line 7, leave out ““Treasury”” and insert ““Cabinet ...
Baroness Noakes | 691 c604 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 10:
10: Clause 3, page 2, line 4, leave out ““Treasury”” and insert ““Cabinet ...
Lord Moser | 691 c600-1 (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I may make two brief points. The Minister has not responded to or commented on the main argu...
Lord Desai | 691 c598 (Link to this contribution)
I am genuinely puzzled by the amendment, because fashions change. People somehow think that Prime Mi...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 691 c584-5 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for that point, as I have been grateful over the past half an hour for the noble Lord’...
Lord Newby | 691 c584 (Link to this contribution)
I do not know whether it will help the noble Baroness or the Minister, but one of the confusions abo...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 691 c585 (Link to this contribution)
That is a perfectly reasonable request and I shall do my very best to comply with it as soon as poss...
Baroness Noakes | 691 c585 (Link to this contribution)
Before I decide what to do with my amendment, I repeat a simple question to which I hope the Ministe...
Lord Croham | 691 c581 (Link to this contribution)
We are worried about the public’s lack of confidence in statistics. The main reason for that lack of...
Viscount Eccles | 691 c581 (Link to this contribution)
It is always difficult to generalise out of personal experience. I have been a chief executive of a ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 691 c582-4 (Link to this contribution)
We have had a most interesting debate, into which I trespass with some trepidation, given the expert...
Lord Turnbull | 691 c582 (Link to this contribution)
I side in this case with the noble Baroness, Lady O’Cathain. It is inconsistent to propose a series ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 691 c584 (Link to this contribution)
I am shying away from the crudity of the concept of top dog, but I emphasise that, while the Nationa...
Baroness O'Cathain | 691 c584 (Link to this contribution)
I must ask the Minister how there can be a chief executive of the board. The chairman is the chairma...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 691 c591 (Link to this contribution)
I want to ask a question of clarification. Being a member of a number of boards, I understand the po...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 691 c590-1 (Link to this contribution)
We have had a most interesting debate, the cardinal point of which was expressed by the noble Viscou...
Lord Newby | 691 c589-90 (Link to this contribution)
I strongly support the arguments of the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, and the noble Baroness, Lady Quin....
Lord Howard of Rising | 691 c587-8 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment No. 6 is intended to probe the Government’s decision to set the minimum number of board me...
Lord Dearing | 691 c586-7 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 5:
5: Clause 3, page 2, line 3, leave out ““five”” and insert ““six””
The nob...
Baroness Noakes | 691 c585-6 (Link to this contribution)
I thank all noble Lords for taking part in the debate, although I cannot claim that I sit here surro...
Viscount Eccles | 691 c589 (Link to this contribution)
Will the Minister address whether non-executive members of the board are all meant to be representat...
Lord Desai | 691 c588-9 (Link to this contribution)
I am in general support of the amendment. The relevant clause says, ““at least five””. It is up to t...
Duke of Montrose | 691 c588 (Link to this contribution)
It may be no surprise to the Committee that the fact that Scotland is receiving due consideration on...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 691 c575 (Link to this contribution)
Before my noble friend replies, I offer one or two brief comments on what the Minister said. He emph...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 691 c575 (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I may respond briefly to that important contribution. First, I share with the noble Lord, Lo...
Baroness Noakes | 691 c575-6 (Link to this contribution)
I am extremely grateful for the intervention of my noble friend Lord Jenkin because he has reminded ...
Baroness Noakes | 691 c576-8 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 2:
2: Clause 3, page 1, line 15, leave out ““executive and””
The noble Barone...
Lord Moser | 691 c578-9 (Link to this contribution)
This is the first of a number of amendments related to the structure of the proposed reforms and the...
Lord Moser | 691 c579 (Link to this contribution)
The implication of what I said is that I will talk about that later, when I have heard more clarity ...
Baroness O'Cathain | 691 c579-80 (Link to this contribution)
Like the noble Lord, Lord Moser, I shall be brief. I have an inherent problem with having a totally ...
Lord Newby | 691 c580 (Link to this contribution)
This is our first opportunity in Committee to discuss what, by common consent, is the most difficult...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 691 c581 (Link to this contribution)
I support the points made by my noble friend and the noble Baroness, Lady O’Cathain. She has had man...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 691 c568-70 (Link to this contribution)
This has been a fascinating debate. It began with a proposal from the Opposition of an alternate mod...
Baroness Noakes | 691 c570 (Link to this contribution)
It may help the Committee if the Minister explains where in the Bill a five-year funding provision i...
Lord Barnett | 691 c566-7 (Link to this contribution)
I share the noble Baroness’s concern that any such body should be wholly independent—and certainly i...
Lord Desai | 691 c567 (Link to this contribution)
I agree with the noble Lords, Lord Turnbull and Lord Newby, and my noble friend Lord Barnett. We sus...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 691 c571 (Link to this contribution)
It may be simple to put it in the Bill, but that is not the burden of the amendments of the noble Ba...
Baroness Noakes | 691 c571-2 (Link to this contribution)
I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate. I am sorry that my model did not g...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 691 c570 (Link to this contribution)
We have indicated that that is the basis of our position on the board. Our model is clear that the b...
Baroness O'Cathain | 691 c571 (Link to this contribution)
I am sorry to stop the Minister in full flow, and thank him for giving way. If that is the implicati...
Baroness Noakes | 691 c572-3 (Link to this contribution)
I have tabled our opposition to Clause 2 standing part of the Bill in order to debate whether a non-...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 691 c573-5 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for the way in which the noble Baroness described her Motion, even though I am in grea...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 691 c561 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved acc...
Baroness Noakes | 691 c562-4 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 1:
1: Before Clause 1, insert the following new Clause—
““PART A1
The Commissi...
Lord Turnbull | 691 c565 (Link to this contribution)
I thought that I had made that clear; I shall support the Benches opposite on that amendment.
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 691 c565-6 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to my noble friend on the Front Bench for what she said about the involvement of both ...
Lord Newby | 691 c566 (Link to this contribution)
I am sure that the whole Committee would agree with the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, that one ...
Lord Turnbull | 691 c564 (Link to this contribution)
At the conclusion of my Second Reading speech, I supported the proposal from the noble Lord, Lord Je...
Baroness Noakes | 691 c564 (Link to this contribution)
Whom does the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, envisage would appoint the chairman of the Joint Committee ...
Lord Turnbull | 691 c564 (Link to this contribution)
The chairman would be appointed under Nolan rules; I think that that is made clear in the Bill. The ...
Baroness O'Cathain | 691 c564 (Link to this contribution)
Does that mean that the noble Lord anticipates a later amendment in which the board would report not...
Baroness Noakes | 691 c616-7 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for that clarification from the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, but if the National Statist...
Baroness Noakes | 691 c601 (Link to this contribution)
We have had a good debate. The noble Lord, Lord Moser, has reinforced his main points and I will not...
Baroness Quin | 691 c588 (Link to this contribution)
I support the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, for the reasons he has given. His co...
Lord Northbrook | 691 c579 (Link to this contribution)
What does the noble Lord think about the composition of the board? Should it have executive and non-...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 691 c617-20 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for the way that the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, has advanced the cause of her amendm...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 691 c598-600 (Link to this contribution)
Last week, the Evening Standard carried headlines on the clash between the Liberal Democrats and the...
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