UK Parliament / Open data

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate on bills and Committee proceeding on Wednesday, 28 February 2007, in the House of Lords.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

689 c171-238GC 

Session

2006-07

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords Grand Committee

Related items

Welfare Reform Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 24-EN also published.
Wednesday, 10 January 2007
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Countess of Mar | 689 c191-2GC (Link to this contribution) I wholeheartedly support the amendment, which goes right to the heart of what I have been saying for...
Baroness Meacher | 689 c173GC (Link to this contribution) I support that strongly. It reminds me that in tribunal hearings, if an applicant has a friend or bu...

Show all contributions (132)
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c174GC (Link to this contribution) I would support the sentiments behind the noble Lord’s comments. The point that I was trying to make...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c174GC (Link to this contribution) In truth, we have said—or are going to say—that it is important that communication with customers is...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c180GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness talked a good deal about ““healthcare professionals””—a phrase that recurs a good...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c182GC (Link to this contribution) I know, and that is why I am trying to make the description as clear as possible. It is very importa...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c183GC (Link to this contribution) To round off this discussion, I was absolutely delighted to listen to the Minister, who, second time...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c219GC (Link to this contribution) That must be illogical. I accept that there will not be many people in the circumstances that I have...
Baroness Meacher | 689 c202GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the many noble Lords who have spoken so eloquently, particularly those who speak from person...
Countess of Mar | 689 c198GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister goes that far, he mentioned identifying the barriers to getting back to work. In...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c172-3GC (Link to this contribution) I hope to start this afternoon by being quite brief. I recognise the noble Lord’s concern for the we...
Lord Addington | 689 c171-2GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has once again raised an interesting matter. Will this include someone with literacy ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c171GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 32: 32: Clause 8 , page 6, line 17, at end insert— ““( ) provide for the prese...
Viscount Simon | 689 c171GC (Link to this contribution) If there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, this Committee will adjourn as soon as t...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c174GC (Link to this contribution) It occurs to me that we are all singing from roughly the same hymn-sheet—which is very healthy. The ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c174-7GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 33: 33: Clause 8 , page 6, line 17, at end insert— ““( ) make provision as to ...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c177-8GC (Link to this contribution) I fear that I shall repeat much of what the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, has just said, as I too h...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c179-80GC (Link to this contribution) At the work-focused interview? Yes, it is the personal adviser plus their intermediary. Just for the...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c182GC (Link to this contribution) So much to say, so many pieces of paper. The definition of a health professional is picked up on pag...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c182-3GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for pointing out that the definition of a healthcare profes...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c183GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, will have plenty of time because Amendment No. 111 in the Marshalled...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c183GC (Link to this contribution) I am very happy to support the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, but of course I take...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c183GC (Link to this contribution) That is an expression that noble Lords may have heard me use before, because all politicians are tem...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c186GC (Link to this contribution) I was not shaking my head at the Minister. Yes, of course she may.
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c187GC (Link to this contribution) The point about the reassessment of claims before the appeal stage is important. One of the key issu...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c186GC (Link to this contribution) Is it sufficient, therefore, for the claimant to take the information with him?
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c231-2GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is generous to give me this opportunity. I was about to give an undertaking to look f...
Baroness Meacher | 689 c238GC (Link to this contribution) I pay tribute to noble Lords who have contributed to the debate so effectively. Again, it is most he...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c220GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 59: 59: Clause 10 , page 9, line 17, at end insert— ““(9) Relevant information...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c220-1GC (Link to this contribution) In speaking to this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 87 in the name of the noble Baron...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c219GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, I can reassure the noble Lord on that. Those are two separate things. No deduction will be due ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c219GC (Link to this contribution) What I was trying to establish was whether the sanction would be applied only to ESA benefit, not to...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c222-3GC (Link to this contribution) That was extremely helpful. Clearly, in the past, having a rack of leaflets on benefits in the jobce...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c223GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, for raising the important question of the scripts in Jobc...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c227-8GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise if I am not being clear. That may be because I am getting slightly tired as the afternoo...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c227GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I might give the noble Baroness some thinking time. I understand that under the existing reg...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c225-7GC (Link to this contribution) I thank noble Lords for giving me the opportunity to respond to these important questions and I hope...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c231GC (Link to this contribution) I welcome the debate on this whole clause, which gives the Committee a chance to air their worries a...
Baroness Meacher | 689 c228-31GC (Link to this contribution) I oppose the Question whether Clause 12 shall stand part of the Bill. My remarks will apply also to ...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c210GC (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in support of what we propose in this group of amendments. I...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c210GC (Link to this contribution) I am happy to do that. I think that the figure I quoted of some 400 regulations in total flowing fro...
Baroness Meacher | 689 c212-3GC (Link to this contribution) I want to make a few brief points. As I understand it, our main concern—certainly it is mine in supp...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c212GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 47: 47: Clause 9, page 7, line 40, at end insert— ““( ) for a person who is be...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c213GC (Link to this contribution) Despite what the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, just said, I understand that the Mental Health Act 19...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c215-6GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 49: 49: Clause 10 , page 8, line 2, at end insert ““and ( ) not in the assessm...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c218-9GC (Link to this contribution) I accept the Minister’s view that the amendment goes far, far too wide—it was intended to cover not ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c209GC (Link to this contribution) Sob stuff. It is one thing for this Minister, for regulation reform, to say that he will keep this u...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c209GC (Link to this contribution) It is very unsettling when the noble Lord keeps going on about Ministers being temporary. I would ho...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c209GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for that. I will certainly look into that matter and write to he...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 689 c200-2GC (Link to this contribution) After listening to the Minister’s response, I think that he must take from the important exchange th...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c196GC (Link to this contribution) I did not quite say that. I said, using my own phraseology, that the original pilots were rather ske...
Lord Addington | 689 c197GC (Link to this contribution) On the question of best practice, I specifically asked how best practice is being passed on here. Th...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c196GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister moves on, is this not in part anyway what part two of the pilots is intended to ...
Baroness Meacher | 689 c195GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister said that the Pathways for Work pilots have proved that the procedures work with people...
Baroness Murphy | 689 c192GC (Link to this contribution) I add my voice in support of the amendment, on which the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, has expounded...
Baroness Thomas of Walliswood | 689 c191GC (Link to this contribution) From these Benches we support this large group of amendments. I shall speak specifically to Amendmen...
Baroness Meacher | 689 c188-90GC (Link to this contribution) I am so sorry, but I was mindful of the time. As has already been noted, the Welfare Reform Bill env...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c194-5GC (Link to this contribution) It is impossible not to understand the strength of feeling on this issue, but I hope that what I hav...
Baroness Meacher | 689 c187-8GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 35: 35: Clause 8 , page 6, line 25, at end insert— ““( ) as to the manner in w...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c188GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but the noble Baroness is speaking so fast that it is quite difficult to hear her.
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c174GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness. As I said, we are all close to singing from the same hymn-sheet...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c178-9GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that I will be able to clear up some of the questions around the timing of assessments. In ad...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c181GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness answers that, the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, has made a very valid point. ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c184GC (Link to this contribution) I give modified support to the amendment because the GP’s letter will be vital. It occurred to me to...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c184-5GC (Link to this contribution) The amendments are concerned with the requirements on third parties to provide the Department for Wo...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c185GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, withdraws her amendment, where in Schedule 3 is the alterati...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c186GC, (corrigendum) 312GC (Link to this contribution) It sounds as if there is a certain amount of confusion. It was interesting that the Minister said th...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c187GC (Link to this contribution) While the Minister is thinking about her reply, I have one quick question. Can the decision be overt...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c187GC (Link to this contribution) I can understand that, but my supplementary question, if the Minister remembers it, was whether one ...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c186GC (Link to this contribution) I am advised that we need a separate process for information to go from the GP to the Atos Origin do...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c186GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to plug away at this, but does that mean that the first interview will not normally be he...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c234GC (Link to this contribution) Now that we have heard from both halves of the Meacher and Layard double act, I want to put formally...
Countess of Mar | 689 c238GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness can just sit down. Clause 12 agreed to.
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c223GC (Link to this contribution) Any case where there has been an error or where full information has not been given is to be regrett...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c223-4GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 73: 73: Clause 12 , page 11, line 38, leave out subsection (7) The noble Lord...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c228GC (Link to this contribution) Good. At least, we have got to the bottom of that. Looking at Clause 12 as a whole, the Explanatory...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c228GC (Link to this contribution) In that case, it would have been far better if the noble Baroness had been prepared to say that ther...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c224-5GC (Link to this contribution) I would like to speak to Amendment No. 82. Clause 17 provides full disqualification from benefit on ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c231GC (Link to this contribution) Clause stand part is a catch-all debate. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, that unless ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c210GC (Link to this contribution) When my colleague, Jim Murphy, spoke as a Minister, he spoke for the Government, which is on the rec...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c211GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may make a suggestion. The department publishes an annual report of its activities in whic...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c211GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord withdraws his amendment, does he accept that my response referred specifically...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c211GC (Link to this contribution) I gave way and in a sense we have just had an intervention on an intervention. Perhaps I may now con...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c216-7GC (Link to this contribution) We on these Benches support the amendments. As Leonard Cheshire points out in a very helpful briefin...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c213-5GC (Link to this contribution) Although we cannot accept the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, as it stands, I ca...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c209GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, I believe that that would be correct. Perhaps I should have said in conclusion to my remarks th...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c209GC (Link to this contribution) Several things occur to me. Bearing in mind my jocular remark earlier that all Ministers are tempora...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c206-8GC (Link to this contribution) Not at all. Many of those regulations are technical and flow, as the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, ...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c208-9GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can ask about the precoded answers and the notes that people can use when filling in forms...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c206GC (Link to this contribution) That is a staggering figure—400 regulations. Does that not suggest that not enough work has been don...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c196GC (Link to this contribution) I do not believe that that is a correct assessment. The existing arrangements are trying to reach bo...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c196GC (Link to this contribution) I think that that correctly cites the research, but the IFS said that it is too early to read too mu...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c192-4GC (Link to this contribution) There is so much consensus around the Committee that it is difficult for someone whose amendments ar...
Lord Addington | 689 c192GC (Link to this contribution) I shall briefly add my voice to this. One of the problems with this group of amendments is the incre...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c187GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister very much for that long reply and the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, for joinin...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 689 c173GC (Link to this contribution) this is an important amendment and I support it. The problem is that the provisions are currently de...
Baroness Meacher | 689 c174GC (Link to this contribution) It is 70 per cent, compared with 50 per cent. We are talking here about entitlement to benefits, whi...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 689 c180-1GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could ask one or two questions. The Minister is doing extremely well explaining a very dif...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c179GC (Link to this contribution) My memory being such, can I stop the Minister there? Is it only the personal adviser who has been ap...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c185GC, (corrigendum) 312GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister replies and before I withdraw the amendment, perhaps I may say that I remain unh...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c183-4GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 34: 34: Clause 8 , page 6, line 22, at end insert— ““( ) as to the duties of t...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c185GC (Link to this contribution) We will have a further discussion on this matter later when we debate appeals. The issues that the n...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c186GC (Link to this contribution) I am advised that we have to be extremely mindful of the possibility of fraud if people bring inform...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c186GC (Link to this contribution) In terms of working with GPs and health professionals generally, ideas are being looked at for impro...
Countess of Mar | 689 c238GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee stands adjourned until tomorrow.
Lord Layard | 689 c232-4GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. I have been a lifelong supporter of welfare-to-work policies, so I favour t...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c234-8GC (Link to this contribution) Although I seek to encourage the Committee to reject the proposition that Clause 12 should not stand...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c238GC (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until two o’clock tomorrow.
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c219GC (Link to this contribution) Good. We all accept that the WFHR assessment should take place as soon as possible unless there are ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c221-2GC (Link to this contribution) I am pleased that Amendment No. 59 recognises the potential of the work-focused health-related asses...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c210GC (Link to this contribution) If I thought that Ministers were being consistent, I would not have to plug on, but the whole purpos...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c211GC (Link to this contribution) I stress that a large amount of research and review is undertaken over a whole range of policy areas...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c215GC (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords who have spoken, especially the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher. Her experience...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c219GC (Link to this contribution) There are two separate things—there is entitlement to benefit for whatever length of period, and if ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c217-8GC (Link to this contribution) The Government’s aim in our welfare reforms is to reduce dependency on benefits by providing custome...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c219GC (Link to this contribution) I emphasise that I do not see the situation as being illogical. The level of benefit will be impacte...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c209GC (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether the noble Lord could confirm that it will not be the customer, as he calls him, who...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c197GC (Link to this contribution) We are committed to writing to the noble Lord about our debate last time about spreading best practi...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c202-3GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 38: 38: Clause 8 , page 7, line 6, at end insert— ““(7) The Secretary of State...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c202GC (Link to this contribution) I agree with a lot of what the noble Lord said about the importance of engaging with these customers...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c206GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Government Amendments Nos. 93, 95, 113, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 109 and 110 ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c203-5GC (Link to this contribution) This is another huge group of amendments, many of which pertain to the Government. I shall speak fir...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c205-6GC (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend in calling for an annual report on the operation of the assessment for lim...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c198-200GC (Link to this contribution) If we are talking about people who would be in the support group, there is no requirement to engage ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c196GC (Link to this contribution) On the latter, if we are looking at the provider-led Pathways for the other 60 per cent of the count...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c195-6GC (Link to this contribution) I do not believe that that is strictly correct. We acknowledge that there is concern that those with...
Baroness Meacher | 689 c196GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may push this one stage further. Am I right in believing that the IFS work shows that ther...

Subjects

Disability
Disability living allowance
Benefits rules
Administration
Depressive illnesses
Chronic fatigue syndrome
Fraud
Employment
Health
Health professions
Interviews
Learning disability
Incapacity benefit
Medical examinations
Mental illness
Pilot schemes
Unemployed people
Employment and support allowance

Legislation

Welfare Reform Bill 2005-06 to 2006-07

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
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