Welfare Reform Bill

I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in support of what we propose in this group of amendments. I press the Minister to think very carefully about what my noble friend Lady Thomas has said about how the computer system operates, particularly given her personal experience. I am afraid that I listened with increasing scepticism the longer the Minister went on, particularly when he suggested that stakeholders, as he put it, should all be making suggestions to Atos Origin about how the system works, given that we cannot really see it. There is a major problem on the point about so-called commercial confidentiality. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, in particular, for his support on Amendment No. 38. I am afraid that I rather anticipated what the Minister would say in response. I thought that I had already dealt with the argument put forward by Mr Murphy in my opening remarks, and I was not impressed with it. Citizens advice bureaux, for example, are saying that it would be especially helpful to seek a commitment from Ministers to commission an independent evaluation of the whole PCA process. I say that it would be more helpful still to provide for a clear, regular and genuinely independent assessment in the Bill. At the moment the Minister’s arguments about interference with policy operations, stewardship and so forth, basically add up to saying, ““You cannot have an independent assessment””. By definition, the Government are saying that they will be judge and jury in this. We do not accept those arguments.