UK Parliament / Open data

Armed Forces Bill

Debate on bills on Tuesday, 7 November 2006, in the House of Commons.
Armed Forces Bill. Programme motion (No 2) for proceedings on consideration of Lords message and any subsequent stages. Agreed to on question (formal). Consideration of Lords amendments. Lords amendments considered and agreed to, the Commons being willing to waive their privileges in respect of Lords amendment no 55.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

451 c765-814 

Session

2005-06

Department

Ministry of Defence

Legislative stage

Lords amendments

Procedure

Programme motions
New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Commons chamber

Related items

Armed Forces Bill. Lords amendments.
Monday, 6 November 2006
Bills
House of Commons

Proceeding contributions

Speaker | 451 c766 (Link to this contribution) I inform the House that privilege is involved in Lords amendment No. 55 to the Armed Forces Bill. If...
Claire Curtis-Thomas | 451 c768 (Link to this contribution) The matter is of grave concern to a number of my constituents who had a relative who was summarily k...

Show all contributions (143)
Derek Twigg | 451 c768 (Link to this contribution) I understood the point that the hon. Member for Westbury (Dr. Murrison) made earlier about that issu...
Julian Lewis | 451 c768 (Link to this contribution) The problem that I have intellectually with what the Minister proposes is that he is going to let th...
Derek Twigg | 451 c767-8 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman does not mind, I shall develop my speech a little further. As I said, the Gov...
Bob Spink | 451 c768 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is a very generous gentleman. He opened a war memorial in my constituency a week or so ...
Derek Twigg | 451 c768 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has made an important point. I know how much work she has put into her campaign on be...
Derek Twigg | 451 c767 (Link to this contribution) First, in response to the hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Robathan), we are not rewriting history. With r...
Andrew Murrison | 451 c767 (Link to this contribution) No mention is made in the amendment of the 2,700 servicemen whose sentences were commuted and who fa...
Derek Twigg | 451 c766 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
Derek Twigg | 451 c766 (Link to this contribution) Before I start my speech on the amendments, and with your permission, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am sure ...
Speaker | 451 c766 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to consider Lords amendment No. 65.
Derek Twigg | 451 c767 (Link to this contribution) I am aware of the strong argument that the hon. Gentleman makes, and that others Members and people ...
Lord Robathan | 451 c766-7 (Link to this contribution) This subject is fraught with difficulty. The Minister has referred to the terrible circumstances of ...
Lord Beamish | 451 c769-70 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend give particular thanks for the work done by John Hipkin? John was one of my cons...
Derek Twigg | 451 c770 (Link to this contribution) Many people have worked tirelessly, but I particularly recognise the work that John Hipkin did. Lor...
Lord Bellingham | 451 c769 (Link to this contribution) The key to this decision has obviously been the shell shock that was beyond the control of those sol...
Derek Twigg | 451 c769 (Link to this contribution) As I have said, there is an issue relating to conviction for wrongdoing and, obviously, disciplinary...
Gerald Howarth | 451 c772 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend poses a perfectly legitimate question to which I do not know the answer. The Secretar...
Peter Bottomley | 451 c772-3 (Link to this contribution) I am interested in my hon. Friend’s speech. Is the matter not summed up by the Lords amendment, whic...
Gerald Howarth | 451 c772 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman, with whom I have had the pleasure of serving on the Defence Committee, knows me ...
Lord Robathan | 451 c772 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to make a cheap point but, as my hon. Friend knows, I am not convinced that this is an...
Gerald Howarth | 451 c770-1 (Link to this contribution) I join the Minister in paying tribute to the soldier from the Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment who has t...
Andrew Mackinlay | 451 c780 (Link to this contribution) It is certainly not gesture politics to the late Gertie Farr or her daughter. They have made it clea...
Andrew Mackinlay | 451 c780 (Link to this contribution) I will give way. I will knock this one down as well.
Andrew Murrison | 451 c780 (Link to this contribution) I do not intend to attack the hon. Gentleman or the case that he is trying to pursue. He has mention...
Andrew Mackinlay | 451 c779-80 (Link to this contribution) I was privileged to know the widow of Harry Farr. In 1993 I spent a whole afternoon with her. As the...
Andrew Murrison | 451 c780 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Andrew Mackinlay | 451 c779 (Link to this contribution) I believe that it is a one-off. It is such an outstanding matter and injustice is so grave. We have ...
Lord Robathan | 451 c779 (Link to this contribution) Did I hear the hon. Gentleman say that he knew the widow of Harry Farr? Surely she would be about 11...
Gerald Howarth | 451 c778-9 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has campaigned vigorously on this issue; he makes a special case for these world ...
Andrew Mackinlay | 451 c777-8 (Link to this contribution) I have been in Parliament for 14 years, and this evening’s debate will probably turn out not to be t...
Nick Harvey | 451 c776-7 (Link to this contribution) This is a very delicate matter, and in the debate so far we have heard two different sides of the ar...
Julian Lewis | 451 c782 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree that this is a matter not of rewriting history, but writing history. However, the c...
Andrew Mackinlay | 451 c782 (Link to this contribution) I would argue that point: some people who call themselves historians make it up as they go along. So...
Lord Bellingham | 451 c781 (Link to this contribution) I respect and admire the hon. Gentleman as a campaigner. He has been absolutely tenacious in this ca...
Peter Bottomley | 451 c781 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to take up time in the debate, but many who see more benefits than disbenefits in the ...
Andrew Mackinlay | 451 c781-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. It has been a cross-party campaign. I regret that no Irish Memb...
Ben Wallace | 451 c780 (Link to this contribution) We have dealt with subsection (4)(b). The widow and daughter of Harry Farr will still be related to ...
Andrew Mackinlay | 451 c781 (Link to this contribution) Reference has been made to another place. It cannot be said loudly enough that, among the people who...
Lord Beamish | 451 c780 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that it is remarkable that the amendment was not opposed in the other plac...
Gerald Howarth | 451 c773 (Link to this contribution) I give way to my right hon. namesake.
George Howarth | 451 c773 (Link to this contribution) Did not my hon. Friend the Minister make it clear that he was decoupling the decisions made at the t...
Gerald Howarth | 451 c773-4 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman should think carefully about that because, whatever the Minister said, the fact i...
David Burrowes | 451 c774 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend find it interesting that during the extensive evidence sessions on the Bill befo...
Gerald Howarth | 451 c774 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. My hon. Friend and I were on the Committee and we met people who were on active operations. ...
Lord Touhig | 451 c774-5 (Link to this contribution) It is indeed timely that in this week before 11 November we debate the amendment granting a pardon t...
Ben Wallace | 451 c775 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman listed several offences for which people would be pardoned. He left out the offen...
Lord Touhig | 451 c775-6 (Link to this contribution) That point is covered in the amendment and if the hon. Gentleman will permit me, I will refer to it ...
George Howarth | 451 c773 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Gerald Howarth | 451 c773 (Link to this contribution) I am acutely aware of the sensitivity of the issue. The right hon. Member for Islwyn said that he ho...
Speaker | 451 c798 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss Lords amendment No. 17.
Derek Twigg | 451 c798 (Link to this contribution) The Lords amendments are a response to concerns raised in the Select Committee and the other place. ...
Derek Twigg | 451 c798 (Link to this contribution) The Lords amendments are designed to clarify and simplify certain offences. None of them has any sub...
Derek Twigg | 451 c798 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
Derek Twigg | 451 c798-9 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment. I suggest that we might...
Gerald Howarth | 451 c798 (Link to this contribution) Again, I am grateful to the Minister for his brief comments. We spotted in Committee that there was ...
Derek Twigg | 451 c798 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment. Again, I will be brief....
Gerald Howarth | 451 c800-1 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to agree with the hon. Gentleman, with whom I was happy to share that trip. He is right. ...
Lord Beamish | 451 c800 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry if I have upset the hon. Gentleman this evening, but I agree with him on the amendment. D...
Mike Hall | 451 c795 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Lord Bellingham | 451 c795-6 (Link to this contribution) I want to be brief, because we need to make progress. There is a long list of amendments. I am going...
Derek Twigg | 451 c796-7 (Link to this contribution) With the leave of the House, Madam Deputy Speaker. We have had a reflective, important and well tho...
Derek Twigg | 451 c797 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
Speaker | 451 c797 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss Lords amendments Nos. 2 to 6 and 66.
Derek Twigg | 451 c797 (Link to this contribution) I will be brief because I am conscious that Opposition Members want to ensure that their comments ab...
Derek Twigg | 451 c798 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
Gerald Howarth | 451 c797 (Link to this contribution) I quite understand the Minister’s remarks. Given the interest in world war one pardons among hon. Me...
Speaker | 451 c798 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss Lords amendments Nos. 8 to 15, 67 and 68.
Gerald Howarth | 451 c792 (Link to this contribution) Just to put the record straight, the hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that I was commissioned in ...
Lord Beamish | 451 c792 (Link to this contribution) And did not go any further. The nearest that the hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr. Harper) got to...
Ben Wallace | 451 c791 (Link to this contribution) My idea of closure is to learn from history and not tinker with it. We should recognise the tragedy ...
Lord Beamish | 451 c791-2 (Link to this contribution) I rise to support the amendment, which I believe is the correct way to put right a dreadful wrong do...
Ben Wallace | 451 c791 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that clarification. We must recognise that the stigma will still...
Lord Touhig | 451 c791 (Link to this contribution) The pardon is not perfect, and there are matters—the hon. Member for Mid-Norfolk (Mr. Simpson) discu...
Lord Beamish | 451 c792-3 (Link to this contribution) I am well aware of that and I have to pay tribute to people such as the hon. Member for North-East M...
Lord Robathan | 451 c792 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman; I had not intended to rejoin this debate. My point was not to a...
Lord Robathan | 451 c792 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mike Hall | 451 c785-8 (Link to this contribution) May I begin by adding my condolences to those sent by other right hon. and hon. Members to the famil...
Lord Beamish | 451 c790 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman not agree with me that, as was said by the hon. Member for Mid-Norfolk (Mr. ...
Ben Wallace | 451 c790 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman misses the point. They were sent home by people in that era, making judgments on ...
Keith Simpson | 451 c782-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to be allowed to address the House on this subject. I declare a number of interests. F...
Patrick Mercer | 451 c791 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones) has not quite put his fi...
Ben Wallace | 451 c790 (Link to this contribution) That is the most patronising pap that I have heard for a long time.
Lord Beamish | 451 c790 (Link to this contribution) I take on board the hon. Gentleman’s point, but that stain is still on the character of those famili...
Ben Wallace | 451 c791 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his advice. I certainly agree that this debate is not about clas...
Keith Simpson | 451 c790 (Link to this contribution) Can I intervene on what sounds a little like an old-fashioned class-war disagreement? I do not think...
Speaker | 451 c805 (Link to this contribution) With this, we may discuss Lords amendments Nos. 30, 50, 53, 54 and 69.
Derek Twigg | 451 c805 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
Derek Twigg | 451 c805 (Link to this contribution) The amendments simply change the reference to the ““Supreme Court”” of Northern Ireland to the ““Cou...
Derek Twigg | 451 c805 (Link to this contribution) The amendments deal with the minimum and maximum numbers of lay members required for a court martial...
Speaker | 451 c805 (Link to this contribution) With this, we may discuss Lords amendments Nos. 28, 29, 31 to 34, 52 and 62.
Bob Russell | 451 c806 (Link to this contribution) I should like to reinforce the point made by the hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth). There was ...
Gerald Howarth | 451 c805-6 (Link to this contribution) This group of amendments places in the Bill the make-up of the panels. There was much debate on this...
Derek Twigg | 451 c807-8 (Link to this contribution) Some important points and reflective contributions have been made. I am happy to put several points ...
Patrick Mercer | 451 c806-7 (Link to this contribution) I warmly welcome the change made by the Bill to allow servicemen and women of all ranks to sit in ju...
Speaker | 451 c808 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to take Lords amendments Nos. 38 to 46 and 70 to 73.
Gerald Howarth | 451 c804 (Link to this contribution) What we want to avoid is a repetition of the Trooper Williams case. We want to avoid the Attorney-Ge...
Gerald Howarth | 451 c805 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to accept the amendment, although it is curious that the Government will be locked into t...
Derek Twigg | 451 c804 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment. The commanding officer ...
Derek Twigg | 451 c804 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
Derek Twigg | 451 c804 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend makes an important point. However, I emphasise my previous comments about excep...
George Howarth | 451 c804 (Link to this contribution) Is not it the case that, by definition, an exceptional circumstance cannot be described in advance?
Nick Harvey | 451 c801 (Link to this contribution) I shall not detain the House. I, too, welcome the fact that the amendment has been agreed in the oth...
Patrick Mercer | 451 c802 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. During the earlier stages of the Bill, my hon. Friend the Member f...
Speaker | 451 c802 (Link to this contribution) Order. We have had some latitude, but all hon. Members should concentrate on the amendment before us...
Patrick Mercer | 451 c802-3 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is of course right. In all humility, which of us who has been in that posit...
Patrick Mercer | 451 c801 (Link to this contribution) I think that I speak as the only Member present and probably the only Member of this House who has s...
Geoffrey Cox | 451 c801 (Link to this contribution) I want briefly to refer to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth) a...
Patrick Mercer | 451 c802 (Link to this contribution) Indeed he was, but he started as a fisherman’s son.
Derek Twigg | 451 c803 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the support for the amendment and the considered comments that have been made—based, in th...
Willie Rennie | 451 c812 (Link to this contribution) The Government are moving in the right direction and making progress towards what Nicholas Blake out...
Derek Twigg | 451 c812 (Link to this contribution) I am conscious of the issues raised in connection with this amendment. I am sure that the hon. Membe...
Derek Twigg | 451 c812-3 (Link to this contribution) I accept that the hon. Gentleman has strong views about who the commissioner should be. The independ...
Gerald Howarth | 451 c812 (Link to this contribution) I understand entirely that the commissioner will be dealing with complaints from soldiers, sailors a...
Derek Twigg | 451 c812 (Link to this contribution) I just wanted to make that clear. Clearly, the commissioner has to be independent and we want the be...
Speaker | 451 c814 (Link to this contribution) The House will have heard the hon. Gentleman’s concerns. I must be bound by the decision that the Ho...
Gerald Howarth | 451 c813-4 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It arises out of the timetabling of proceedings today. I seek your...
Derek Twigg | 451 c808 (Link to this contribution) I shall be brief, in view of the time. These minor amendments are designed to clarify sentencing pow...
Derek Twigg | 451 c810 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
Speaker | 451 c810 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss Lords amendments Nos. 48, 49, 55 and 63.
Derek Twigg | 451 c810 (Link to this contribution) I am conscious of the time, and I know that some hon. Members wish to contribute on these amendments...
Gerald Howarth | 451 c810-1 (Link to this contribution) This is an important group of amendments and we accept that it is part of the Government’s response ...
Gerald Howarth | 451 c808-9 (Link to this contribution) A judgment on the Martin case was delivered recently in the European Court of Human Rights. Minister...
Derek Twigg | 451 c809-10 (Link to this contribution) On 24 October, the European Court of Human Rights gave its judgment in the case of Martin. We need t...
Gerald Howarth | 451 c810 (Link to this contribution) Having attended relatively few of these debates, the Under-Secretary may not be familiar with my vie...
Derek Twigg | 451 c810 (Link to this contribution) I understand where the hon. Gentleman is coming from. Given that the use of these powers is subject...
Derek Twigg | 451 c769 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman reflects a common view, not least among many ex-service men and veterans. It was ...
Lord Beamish | 451 c771 (Link to this contribution) I thought that it was too good to last and that the hon. Gentleman might welcome something that the ...
Gerald Howarth | 451 c799-800 (Link to this contribution) As the Minister indicated, the Opposition consider this to be one of the most important issues in th...
Derek Twigg | 451 c804 (Link to this contribution) I understand why the hon. Gentleman wants the matter to be clearly set out. I thought that I had don...
Derek Twigg | 451 c804 (Link to this contribution) The amendments are designed to ensure that the court martial’s powers of sentencing are restricted t...
George Howarth | 451 c802 (Link to this contribution) Broadly speaking, I agree with the hon. Gentleman. However, I think that the hon. Member for Aldersh...
Andrew Mackinlay | 451 c781 (Link to this contribution) I am not briefed on Breaker Morant. However, I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman raised that case, ...
Speaker | 451 c804 (Link to this contribution) With this, we may discuss Lords amendments Nos. 21 to 24, 35 and 36.
Lord Beamish | 451 c811-2 (Link to this contribution) In Committee, I tabled new clause 24 which would have introduced an independent service commissioner...
Andrew Mackinlay | 451 c780 (Link to this contribution) That is not my reading of the legislation, and it is not theirs. They welcome the initiative of the ...
Lord Bellingham | 451 c794-5 (Link to this contribution) As far as that last set of remarks is concerned, many of us have listened to this argument very care...
Ben Wallace | 451 c788-90 (Link to this contribution) As a Lancashire MP, I join in the tribute paid to the soldier of the 2nd Battalion of the Duke of La...
Derek Twigg | 451 c805 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment.

Subjects

Complaints
Disciplinary proceedings
Disclosure of information
Armed forces
Convictions
Courts martial
Civilians
Discharges
Capital punishment
Desertion
Certification
Defence equipment
Powers
Membership
Staff
Military police
Officers
Prerogative of mercy
Sentencing
World War I
Service Civilian Court

Legislation

Armed Forces Bill 2005-06

Link

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