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Natural Environment and Rural Communities Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Wednesday, 8 February 2006, in the House of Lords.
Natural Environment and Rural Communities Bill. Lords Committee stage fourth day. Clauses 14-40 agreed to. Schedules 2-4 agreed to, schedule 2 as amended. New clause considered. (Part 1 of 2)

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

678 c649-719 

Session

2005-06

Department

Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Related items

Natural Environment and Rural Communities Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory notes HL Bill 23-EN also published.
Wednesday, 12 October 2005
Bills
House of Lords
Natural Environment and Rural Communities Bill
Wednesday, 8 February 2006
Parliamentary proceedings
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Viscount Eccles | 678 c715 (Link to this contribution) In speaking to Clause 25, I will add briefly to the points made on Clause 16. I remain uneasy about ...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 678 c714 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to anticipate too much the noble Viscount’s opposition to the Question that Clause 25 ...

Show all contributions (117)
Lord Bach | 678 c714 (Link to this contribution) I understand the nature of this probing amendment. Clause 24(2) gives the Secretary of State power t...
Duke of Montrose | 678 c713-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 259:"After Clause 24, insert the following new clause—" ““GUIDANCE    The Secr...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 678 c713 (Link to this contribution) I feel very encouraged by the support of the noble Lord, Lord Carter. I must have argued my case mor...
Duke of Montrose | 678 c715 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for offering his explanations. We on these Benches are very keen to support any...
Lord Bach | 678 c715 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend has got that right. The difference is between ““having regard to”” guidance, which i...
Lord Carter | 678 c714-5 (Link to this contribution) I also was puzzled why there was no guidance in this section. I think I understand why from my noble...
Lord Bach | 678 c714 (Link to this contribution) Directions are always essential in case an NDPB goes completely off the rails and does something abs...
Baroness Byford | 678 c719 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for that suggestion, because the RDAs, as we debated earlier, are unac...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 678 c715-6 (Link to this contribution) The noble Viscount raises some interesting questions. On the Minister’s reply about guidance and dir...
Lord Bach | 678 c716 (Link to this contribution) The noble Viscount has made an important point and has given the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, a chan...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 678 c717-8 (Link to this contribution) Clause 26 provides for the transfer of property rights and liabilities, covering matters such as lan...
Baroness Byford | 678 c717 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 260:"Page 9, line 12, leave out paragraph (c)." The noble Baroness said: Here w...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 678 c718 (Link to this contribution) I was less perplexed with the noble Baroness than with whether I could work out the answer.
Baroness Byford | 678 c718 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for her response, but I am not confident. I understand that English Nature is c...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 678 c718-9 (Link to this contribution) I fully understand the noble Baroness’s concern that too little information is available. That is be...
Baroness Byford | 678 c718 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that comment. Bits of the Countryside Agency may well be transferred, although aga...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 678 c719 (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment at which to resume the House. May I suggest that the Committee not b...
Lord Renton of Mount Harry | 678 c705 (Link to this contribution) had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 231A:"Page 48, line 20, at end insert—" ““...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 678 c704-5 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may mention the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Renton of Mount Harry, with ...
Lord Judd | 678 c706-7 (Link to this contribution) I am perplexed by the amendment. We want to ensure that the best possible people are on the board. M...
Baroness Byford | 678 c705-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 235:"Page 49, line 11, leave out ““pensions,””" The noble Baroness said: We ret...
Earl Peel | 678 c707 (Link to this contribution) I have not disagreed with the noble Lord, Lord Judd, so far in our debates, but on this occasion I d...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 678 c701-3 (Link to this contribution) I was about to declare a past interest as a member of local authorities for nearly 27 years, with 20...
Duke of Montrose | 678 c703 (Link to this contribution) I should be most grateful if the noble Baroness would give way for a second. As noble Lords can see,...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 678 c703-4 (Link to this contribution) I shall come to Amendment No. 232 later if the noble Duke will be patient. With regard to Amendment...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 678 c704 (Link to this contribution) I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington, meant to say ““the noble Baroness, Lady Miller””.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 678 c710 (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 236 would remove the Secretary of State’s power to appoint the CRC’s first chief execu...
Duke of Montrose | 678 c710 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 236:"Page 49, line 27, leave out sub-paragraph (3)." The noble Duke said: Once ...
Baroness Byford | 678 c709-10 (Link to this contribution) The Minister and I are in agreement on that. I do not have any difficulty there. It still raises a q...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 678 c709 (Link to this contribution) I try to help the noble Baroness; forgive me if I get it wrong. It is not envisaged that board membe...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 678 c709 (Link to this contribution) Forgive me; perhaps even we do not get a true cross-representation of society.
Baroness Byford | 678 c709 (Link to this contribution) I cannot agree with the Minister’s last comment. When we touched upon the point made earlier by the...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 678 c708-9 (Link to this contribution) I fear that I had not noticed that the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, had sought certain information i...
Earl Peel | 678 c709 (Link to this contribution) No one is suggesting that anybody should be out of pocket. However, if Members of your Lordships’ Ho...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 678 c707 (Link to this contribution) This is a serious issue. I understand what the noble Lord, Lord Judd, is saying, and that for reason...
Lord Cameron of Dillington | 678 c712 (Link to this contribution) My reading of the clause is slightly different. I think that not stipulating what the CRC shall publ...
Lord Carter | 678 c712 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the noble Baroness will not find it patronising if I say that I agree with her. Since th...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 678 c712-3 (Link to this contribution) We are expecting the CRC to be an independent body operating at arm’s length from government. Theref...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 678 c711 (Link to this contribution) I am rather surprised that the noble Duke has raised this matter because the accounts provision is a...
Duke of Montrose | 678 c711 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for her reply and her contention that this is a standard practice. Perhap...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 678 c711-2 (Link to this contribution) had given notice of her intention to move Amendment No. 249:"Page 7, line 26, leave out paragraph (a...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 678 c712 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 256:"Page 8, line 2, leave out ““may”” and insert ““shall””" The noble Baroness...
Duke of Montrose | 678 c710 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for her reply. Perhaps this is one way in which the Government are trying to ov...
Lord Bach | 678 c710 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 239:"Page 49, line 37, leave out ““applies”” and insert ““can apply””" On Quest...
Duke of Montrose | 678 c711 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 240:"Page 51, line 18, leave out sub-paragraph (2)." The noble Duke said: I rem...
Lord Carter | 678 c666 (Link to this contribution) I think that is because those Bills do not include organisations that need direction from the Secret...
Lord Bach | 678 c666 (Link to this contribution) I suspect that this answer will not give much satisfaction to the noble Viscount or the noble Earl. ...
Viscount Eccles | 678 c666-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for his interpretation of the situation. As noble Lords will have noti...
Lord Bach | 678 c662-3 (Link to this contribution) These three amendments relate to the power of the Secretary of State to give Natural England guidanc...
Duke of Montrose | 678 c663-4 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reassurance. We could see a problem if we suggested so many days, or s...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 678 c664 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his reply, and noble Lords who have spoken in this short debate. I am glad ...
Viscount Eccles | 678 c664-5 (Link to this contribution) In opposing the Question that Clause 16 stand part of the Bill, I wish to find out how the power to ...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 678 c665 (Link to this contribution) The noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, eloquently puts some of the reservations I have been expressing thr...
Lord Bach | 678 c665-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, for having raised this subject. Clause 16 does not...
Earl Peel | 678 c666 (Link to this contribution) I think I am right in saying that my noble friend, who has clearly done extensive research on these ...
Lord Renton of Mount Harry | 678 c676-8 (Link to this contribution) I remind Members of the Committee of the interests that I declared last week, in our debate on Wedne...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 678 c667-8 (Link to this contribution) It is with some excitement that we move to Chapter 2. I am sure the Minister will agree that we have...
Lord Bach | 678 c668-9 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness mentioned the Select Committee. I think that she meant the Standing Committee on ...
Lord Boston of Faversham | 678 c667 (Link to this contribution) The Question is that Clause 17 stand part of the Bill. In view of the groupings, I should at this st...
Bishop of Exeter | 678 c671-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, yesterday it was my privilege to introduce in the Church of England’s General Synod a repo...
Lord Cameron of Dillington | 678 c673-6 (Link to this contribution) This is a large group of amendments which go to the kernel of the Bill, so I apologise in advance fo...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 678 c669 (Link to this contribution) That is a very useful correction and I am grateful to the Minister for that. So there is a question...
Lord Carter | 678 c669-71 (Link to this contribution) This is an interesting debate on the amendments in the group led by the clause stand part debate. I ...
Lord Cameron of Dillington | 678 c681 (Link to this contribution) I feel that I should respond to certain questions put to me. I thank noble Lords who have taken part...
Lord Cameron of Dillington | 678 c681 (Link to this contribution) I have instructions in front of me that say that I am allowed to speak.
Lord Carter | 678 c681 (Link to this contribution) We are in Committee. It is perfectly in order.
Lord Grantchester | 678 c679 (Link to this contribution) I support Amendments Nos. 242 and 255 and underline the arguments already made that Clause 17 should...
Lord Judd | 678 c679-80 (Link to this contribution) I hope that my noble friend will consider that Amendment No. 244 helps the Government by putting som...
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 678 c680 (Link to this contribution) I shall make a brief intervention of a rather paradoxical nature. The noble Lord, Lord Cameron, and ...
Lord Nickson | 678 c680-1 (Link to this contribution) I hesitate to speak because I was not able to be present or take part at Second Reading. I will be e...
Earl Peel | 678 c678-9 (Link to this contribution) If we are to have a CRC, it must be totally independent. That is the key. The noble Lord, Lord Haski...
Baroness Byford | 678 c689 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps, following my noble friend’s question, the Minister will tell us whether the Government have...
Lord Bach | 678 c689 (Link to this contribution) I think that we have cut down the possible locations for the CRC to a fairly small number, but I am ...
Lord Bach | 678 c688-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for reminding me of his question. He will not be surprised to hear t...
Lord Bach | 678 c688 (Link to this contribution) A silk purse out of a sow’s ear. I took that as a compliment and return it to him on this occasion, ...
Lord Renton of Mount Harry | 678 c688 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his most kind comments. I hope that he will answer this before he moves on,...
Lord Bach | 678 c686-8 (Link to this contribution) I thank all Members of the Committee who have spoken. This has been as good a debate as one could ha...
Baroness Byford | 678 c682-5 (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords who have spoken. Because we are working slightly in reverse and some of us h...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 678 c681-2 (Link to this contribution) I did not mention my other amendments in this group during my speech on whether the clause should st...
Lord Bach | 678 c689-92 (Link to this contribution) It certainly will be, and I shall make sure that that is done at the earliest possible opportunity. ...
Lord Bach | 678 c692-3 (Link to this contribution) Indeed it will. The CRC will look at it also within the context of sustainable development. I think ...
Earl Peel | 678 c692 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may seek an explanation from the Minister on what he said about the CRC’s environmental ro...
Lord Bach | 678 c693 (Link to this contribution) We would argue that the term ““relevant persons”” of course includes all those who live in the count...
Baroness Byford | 678 c693 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. As this is the Committee stage, it is quite appropriat...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 678 c693-4 (Link to this contribution) This has been a very informative and interesting debate, and I thank all those who have spoken. I es...
Lord Bach | 678 c689 (Link to this contribution) Of course that will affect the cost. That is why I did not try to tell the noble Lord what the costs...
Lord Renton of Mount Harry | 678 c689 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to pursue the matter any further at the moment, but once it has been decided where the...
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 678 c699-700 (Link to this contribution) I support Amendment No. 231A in the name of my noble friend Lord Renton of Mount Harry, for what I a...
Lord Cameron of Dillington | 678 c698-9 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to all the amendments in the group in the order in which they appear on the Groupings ...
Lord Renton of Mount Harry | 678 c697-8 (Link to this contribution) I seem to have managed to insert Amendment No. 231A between the Liberal Front Bench and my own Front...
Duke of Montrose | 678 c696-7 (Link to this contribution) I wish to speak to Amendments Nos. 227, 229, 230 and 232. With the leave of the Committee, I will al...
Lord Renton of Mount Harry | 678 c701 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness appears to be arguing that because one good idea might lead to other good ideas s...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 678 c700-1 (Link to this contribution) I could not possibly follow the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, down the road of the g...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 678 c695-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 226:"Page 48, line 12, leave out ““appointed by the Secretary of State”” and ins...
Bishop of Exeter | 678 c696 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, through Amendment No. 228, raises an interesting and important poin...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 678 c694-5 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry if I got the wrong amendment numbers. I am referring to my amendments dealing with the RD...
Lord Bach | 678 c660 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that I do not have very much to say on this issue except to remind the Committee that th...
Baroness Byford | 678 c659-60 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her comments. In earlier debates I asked a range of question...
Lord Bach | 678 c661 (Link to this contribution) Yes, they are. The noble Baroness is right about the Rural Development Service, which is a core part...
Baroness Byford | 678 c660-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord. I ask him again to tell the Committee whether currently English Nat...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 678 c659 (Link to this contribution) The Question whether this clause shall stand part takes us to the part of the Bill that envisages th...
Lord Bach | 678 c649-59 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Mov...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 678 c661 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 206:"Page 6, line 16, after ““must”” insert ““by order””" The noble Baroness sa...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 678 c661 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his reply. As he says, this way of funding bodies has been custom and pract...
Viscount Eccles | 678 c661-2 (Link to this contribution) I very much support the amendment moved by the noble Baroness. It is possibly a more complete way of...
Duke of Montrose | 678 c715 (Link to this contribution) As the Committee can probably tell from our discussion on the previous amendment, we are of a simila...
Viscount Eccles | 678 c707-8 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can offer personal experience. For a time I had a pensionable post in the public sector as...
Lord Bach | 678 c667 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for giving way. I will do my best to answer those questions. I have already s...
Lord Cameron of Dillington | 678 c681 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Renton, asked me what the CRC would add compared with the Countryside Agency. A...
Baroness Byford | 678 c689 (Link to this contribution) That, too, will affect the cost, because the figure that was given to my noble friend probably does ...
Duke of Montrose | 678 c662 (Link to this contribution) Our Amendment No. 216 is grouped with this amendment. Here, I dare say we are touching on the whole ...
Viscount Eccles | 678 c716-7 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for how he replied to the questions that I put. The famous case on this matter ...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 678 c694 (Link to this contribution) I wonder if I might assist the noble Baroness. I have just noticed that she referred to Amendments N...

Subjects

Accountability
Biodiversity
Advisory services
Environment protection
Functions
Grants
Joint Nature Conservation Committee
Pay
Powers
Public appointments
Pensions
Property transfer
Nature conservation
Staff
Non-departmental public bodies
Regional planning and development
Wildlife
Rural areas
Commission for Rural Communities
Natural England

Legislation

Natural Environment and Rural Communities Bill 2005-06

Link

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