Compensation Bill [HL]
About these Parliamentary proceedings
Reference
676 c183-244GC Session
2005-06Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand CommitteeRelated items
Compensation Bill (HL). Explanatory notes HL Bill 35-EN also published
Wednesday, 2 November 2005
Bills
House of Lords
Wednesday, 2 November 2005
Bills
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Lucas | 676 c225GC (Link to this contribution)
had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 10:"Page 1, line 11, at end insert—"
““( ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c224-5GC (Link to this contribution)
I hope that Members of the Committee will now understand that this amendment seeks to produce an acc...
Show all contributions (107)
Viscount Eccles | 676 c236-7GC (Link to this contribution)
I say to the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, that the problem is that Clause 1 does not attempt to do any o...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c202-6GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 3:"Page 1, line 8, leave out paragraphs (a) and (b) and insert—"
““(a) preve...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c217-8GC (Link to this contribution)
Not to a non-lawyer, you have to understand. The House of Lords made the point that there was no jus...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c218GC (Link to this contribution)
This has been a useful development triggered by my noble friend Lord Lucas. If I recall the case to ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c215-6GC (Link to this contribution)
That was a tour de force by the Minister, who cited case after case. I was left with the clear impre...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c183-6GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 1:"Page 1, line 4, after ““negligence”” insert ““or breach of statutory duty””"
...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c243-4GC (Link to this contribution)
I am sorry I did not address that part effectively. On children, for instance, a child is necessaril...
Lord Lucas | 676 c240-1GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 14:"After Clause 1, insert the following new clause—"
““EXCLUSION OF LIABILITY...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c225GC (Link to this contribution)
Of course, although I am not entirely convinced that my letter persuaded him not to move it. It was ...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c225GC (Link to this contribution)
I see my noble friend Lord Greenway’s name. Although the amendment is not being moved, could I have ...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c226GC (Link to this contribution)
This amendment looks extremely sensible. If someone willingly accepts a risk, that is it. He or she ...
Lord Lucas | 676 c220-1GC (Link to this contribution)
had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 8:"Page 1, line 11, at end insert ““, or"
...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c219-20GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 5:"Page 1, line 8, leave out ““desirable”” and insert ““legitimate sporting, rec...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c220GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Earl for moving the amendment. It goes quite a long way to capturing what...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c222-3GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Lord. I said earlier that I sit at his feet in terms of his knowledge and...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c231GC (Link to this contribution)
No, I am not going to correct the noble Lord. I am responsible for the Law Commission in my departme...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c231-3GC (Link to this contribution)
As I said in the debate on one of the earlier amendments, the law has got it about right. I am not s...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c233-5GC (Link to this contribution)
I am very grateful to the noble Lord for his support in the idea of referring this matter to the Law...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c237-9GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for the chance to go through once more some of the issues that are important to us in ...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c239GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the Minister. It is apparent, for instance from what the noble Viscount, Lord Eccle...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c239GC (Link to this contribution)
It was a school trip.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c226-7GC (Link to this contribution)
As the noble Lord says, this raises an interesting point. I hope he will not mind if I say that if t...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c227GC (Link to this contribution)
It was my orchard.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c230GC (Link to this contribution)
That is a factor that the courts would and do take into account in individual cases, but its relevan...
Lord Skelmersdale | 676 c230GC (Link to this contribution)
Before my noble friend responds, there is an extremely serious point in the second half of the amend...
Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 676 c206GC (Link to this contribution)
I appreciate that this is Grand Committee and we do not take votes, but for the record I have to say...
Lord Skelmersdale | 676 c210GC (Link to this contribution)
My noble friend really should explain how on earth falling out of a tree can come under the heading ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 676 c206-7GC (Link to this contribution)
In Amendment No. 13, my noble friend Lord Hunt made a brave attempt to elucidate the phrase ““desira...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c207-9GC (Link to this contribution)
I ought perhaps to explain to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, that I was not really meaning to ...
Viscount Eccles | 676 c201GC (Link to this contribution)
I wonder whether I have got the Minister’s reply clear. It has been said that the clause will not am...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c201GC (Link to this contribution)
The bit I do not understand in the Minister’s reply is that if it ““shall”” be taken into account an...
Lord Skelmersdale | 676 c200GC (Link to this contribution)
Should it not always be the case that personal responsibility, when an accident happens and a compen...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c202GC (Link to this contribution)
I am in complete agreement with my noble friends Lord Skelmersdale, Lord Lucas, Lord Eccles and Lord...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c216-7GC (Link to this contribution)
I can assure the Committee that the noble Baroness has considered all sorts of things in the course ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c216GC (Link to this contribution)
Before the Minister responds, perhaps I can recap. The noble Lord has made a very important point. I...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c218GC (Link to this contribution)
Not only for the benefit of the noble Baroness, I think.
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c218GC (Link to this contribution)
That was drummed into me during the time that I spent at French universities. We need to think about...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c218-9GC (Link to this contribution)
I agree with the noble Lord about Bolton v Stone. A woman who lived near the cricket ground was hit ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c212GC (Link to this contribution)
I am not sure that the Minister has yet given us the name, title or reference of that particular cas...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c212-3GC (Link to this contribution)
I intended to do so. I was merely breaking up the way I dealt with the cases so that I started by gi...
Lord Lucas | 676 c187-8GC (Link to this contribution)
I wanted to take the chance of the first amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, to lay out...
Lord Chorley | 676 c187GC (Link to this contribution)
I do not want to make a Second Reading speech either, although I was not able to take part in the Se...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c196GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Lord, although I am always nervous when we stray into discussing other gr...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c194GC (Link to this contribution)
That is not my understanding of how it would work. The advice I have been given is that it would not...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c193GC (Link to this contribution)
It worries me that if the Minister, with an entire department behind her, cannot work out which stat...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c189GC (Link to this contribution)
It might be helpful if I make a short intervention to explain my outlook on the amendments in Part 1...
Lord Brougham and Vaux | 676 c244GC (Link to this contribution)
The Committee stands adjourned until Tuesday next.
Lord Lucas | 676 c242-3GC (Link to this contribution)
Yes, that entirely answers the first part. I tabled the amendment in the main to listen to the noble...
Lord Lucas | 676 c244GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. We are down to subsection (2) which does not involve c...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c225-6GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 11:"Page 1, line 11, at end insert—"
““( ) In considering whether an activ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c223-4GC (Link to this contribution)
That is phraseology that I have learnt. I do not dispute what the noble Lord seeks to do. That is an...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c223GC (Link to this contribution)
But the noble Baroness will understand that this is a disjunctive addition. Therefore, it does not a...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c221-2GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 9:"Page 1, line 11, at end insert ““, or"
( ) produce consequences that th...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c231GC (Link to this contribution)
I should like to accept the Minister’s offer to refer the matter to the Law Commission, since we hav...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c235-6GC (Link to this contribution)
I shall speak to this question, because I think it is essential that the clause stand part. I have t...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c227GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 12:"Page 1, line 11, at end insert—"
““( ) In considering whether an activ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c229-30GC (Link to this contribution)
It will not surprise anyone to hear that my familiarity with the Occupiers’ Liability Act 1984 is li...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c227-8GC (Link to this contribution)
I refuse to eat the apple that has just been passed to me.
On the back of the last debate, it is im...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c210GC (Link to this contribution)
It covers the planting of the tree in the first place and the type of tree.
Lord Lucas | 676 c206GC (Link to this contribution)
I see a great deal of attraction in the phrase ““public benefit”” in that it is understood; I find i...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c197-8GC (Link to this contribution)
The key question arising from this debate is: is it a desirable activity to introduce Clause 1? I am...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c201-2GC (Link to this contribution)
An aide mémoire is an interesting description. I am trying to say that the purpose of Clause 1 is to...
Lord Lucas | 676 c200-1GC (Link to this contribution)
Does not the clause change the law? Perhaps I misunderstand how it works, but I believe that where t...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c199-200GC (Link to this contribution)
I am always interested in ““may”” to ““shall”” debates, because in my ministerial experience they ar...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c199GC (Link to this contribution)
If I had been a bit more organised a couple of days ago I would have added my name to all the amendm...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c217GC (Link to this contribution)
This is called a no-win situation in any place other than your Lordships’ House. The courts make val...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c217GC (Link to this contribution)
Removing the concept of desirability would be absolutely disastrous. The whole point behind the Toml...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c211-2GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Lord in his second bite of the cherry—not the tree. Noble Lords will be t...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c213GC (Link to this contribution)
I apologise. I am not sure whether ““public benefit”” would capture that; it might, but I am not sur...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c213-4GC (Link to this contribution)
It seems to me that we are now moving so far from the original motivation for introducing Clause 1, ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c213GC (Link to this contribution)
If the Minister will reflect for a moment, she will see that the amendment refers to public benefit ...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c186-7GC (Link to this contribution)
I should like to say a few words in the spirit of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. I must apologise for mi...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c194-6GC (Link to this contribution)
We are reaching an important part of the discussion on the Bill. I am still confused by one or two o...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c193-4GC (Link to this contribution)
That is absolutely not what I said. I said that if one puts statutory duty into this clause, it requ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c189-93GC (Link to this contribution)
I begin by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for his kind words at the beginning of the debate and...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c239GC (Link to this contribution)
I do not think that Dubai is dangerous. Not all the Middle East is dangerous. That is almost like Am...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c244GC (Link to this contribution)
This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until Tuesday at 2 pm.
Lord Goodhart | 676 c239-40GC (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps small parts of the Middle East are not dangerous, but far too much of it is. I was very plea...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c241-2GC (Link to this contribution)
One of the great joys of being a Minister is that sometimes you get an amendment where you can talk ...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c241GC (Link to this contribution)
I agree with the amendment. Personally, I would love to see a law of common sense that says that som...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c225GC (Link to this contribution)
No offence was taken whatever. I count it as a great honour.
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c225GC (Link to this contribution)
I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c224GC (Link to this contribution)
I am very grateful for that. I am slightly nervous about it because I have been at pains to stress t...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c220GC (Link to this contribution)
I entirely agree with what the noble Baroness has just said. I do not think the words are ideal, par...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c219GC (Link to this contribution)
Faced with that challenge, I can do no better than beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c224GC (Link to this contribution)
It would be very much up to one party—in this case the defendant—to persuade the court that there wo...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c239GC (Link to this contribution)
There may have been other reasons for not travelling to the Middle East.
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c227GC (Link to this contribution)
This has been a very helpful debate. I am grateful to the Minister for her response and I beg leave ...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c229GC (Link to this contribution)
I have not thought about any of the implications for the Occupiers’ Liability Act and things like th...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c230-1GC (Link to this contribution)
This has been a very helpful opportunity to consider the position of children. I take the point made...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c210GC (Link to this contribution)
I want to respond to a couple of points that have been made before the Minister replies. First, I as...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c210GC (Link to this contribution)
Does this apply to Cupressus leylandii?
Lord Goodhart | 676 c209-10GC (Link to this contribution)
The picture of the cow and the fat lawyer, to which the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, referred, was for m...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c198-9GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 2:"Page 1, line 4, leave out ““may”” and insert ““shall””"
The noble Lord said:...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c217GC (Link to this contribution)
It is a very well known case.
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c210-1GC (Link to this contribution)
Many would contend that such planting is not environmental improvement, but I think that those who p...
Lord Lucas | 676 c216GC (Link to this contribution)
Before my noble friend withdraws the amendment, and on the basis of what has been said, I wonder whe...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c214-5GC (Link to this contribution)
I know the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, would rather not have Clause 1 because he has made that clear....
Lord Elton | 676 c183GC (Link to this contribution)
There are two things of which I am required to remind the Committee. One is that Members of the Comm...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c188GC (Link to this contribution)
It is Amendment No. 20.
Lord Goodhart | 676 c194GC (Link to this contribution)
Clause 1 requires the court to determine,"““whether the defendant should have taken particular steps...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c197GC (Link to this contribution)
Indeed. Because Clause 1 is, in a sense, dealing with that perception, it draws attention to these i...
Lord Chorley | 676 c196-7GC (Link to this contribution)
I do not want to prolong the discussion. I agree very much with the noble Baroness—we do not want to...
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