UK Parliament / Open data

Citizenship (Armed Forces) Bill

Debate on bills on Friday, 13 September 2013, in the House of Commons, led by Jonathan Lord. The answering member was Mark Harper.
Second reading. Agreed to on question.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

567 cc1279-1332 

Session

2013-14

Department

Home Office

Legislative stage

Second reading

Chamber / Committee

House of Commons chamber
Citizenship (Armed Forces) Bill 2013-14
Wednesday, 19 June 2013
Bills
House of Commons
Deposited Paper DEP2013-1779
Friday, 13 September 2013
Deposited papers
House of Commons
Citizenship (Armed Forces) Bill
Wednesday, 11 September 2013
Research briefings

Proceeding contributions

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1281 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

The Bill is brief and to the point—...

Edward Leigh | 567 c1281 (Link to this contribution)

I have been trying to understand the Bill. Is the key moment the precise moment at the end of the...


Show all contributions (166)
Jonathan Lord | 567 c1281 (Link to this contribution)

The key point is that under the 1981 Act a foreigner or Commonwealth citizen applying for natural...

Mel Stride | 567 c1281 (Link to this contribution)

I congratulate my hon. Friend on bringing this important Bill before the House. Does he know how ...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1281 (Link to this contribution)

It is indeed an anomaly. Currently, more than 9,000 foreign and Commonwealth persons are serving ...

Mel Stride | 567 c1282 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend refers, rightly, to the sense of discrimination that some members of our armed for...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1282 (Link to this contribution)

I am reminded by people with much more experience in the House than I have that it is unwise to a...

Christopher Chope | 567 c1282 (Link to this contribution)

As I understand it, the Government said in the Queen’s Speech that they would introduce an immigr...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1282 (Link to this contribution)

The key point is that the Bill would remedy a simple problem. I know, from having talked to the M...

Guy Opperman | 567 c1282 (Link to this contribution)

I congratulate my hon. Friend on introducing the Bill, as it covers an issue that we should clear...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1282 (Link to this contribution)

I am pleased to say that most of the major Army charities, which do such wonderful work supportin...

Christopher Chope | 567 c1282 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry to return to my earlier intervention, but if this change is supported by the Governmen...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1283 (Link to this contribution)

I think I answered that point clearly before. I am very happy with the narrow definition of the B...

Harriett Baldwin | 567 c1283 (Link to this contribution)

I hope that the Bill will make progress, but can my hon. Friend make it clear that when we are ta...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1283 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. That is absolutely the case. It is my understanding that ...

Christopher Chope | 567 c1283 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend says that an immigration Bill is a matter for the Government, but it seems, by the...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1283 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes a fair point—the Bill has the complete support of the Government. It is also...

Margot James | 567 c1283 (Link to this contribution)

I congratulate my hon. Friend on introducing the Bill. Can he reassure me that the Government sup...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1284 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes a valuable point. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s speech, but he is...

Mel Stride | 567 c1284 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is making a powerful case. I am gratified that a number of military charities clea...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1284 (Link to this contribution)

I am not aware that any charities, military or otherwise, are against the Bill. I am sure that if...

Christopher Chope | 567 c1284 (Link to this contribution)

Will the Bill have retrospective effect?

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1284 (Link to this contribution)

The Bill will apply to cases from now on. By definition, those applying for citizenship under the...

Mel Stride | 567 c1284 (Link to this contribution)

Just to clarify, where an individual has fallen foul of the anomaly under the 1981 Act and has su...

Jonathan Lord | 567 cc1285-6 (Link to this contribution)

The Bill gives the Secretary of State more discretion than he has had hitherto, but we are trying...

Mel Stride | 567 c1286 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend rightly refers to the brave men and women in our armed forces in his constituency ...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1286 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes an important point. It is not just the citizens of this country who owe our ...

Harriett Baldwin | 567 c1286 (Link to this contribution)

This is an interesting anecdote. I am proud to have participated in the armed forces parliamentar...

John Bercow | 567 c1286 (Link to this contribution)

Order. The personal experience of the hon. Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin) is u...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1287 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to you, Mr Speaker. I am interested to hear of my hon. Friend’s experiences I was t...

Margot James | 567 c1287 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend has spoken powerfully about the sacrifices that our armed forces make and the way ...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1287 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my hon. Friend for that point, which she makes extremely well. The armed forces are at th...

Mel Stride | 567 c1287 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is being very generous in giving way. He is right to stress the dedication, excell...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1287 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes an excellent and important point.

I have invited the troops stationed ...

Christopher Chope | 567 c1288 (Link to this contribution)

Will my hon. Friend explain the ambit of the term “armed forces”? Will it, for example, cover the...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1288 (Link to this contribution)

It is my understanding that all those serving in the armed forces will come under the aegis of th...

Harriett Baldwin | 567 c1288 (Link to this contribution)

Will my hon. Friend clarify whether the Bill will cover members of the Army Reserve?

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1288 (Link to this contribution)

My understanding is that it would cover such people, but I look to the Minister to give us a litt...

Edward Leigh | 567 c1288 (Link to this contribution)

Will my hon. Friend clarify what will happen when the Bill has become an Act? Someone will have t...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1288 (Link to this contribution)

At that point, the person would follow the normal naturalisation process for citizenship. The key...

Edward Leigh | 567 c1288 (Link to this contribution)

I presume, though, that once they have done their five years and applied for naturalisation, they...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1288 (Link to this contribution)

I have a large amount of notes relating to the naturalisation process and all the disqualificatio...

Guy Opperman | 567 c1288 (Link to this contribution)

The key point is that time spent overseas has placed people at a disadvantage. The new legislatio...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1289 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for bringing us back to the key point of the Bill with a good loc...

Mark Harper | 567 c1289 (Link to this contribution)

I should like to assist the House on the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborou...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1289 (Link to this contribution)

We look forward to hearing the Minister later.

Margot James | 567 c1289 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry to bring my hon. Friend back to the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Gain...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1289 (Link to this contribution)

I hesitate to use up all our available time discussing the regulations. As I have said, I have no...

Mel Stride | 567 c1289 (Link to this contribution)

Is it not significant that when someone applying for naturalisation has not previously fallen fou...

Jonathan Lord | 567 cc1289-1290 (Link to this contribution)

I largely accept that point. The important thing is to ensure that our armed services personnel a...

Margot James | 567 c1290 (Link to this contribution)

I think my hon. Friend is being too modest. Although the changes are narrow in scope and in terms...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1290 (Link to this contribution)

I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention, with which I of course agree abs...

Guy Opperman | 567 c1290 (Link to this contribution)

Following what my hon. Friend the Member for Stourbridge (Margot James) said, does my hon. Friend...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1290 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, absolutely. The regiment, the battalion and the way in which our armed forces tend to be arr...

Mel Stride | 567 c1291 (Link to this contribution)

The terrible shock to which my hon. Friend refers is presumably exacerbated when someone who was ...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1291 (Link to this contribution)

I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. That is the key point to which this House needs to ad...

Christopher Chope | 567 c1291 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend describes a situation in which it seems as if almost everybody in the Welsh Guards...

Jonathan Lord | 567 cc1291-2 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. There are more than 9,000 foreign and Commonwealth per...

Margot James | 567 c1292 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend has covered the point I intended to make, but does he agree that, during the secon...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1292 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that excellent point. I entirely agree about the contribution...

Harriett Baldwin | 567 c1293 (Link to this contribution)

Will my hon. Friend clarify the territorial extent of the legislation, which the Bill refers to a...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1293 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that query. I can confirm that those are the places w...

Mel Stride | 567 c1293 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is making a powerful case for the Bill. On a narrow point, will he confirm that th...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1293 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, that is essentially the case, although I hope that when the Home Office or immigration offic...

Mel Stride | 567 c1293 (Link to this contribution)

In the same spirit of looking kindly at such circumstances, does my hon. Friend not feel that whe...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1293 (Link to this contribution)

I feel sure that that will indeed be the case.

The Bill will also cover members and former ...

Harriett Baldwin | 567 c1293 (Link to this contribution)

If my hon. Friend will forgive me for returning to the issue I raised earlier on the British over...

Jonathan Lord | 567 cc1293-4 (Link to this contribution)

I am happy to tell my hon. Friend that they would indeed be included, and I am grateful to her fo...

Guy Opperman | 567 c1294 (Link to this contribution)

Is this not all part of what the armed forces covenant is about? It is about a situation existing...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1294 (Link to this contribution)

That is the clear thrust of the Bill and the debate today. I hope that all Members listening will...

Edward Leigh | 567 cc1294-5 (Link to this contribution)

May I say what a pleasure it is to speak on this calm Friday morning, and what a pleasurable expe...

Mel Stride | 567 c1295 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is a learned and long-established Member of Parliament. I wonder whether he will a...

Edward Leigh | 567 cc1295-6 (Link to this contribution)

The short answer is that I do not know, but the Minister is sitting here, and no doubt he does kn...

Guy Opperman | 567 c1296 (Link to this contribution)

Is there not a distinction between the total number of overseas personnel in the armed forces and...

Edward Leigh | 567 cc1296-7 (Link to this contribution)

Of course. That is an obvious point.

I should like to hear a bit more from the Minister abo...

Guy Opperman | 567 c1297 (Link to this contribution)

I appreciate entirely the point my hon. Friend is making, but the implementation of the armed for...

Edward Leigh | 567 c1297 (Link to this contribution)

Of course. We all know that the task facing the Minister is extremely difficult and it is better ...

Edward Leigh | 567 c1298 (Link to this contribution)

I give way to my hon. Friend, who is an expert.

Mel Stride | 567 c1298 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way and for his very gracious and, if I may say so, rather perc...

Edward Leigh | 567 c1298 (Link to this contribution)

On Friday mornings, Members of Parliament naturally have many other things to do in their constit...

Harriett Baldwin | 567 c1298 (Link to this contribution)

As my hon. Friend was in the House when the 1981 Act was passed, can he remember the territorial ...

Edward Leigh | 567 c1299 (Link to this contribution)

You, Mr Speaker, must have immediately spotted this: I am sorry, but I misspoke as my hon. Friend...

Christopher Chope | 567 c1299 (Link to this contribution)

Is not the implication of this that somebody who has not set foot in this country for five years ...

Edward Leigh | 567 cc1299-1300 (Link to this contribution)

The Bill’s promoter is unavoidably absent from the Chamber for a few moments, but he will have to...

John Bercow | 567 c1300 (Link to this contribution)

Order. This is exceptionally cheeky on the part of the hon. Gentleman, and I feel sure, given the...

Edward Leigh | 567 cc1300-1 (Link to this contribution)

I know I was being cheeky, Mr Speaker, but I could not resist the opportunity to try to expound o...

Christopher Chope | 567 c1301 (Link to this contribution)

Will my hon. Friend comment on the concern, which I certainly have, that one of the perverse cons...

Edward Leigh | 567 c1301 (Link to this contribution)

As is often the case, my hon. Friend makes an intervention that just needs to be answered; we do ...

Harriett Baldwin | 567 c1301 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend think it would be appropriate, when targeting net migration into this country...

Edward Leigh | 567 c1301 (Link to this contribution)

That is a good point, and I think I may end on it, as it allows me to sum up what I have been try...

Harriett Baldwin | 567 cc1301-2 (Link to this contribution)

I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Jonathan Lord) on introducing this exc...

Guy Opperman | 567 c1302 (Link to this contribution)

On the 300th anniversary of the treaty of Utrecht, my hon. Friend has mentioned Gibraltar. She ma...

Harriett Baldwin | 567 cc1302-4 (Link to this contribution)

The question is whether those troops settled in Gibraltar and what the rules were for their natur...

Harriett Baldwin | 567 c1304 (Link to this contribution)

Shall I? In that case, here is another one.

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1304 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her support for the Bill. I was pleased to support her in her...

John Bercow | 567 c1304 (Link to this contribution)

Order. May I say to the hon. Lady that whatever the insatiable appetite that might or might not e...

Harriett Baldwin | 567 c1304 (Link to this contribution)

The enthusiasm and the accuracy with which I welcome the Bill are such that I want to hear confir...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1305 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend think that battles that were important to our nation’s past and influenced us...

Harriett Baldwin | 567 c1305 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend gives an excellent example of why he is so well-placed to introduce the Bill. It d...

Edward Leigh | 567 c1305 (Link to this contribution)

This is all rather absurd. Can one imagine such a situation when the Emperor Claudius allowed Rom...

Harriett Baldwin | 567 c1305 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps I am about to introduce a note of dissent into our discussions this morning. I think that...

John Bercow | 567 c1305 (Link to this contribution)

Order. I think that the point that the test that the Government envisage is in the hon. Lady’s mi...

Harriett Baldwin | 567 c1306 (Link to this contribution)

Mr Speaker, I shall have that speech of yours printed and engraved. It is so eloquent that I can ...

Guy Opperman | 567 c1306 (Link to this contribution)

May I draw my hon. Friend back to the Bill? Surely the point is that this country, whose virtues ...

Harriett Baldwin | 567 cc1306-7 (Link to this contribution)

My understanding is that he would have had to have been resident in the territories outlined in t...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1307 (Link to this contribution)

I am not sure how many Fijians in our armed forces are fluent in Scottish Gaelic, but I suspect n...

Harriett Baldwin | 567 c1307 (Link to this contribution)

I am proud to say that my grandmother spoke Scottish Gaelic fluently.

Harriett Baldwin | 567 cc1307-8 (Link to this contribution)

No. As a girl, I learned to say, “An t-Eilean Muileach, an t-eilean àghmhor”, which means, “The I...

Mel Stride | 567 c1308 (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin), ...

Guy Opperman | 567 c1309 (Link to this contribution)

I endorse entirely my hon. Friend’s comments, but I would go one step further. Although there may...

Mel Stride | 567 c1309 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my hon. Friend for making that extremely important point. We have the annual report on th...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1309 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my hon. Friend very much indeed for his strong support for the Bill, and for serving in C...

Mel Stride | 567 c1309 (Link to this contribution)

As I intimated earlier, I have never been a member of the armed forces, but I am acutely aware of...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1309 (Link to this contribution)

I am very grateful for my hon. Friend’s strong support and excellent speech, but can he help me? ...

Mel Stride | 567 c1310 (Link to this contribution)

I would be delighted to serve on the Public Bill Committee, subject to my availability—[Laughter....

Margot James | 567 cc1310-2 (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Central Devon (Mel Stride) and to reinfo...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1312 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend speaks well about the beneficial effects of the armed forces covenant and how the ...

Margot James | 567 cc1312-3 (Link to this contribution)

I have met many serving or retired members of our armed forces—I work with the Royal British Legi...

Guy Opperman | 567 cc1313-4 (Link to this contribution)

The Bill is about two of the most important issues that we in the House of Commons debate—namely,...

Mel Stride | 567 c1314 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes a powerful case for the Bill. Is it not just as significant that, as far as ...

Guy Opperman | 567 c1314 (Link to this contribution)

That is the case. We need to recognise that there is a rich tradition of this country working wit...

Diana Johnson | 567 cc1314-5 (Link to this contribution)

I congratulate the hon. Member for Woking (Jonathan Lord) on bringing this important issue before...

Harriett Baldwin | 567 c1315 (Link to this contribution)

I am delighted that the hon. Lady is alone in the Chamber in being able to answer that question s...

Diana Johnson | 567 cc1315-6 (Link to this contribution)

I will admit that I did.

To return to the subject of the Bill, I want to pay tribute to our...

Mark Harper | 567 cc1316-1320 (Link to this contribution)

It is a great pleasure to see you in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker. I had prepared only a brief...

Edward Leigh | 567 c1319 (Link to this contribution)

What does “settlement” mean? Say someone is married to a member of the armed forces and has been ...

Mark Harper | 567 cc1319-1321 (Link to this contribution)

The rules operate differently for the spouse. When serving, the service person is not subject to ...

Christopher Chope | 567 c1321 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend might be going on to say this, but there is already a provision on the statute boo...

Mark Harper | 567 cc1321-2 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend appears to be working seamlessly in tandem with me, because if I turn over the pag...

Harriett Baldwin | 567 c1322 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the Minister for giving way and for beginning to answer some of the questions that I rais...

Mark Harper | 567 c1322 (Link to this contribution)

The question is not so much where the person physically is when they apply, but what their intent...

Harriett Baldwin | 567 c1322 (Link to this contribution)

I know that I am being obtuse, but I do not understand what the purpose is, then, of having all t...

Mark Harper | 567 c1323 (Link to this contribution)

I would never accuse my hon. Friend of being obtuse. She and I had a great exchange on her previo...

Harriett Baldwin | 567 c1323 (Link to this contribution)

What I am really trying to clarify is that language acquisition takes place in a specific part of...

Mark Harper | 567 cc1323-4 (Link to this contribution)

The Secretary of State has the ability to waive the requirement if someone’s physical or mental c...

Harriett Baldwin | 567 c1324 (Link to this contribution)

Is the Minister saying that although the pass mark for both tests has remained at 75%, about 75% ...

Mark Harper | 567 c1324 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is spot on.

I have now been inspired so let me answer my hon. Friend’s quest...

Mark Harper | 567 c1324 (Link to this contribution)

I had hoped that that was a good explanation.

Harriett Baldwin | 567 c1324 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the Minister for his excellent explanation. It answers the question I asked my hon. Frien...

Mark Harper | 567 cc1324-6 (Link to this contribution)

I heard my hon. Friend ask that question of my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and I thin...

Christopher Chope | 567 c1326 (Link to this contribution)

I raised the issue of retrospection. As a result of the retrospective nature of the Bill, how man...

Mark Harper | 567 c1326 (Link to this contribution)

It is difficult to be precise, because we do not know how many foreign and commonwealth members o...

Mark Harper | 567 c1326 (Link to this contribution)

As it is my hon. Friend’s Bill, I will take his intervention first before listening to the respon...

Jonathan Lord | 567 c1326 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps my intervention will pre-empt a further one. My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (...

Mark Harper | 567 c1326 (Link to this contribution)

It is helpful. Before I give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch, it is worth sayin...

Christopher Chope | 567 c1326 (Link to this contribution)

My concern was about eligibility: I did not ask how many people would take advantage of the Bill....

Mark Harper | 567 cc1327-8 (Link to this contribution)

The difficulty with answering that question is that, technically, everyone who is a foreign or Co...

Baroness Primarolo | 567 c1328 (Link to this contribution)

Order. I would just say to the Minister that of course the covenant provides important context, b...

Mark Harper | 567 cc1328-9 (Link to this contribution)

I am conscious of that, Madam Deputy Speaker. I do not have a lengthy list. It is a short list an...

Christopher Chope | 567 c1329 (Link to this contribution)

I think the Minister is nearing the end of his remarks, but before he does, can he address my que...

Mark Harper | 567 cc1329-1330 (Link to this contribution)

Without tempting Madam Deputy Speaker to chastise me, what I would say is that if my hon. Friend ...

Baroness Primarolo | 567 c1330 (Link to this contribution)

Order. I am rather surprised to see the hon. Gentleman standing. He has not been in the Chamber f...

Christopher Chope | 567 c1330 (Link to this contribution)

If you are inviting me to comment on what you just said—

Baroness Primarolo | 567 c1330 (Link to this contribution)

I am not inviting you, Mr Chope. My question was rhetorical in its nature. I am nudging you gentl...

Christopher Chope | 567 c1330 (Link to this contribution)

I did speak to you in your position in the Chair to indicate that I would seek to catch your eye ...

Baroness Primarolo | 567 cc1330-1 (Link to this contribution)

Indeed, and I am sure that you would not wish any discourtesy to me as the occupant of the Chair ...

Christopher Chope | 567 c1331 (Link to this contribution)

I feel a heavy weight on my shoulders, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am grateful for your indulgence.

Jonathan Lord | 567 cc1331-2 (Link to this contribution)

I saw the Minister nodding vigorously as my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) wa...

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