UK Parliament / Open data

Canterbury City Council Bill

Debate on bills on Thursday, 14 January 2010, in the House of Commons, led by Julian Brazier. The answering member was Kevin Brennan.
Canterbury City Council Bill. Third reading debate. Agreed to on division (99 votes to 11). Debated with Nottingham City Council Bill, also agreed to on division (85 votes to 10).

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

503 c897-932 

Session

2009-10

Legislative stage

Third reading

Chamber / Committee

House of Commons chamber

Related items

Nottingham City Council Bill. Petition deposited by Sharpe Pritchard (Vote).
Tuesday, 27 November 2007
Bills
House of Commons
Canterbury City Council Bill. Petition deposited by Sharpe Pritchard (Vote).
Tuesday, 27 November 2007
Bills
House of Commons

Proceeding contributions

Julian Brazier | 503 c898 (Link to this contribution) Yes, but it is the last time I shall give way, because I have almost finished what I wish to say.
Peter Bone | 503 c898 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend give way briefly on that point?

Show all contributions (138)
Julian Brazier | 503 c898 (Link to this contribution) I take full responsibility for that matter; the Bill went through rather speedily and I missed it at...
Julian Brazier | 503 c897-8 (Link to this contribution) In a word, no. The promoters of the Bill do not believe that we are close to Government legislation ...
Christopher Chope | 503 c898 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that concession public. As he rightly says, we had an exc...
Julian Brazier | 503 c897 (Link to this contribution) This Bill was first deposited in November 2007, and we have had three separate Second Readings, and ...
Christopher Chope | 503 c897 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend confirm that, since 2007, a lot of water has passed under Westminster bridge, an...
Speaker | 503 c897 (Link to this contribution) Before I call the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier), let me inform Members that, in line with...
Speaker | 503 c900 (Link to this contribution) Order. Let me try to be of assistance to the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Bone). Whether he l...
Speaker | 503 c901 (Link to this contribution) Order. Exactly, and therefore my ruling is valid.
Peter Bone | 503 c900 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I apologise. I was somewhat misguided by the House of Co...
Peter Bone | 503 c898 (Link to this contribution) This is an important point. As the transcript of the Unopposed Bill Committee proceedings shows, thi...
Julian Brazier | 503 c898 (Link to this contribution) I have no idea whether they have changed their mind, but they have given me an absolute assurance, i...
Kevin Brennan | 503 c898 (Link to this contribution) I should point out to the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier) that if the Whip is nodding, it i...
Julian Brazier | 503 c898 (Link to this contribution) Let me make it clear that no discourtesy was intended and that I was just alluding to the fact.
Kevin Brennan | 503 c899 (Link to this contribution) I acknowledge that the hon. Gentleman is always courteous. The Government understand the desire of ...
Peter Bone | 503 c899-900 (Link to this contribution) The Minister's speech was most helpful. He talked about what I believe should happen: we should have...
Philip Davies | 503 c900 (Link to this contribution) Following on from that, does my hon. Friend not agree that across the total of six Bills, these two—...
Peter Bone | 503 c900 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention. He is quite correct. There would be a legitima...
Tony Lloyd | 503 c903 (Link to this contribution) This may come as a surprise to the hon. Gentleman, but even on occasions of Government business sign...
Peter Bone | 503 c903 (Link to this contribution) My point was that when the Bills were debated and divided on, significantly fewer than half of all M...
Tony Lloyd | 503 c903 (Link to this contribution) I had best adhere carefully to the strictures that you place upon me, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and allow ...
Peter Bone | 503 c902 (Link to this contribution) I probably made the mistake of not raising a point of order at the beginning of the debate because I...
Christopher Chope | 503 c902 (Link to this contribution) People are in the mood for making abject apologies. My hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr. Br...
Peter Bone | 503 c901-2 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. There is a particular issue that one of my constituents has asked me...
Speaker | 503 c902 (Link to this contribution) Order. I do not want to have to repeat myself, as I suspect the hon. Member is starting to do in cer...
Tony Lloyd | 503 c902-3 (Link to this contribution) I rise to support the Bill that the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier) has sponsored and the N...
Speaker | 503 c902 (Link to this contribution) Order. That is entirely a procedural matter, and the hon. Gentleman leads me into the risk that I ma...
Peter Bone | 503 c902 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, Mr. Deputy Speaker; I certainly would not do that. I have been asked by a constituent to co...
Christopher Chope | 503 c919 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, Mr. Deputy Speaker; perhaps because I am a little hoarse my intonation is inadequate in ...
Speaker | 503 c919 (Link to this contribution) Order. If I believed this to be the hon. Gentleman's peroration, I would be prepared to reckon that ...
Speaker | 503 c917 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) invoked proportionality in a different context. ...
Martin Horwood | 503 c918 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman no doubt makes an important point about the national context, but I seem to remem...
Christopher Chope | 503 c917-8 (Link to this contribution) Mr. Deputy Speaker, I will try to be proportionate. It may be that the leader and chief executive of...
Peter Bone | 503 c918 (Link to this contribution) Is that not the crux of the way in which this Third Reading debate and all private business should w...
Christopher Chope | 503 c918 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman does not make that point for the first time; it has also been made by the hon. Me...
Christopher Chope | 503 c919 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Returning to the point about proportionality and the national contex...
Speaker | 503 c919 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman seems fixated on procedural matters, and I have ruled on that.
Philip Davies | 503 c922 (Link to this contribution) I do not wish to bore you or the House with the recent performance of the Nottingham football teams,...
Speaker | 503 c922 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman is straying too far when he starts to discuss the performance of football ...
Christopher Chope | 503 c920 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend. Addressing the House during this debate has been a frustrating exercis...
Peter Bone | 503 c920 (Link to this contribution) Could my hon. Friend advise the House on the argument about pedlary being an entry route to entrepre...
Christopher Chope | 503 c920 (Link to this contribution) Let it never be said, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that we do not have some good humour in this House during ...
Speaker | 503 c919 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman raises another matter. If he is suffering from sickness, there is a very e...
Philip Davies | 503 c921-2 (Link to this contribution) I regret giving way to the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood), Mr. Deputy Speaker. I shall ...
Speaker | 503 c921 (Link to this contribution) Order. That really is not a very helpful intervention at this stage.
Martin Horwood | 503 c921 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman therefore support the in-out referendum supported by the Liberal Democrat pa...
Philip Davies | 503 c920-1 (Link to this contribution) May I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope), without whose herculean e...
Christopher Chope | 503 c922 (Link to this contribution) Is it right to say that the value of tickets for football matches is likely to depend on the success...
Peter Bone | 503 c917 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that I have made myself clear. I am not talking about people who are licensed to sell...
Christopher Chope | 503 c917 (Link to this contribution) A lot of pedlars do not work full time but sell novelties that might be associated with the soccer c...
Christopher Chope | 503 c916-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for putting that on the record. It shows the disproportionate impact...
Peter Bone | 503 c916 (Link to this contribution) I think that the figures in the report are that 69 per cent. of the working hours of a pedlar are sp...
Christopher Chope | 503 c915-6 (Link to this contribution) My understanding is that the effect of clause 5 in the Canterbury and Nottingham Bills is that pedla...
Peter Bone | 503 c915 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way; he is being extremely generous. In both Bills, claus...
Peter Bone | 503 c914 (Link to this contribution) Subsection (5) states that "any perishable item" will be""disposed of by the council"" for "the bes...
Philip Davies | 503 c927 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. Indeed, clause 7 says that perishable items that are seized may be disposed...
Christopher Chope | 503 c927 (Link to this contribution) Is it not even worse than that, because, in order to get compensation, someone would have to establi...
Philip Davies | 503 c927 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It would be wholly unfair to impose these restrictions and poten...
Peter Bone | 503 c927 (Link to this contribution) Much of my hon. Friend's speech has concentrated on pedlars and on how they will be done down by the...
Philip Davies | 503 c927-8 (Link to this contribution) That is a good point. Pedlars can make a living only if people are prepared to buy their products. P...
Peter Bone | 503 c928 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making a valid point; I had not thought of that before. However, the Bills set out...
Christopher Chope | 503 c928 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend accept that the biggest mischief is the trigger point for establishing the fixed...
Philip Davies | 503 c928 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend anticipates my next point. If one clause allows the council to set a fixed penalty at...
Christopher Chope | 503 c929 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that my hon. Friend would accept that it would be an exaggeration to say that it is equiva...
Philip Davies | 503 c929-30 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend may be right or may be wrong. It is difficult to know at this stage the main motivati...
Philip Davies | 503 c929 (Link to this contribution) Exactly. My hon. Friend is absolutely right that it is a Hobson's choice. It might not be "your mone...
Peter Bone | 503 c929 (Link to this contribution) On that last point, whatever we think about the individual Bills, the Nottingham City Council Bill, ...
Philip Davies | 503 c930 (Link to this contribution) I think my hon. Friend is right. It is for the people in those areas to determine whether their auth...
Julian Brazier | 503 c930 (Link to this contribution) Our discussion has been wide-ranging—and rather long for a Third Reading debate. I urge the House to...
Tony Lloyd | 503 c930 (Link to this contribution) I wish to move the Nottingham City Council Bill formally, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Speaker | 503 c930 (Link to this contribution) We will make a decision on the Canterbury Bill first.
Christopher Chope | 503 c924 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend confirm that that activity is often engaged in by Governments, particularly thei...
Philip Davies | 503 c924 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend may or may not be right about that. I am not particularly well up on the procurement ...
Philip Davies | 503 c922 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that my hon. Friend is right. The value is determined by the number of people who wish to ...
Peter Bone | 503 c922 (Link to this contribution) I am slightly confused, because page 18 of the transcripts of the Unopposed Bill Committee says that...
Christopher Chope | 503 c923 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend refers to the provisions in clause 11 of the Canterbury Bill. He will be aware that o...
Peter Bone | 503 c924 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making a powerful speech, but on this particular issue he has perhaps given the im...
Peter Bone | 503 c924 (Link to this contribution) I did not make myself clear. What happens is that the tout buys the ticket at a discount from somebo...
Peter Bone | 503 c925-6 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is being extremely generous in giving way. Is he aware that the mean difference trave...
Philip Davies | 503 c926 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. He makes the case perfectly. It is unfair to place such burdens on pedlars,...
Philip Davies | 503 c925 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. I am a fan of localism for many things, but in this case, where people, by ...
Christopher Chope | 503 c925 (Link to this contribution) Is not the essence of a pedlar that they are not likely to settle, or trade, in one area? They will ...
Speaker | 503 c924 (Link to this contribution) Order. We have explored the issue of ticket touting for quite some time, and I think the hon. Member...
Philip Davies | 503 c924-5 (Link to this contribution) Of course, Madam Deputy Speaker. I could go on at length about ticket touting, because it is a subje...
Peter Bone | 503 c926-7 (Link to this contribution) I want to take my hon. Friend back a few paragraphs in his speech. We have established that, under c...
Philip Davies | 503 c926 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. The other related point is that, when the Bills first came before the House...
Christopher Chope | 503 c926 (Link to this contribution) Can that point be reinforced by the fact that the Durham university research was carried out not wit...
Christopher Chope | 503 c913 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a very good point, and I am sure that if these Bills had had a Report stage, an...
Philip Davies | 503 c913 (Link to this contribution) I certainly agree with my hon. Friend on that point. Does he agree that, given that the consequences...
Christopher Chope | 503 c913-4 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. That is the concern. It would be fair to say that there has been a breakdown in trust be...
Philip Davies | 503 c914 (Link to this contribution) To my mind, it is even worse than that, as it may well be that the pedlars concerned need to sell th...
Christopher Chope | 503 c912 (Link to this contribution) Before my hon. Friend raised that point of order, I was about to give way to my hon. Friend the Memb...
Philip Davies | 503 c913 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has highlighted the point in clause 4 of the Nottingham City Council Bill that relate...
Julian Brazier | 503 c912 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend invites me to intervene on him, on this one occasion I shall do so. He knows perfectl...
Christopher Chope | 503 c912 (Link to this contribution) If I did know that, I think that I would have been immodest enough to have said so. I do not know it...
Speaker | 503 c910 (Link to this contribution) Order. This matter is now in the past. The Bills have been through Second Reading and Committee, and...
Christopher Chope | 503 c910-1 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to do that, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My only question is whether the contents of the two Bi...
Christopher Chope | 503 c910 (Link to this contribution) I am not seeking to rehearse the arguments, Mr. Deputy Speaker. If you bear with me, I shall come to...
Peter Bone | 503 c910 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is correct. However, this is the first opportunity that Members have had to comment o...
Speaker | 503 c910 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am not sure that it is for the convenience of the House, or indeed appropriate, for the hon...
Christopher Chope | 503 c909 (Link to this contribution) For reasons that have been made clear on a number of occasions, I am not yet convinced of the merits...
Ed Davey | 503 c908-9 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is in grave danger of over-egging the pudding. Pedlars are, as he and his colleag...
Philip Davies | 503 c908 (Link to this contribution) I take the hon. Gentleman's point about localism being broadly a good thing, but under the measures ...
Ed Davey | 503 c908 (Link to this contribution) The national legislation could make the necessary reconciliation in the Act, so I do not see any pro...
John Penrose | 503 c907 (Link to this contribution) If my hon. Friend is volunteering to help the process along, he or anyone else who did well in the p...
Christopher Chope | 503 c907 (Link to this contribution) Can my hon. Friend confirm that the Conservative party has found the paper produced by Paul Bradford...
John Penrose | 503 c907 (Link to this contribution) I can confirm that my hon. Friend kindly handed me the paper about 10 minutes ago and I have made a ...
Ed Davey | 503 c907 (Link to this contribution) I rise to make a few brief remarks to confirm that the Liberal Democrats support the measure. The de...
Peter Bone | 503 c908 (Link to this contribution) I understand that the hon. Gentleman is concerned about the time that it would take for national leg...
John Penrose | 503 c906 (Link to this contribution) I am trying to get to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough, but I am happy...
John Penrose | 503 c906 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend that it requires Members of Parliament such as him, and my hon. Friends ...
Philip Davies | 503 c906 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that the benefit of going for a national route following the consultation ...
Christopher Chope | 503 c907 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend accept that this is a two-stage process? First, the Government need to have a se...
John Penrose | 503 c905 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for leading me nicely to my next point. However, I should mention briefly tha...
Christopher Chope | 503 c906 (Link to this contribution) Before my hon. Friend allows the impression to be given that all pedlars operate against the interes...
John Penrose | 503 c906 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to accept my hon. Friend's point. A number of hon. Members, on both sides of the House, h...
Julian Brazier | 503 c905 (Link to this contribution) Can my hon. Friend imagine what it must be like to operate in a city where that is going on not as a...
John Penrose | 503 c905 (Link to this contribution) I completely take my hon. Friend's point. In fact, my local authority has examined whether it wishes...
Tony Lloyd | 503 c903-4 (Link to this contribution) It is because they have an amazing and accurate strength of belief in my capacity to advocate their ...
Christopher Chope | 503 c903 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman explain why other city of Nottingham representatives, who might have been fr...
Tony Lloyd | 503 c903 (Link to this contribution) I am cautious, but I shall not be discourteous to the hon. Gentleman.
Peter Bone | 503 c905 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Manchester, Central (Tony Lloyd) described what the position would be if Labour ...
John Penrose | 503 c904-5 (Link to this contribution) We have already had a wide range of contributions from my hon. Friends the Member for Canterbury (Mr...
Christopher Chope | 503 c914 (Link to this contribution) That is absolutely right, and in common language we would call that harassment. Pedlars would be in ...
Christopher Chope | 503 c914-5 (Link to this contribution) This is part of the problem with these two Bills. If a council seizes flowers and keeps them for 48 ...
Speaker | 503 c912 (Link to this contribution) I am quite sure that the procedures of the House have been satisfied and that what we are doing toda...
Peter Bone | 503 c917 (Link to this contribution) What is my hon. Friend's view of pedlars who go to football matches and park their trolleys at the e...
Philip Davies | 503 c928-9 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. This is another unfair element of the Bill. Of course, if someon...
Christopher Chope | 503 c930 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for those very generous comments. There is another point: a disproportionate ...
Philip Davies | 503 c923 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is partly right. The Canterbury Bill includes the restriction on selling tickets on t...
Philip Davies | 503 c924 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is clearly right, but that probably does not really apply to these Bills, which, to b...
Christopher Chope | 503 c912 (Link to this contribution) Obviously, I am not going to hold my breath, Mr. Deputy Speaker; otherwise, I might be deemed to be ...
Peter Bone | 503 c912 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I seek your guidance. A private Bill needs to be advertised...
Speaker | 503 c903 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman had better be careful otherwise he might get his hon. Friend into even gre...
Philip Davies | 503 c923 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is, as usual, absolutely right. We have got ourselves into a ridiculous situation. Th...

Subjects

Direct selling
Canterbury City Council
Licensing
Local government
Nottingham
Nottingham City Council
Touting
Street trading
Canterbury

Legislation

Canterbury City Council Bill 2007-08 to 2012-13
Nottingham City Council Bill 2007-08 to 2012-13

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
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