UK Parliament / Open data

Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill

Debate on bills on Friday, 20 April 2007, in the House of Commons.
Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill. Report stage. Adjourned. Debate to be resumed 27 April.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

459 c551-623 

Session

2006-07

Legislative stage

Report stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Commons chamber
Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill. As amended in Public Bill Committee.
Wednesday, 7 February 2007
Bills
House of Commons

Proceeding contributions

David Howarth | 459 c622 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to cause trouble for my hon. Friend’s amendment. However, given that there is now a lo...
Norman Baker | 459 c622-3 (Link to this contribution) It is important that we try to build on existing law when possible. We should try to ensure that wha...

Show all contributions (180)
Norman Baker | 459 c622 (Link to this contribution) I beg your pardon, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I did not intend to read the entire amendment. I was merely p...
Speaker | 459 c621 (Link to this contribution) Order. The question that the hon. Gentleman is posing follows the answers that the hon. Member for L...
David Winnick | 459 c621 (Link to this contribution) Would we not have a particular problem in our constituencies and boroughs? If our correspondence is ...
Speaker | 459 c621 (Link to this contribution) Order. Of course, I understood that, as the hon. Gentleman knows. However, I thought that we had alr...
David Winnick | 459 c621 (Link to this contribution) If I may continue with my intervention, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I was trying to support what the hon. Me...
Speaker | 459 c621 (Link to this contribution) Order. There is really no need for the hon. Gentleman to read out the amendment; everyone has it in ...
Norman Baker | 459 c621 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful both for your guidance, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and for the intervention made by the hon. ...
Speaker | 459 c622 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman is defying the Chair if he is proceeding to read out something that I had ...
Norman Baker | 459 c621-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I was merely trying to be helpful to the House as we address this...
Norman Baker | 459 c620-1 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to take any interventions. If MPs’ correspondence alone is withheld—regardless of the c...
Norman Baker | 459 c619-20 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful, as always, for your guidance, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I concede that there are hundreds o...
Speaker | 459 c620 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman cannot go on repeating examples. He is making the error that he made earli...
Simon Hughes | 459 c618 (Link to this contribution) Sometimes there are difficulties. Someone wrote to me the other day saying, ““You have written to th...
Norman Baker | 459 c617-8 (Link to this contribution) That is right. It would be easy for public bodies—such as Government Departments, NHS trusts or indi...
David Winnick | 459 c617 (Link to this contribution) Should not the distinction be made between when we are writing on behalf of constituents, where it i...
Norman Baker | 459 c616-7 (Link to this contribution) Well, no. If I, or any other Member of Parliament, had behaved in that way, that would be reprehens...
Speaker | 459 c619 (Link to this contribution) Order. I have listened carefully and attentively to the hon. Gentleman, but he is making the same po...
Norman Baker | 459 c619 (Link to this contribution) I shall do my best. Those dilemmas are difficult and I do not envy anybody who finds themselves in s...
Lord Bellingham | 459 c591 (Link to this contribution) I shall not. There has been a lot of talk to the effect that the flame of progress that is spurring...
Lord Bellingham | 459 c591 (Link to this contribution) I will not. We strongly support the freedom of information legislation and we are appalled by Her M...
David Winnick | 459 c591 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Bridget Prentice | 459 c591-2 (Link to this contribution) I, too, shall be brief, Madam Deputy Speaker. The amendments have had a comprehensive airing this mo...
Lord Blencathra | 459 c592-3 (Link to this contribution) The debate has been long and interesting. Of course, all hon. Members who spoke, including my hon. F...
Bridget Prentice | 459 c592 (Link to this contribution) I should like to finish my comment. I cannot add to what the hon. Member for North-West Norfolk said...
Lord Blencathra | 459 c593 (Link to this contribution) I take the view that the House of Commons should be capable of governing itself on a range of matter...
David Winnick | 459 c593 (Link to this contribution) I said that I did not question the right hon. Gentleman’s intentions. I believe that they are wrong,...
David Howarth | 459 c593 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Simon Hughes | 459 c594-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (David Maclean) for speaking to hi...
Lord Blencathra | 459 c593-4 (Link to this contribution) No. I am sorry, but I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman. He walked in about half an hour ago, ...
Simon Hughes | 459 c596 (Link to this contribution) I beg the hon. Gentleman’s pardon. I do not usually make that mistake. I have made the point that t...
Simon Hughes | 459 c595-6 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is exactly right. I have the latest copy of the Register of Members’ Interests wi...
David Winnick | 459 c595 (Link to this contribution) In reply to my earlier intervention, the right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (David Maclean...
Simon Hughes | 459 c597-8 (Link to this contribution) And—as was pointed out by the hon. Members for Walsall, North and for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Sheph...
David Howarth | 459 c596-7 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (David Maclean) said that the argument that volunta...
Simon Hughes | 459 c596 (Link to this contribution) Let me then summarise the points in regard to the relative consequence of the amendments to the legi...
Speaker | 459 c596 (Link to this contribution) Order. I must remind the hon. Gentleman that the concession of a wind-up speech is that it winds up ...
Simon Hughes | 459 c599 (Link to this contribution) I have been surprised that there has been such a lack of clarity. I can understand the Government ta...
Simon Hughes | 459 c599-600 (Link to this contribution) That is a question that we might have had an answer to, but we have not. The support of the hon. Me...
Norman Baker | 459 c599 (Link to this contribution) The proposition that has been put forward is that the House of Commons and House of Lords should be ...
David Winnick | 459 c598 (Link to this contribution) My intervention, as always I hope, is political; it is in no way personal. I have listened to the Fr...
Simon Hughes | 459 c598-9 (Link to this contribution) I am seeking to deal with the speeches that have been made. I can only speak for myself on the speci...
Speaker | 459 c598 (Link to this contribution) Order. I hope that the hon. Member for North Southwark and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes) will not be tem...
Simon Hughes | 459 c600-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention. I have tried to make sure that we do not have a debate in which...
Speaker | 459 c601 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman is going way beyond the scope of the amendment, on which, I remind him, he...
Norman Baker | 459 c605-6 (Link to this contribution) I have not, and I hope that you will believe me, Mr. Deputy Speaker, when I say that I write lots of...
Simon Hughes | 459 c605 (Link to this contribution) I want to know my hon. Friend’s view on a matter; I have a clear opinion myself, but I have not yet ...
Norman Baker | 459 c604-5 (Link to this contribution) The amendments deal with Members of Parliament’s communications with constituents and public bodies....
Speaker | 459 c603-4 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 14, leave out lines 7 to 12...
Norman Baker | 459 c602 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 2, page 1, line 5, leave out subsection (3).
Speaker | 459 c602 (Link to this contribution) I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby. The House having divided: Aye...
Simon Hughes | 459 c601 (Link to this contribution) Of course, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I apologise if I went too far. I shall end by referring to the speec...
Simon Hughes | 459 c606 (Link to this contribution) I should be grateful if my hon. Friend amplified a point that he touched on. He said that his proble...
Norman Baker | 459 c606 (Link to this contribution) I fear that that is a correct interpretation of events. The hon. Gentleman is quite right: if corres...
David Winnick | 459 c612 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, if there were many examples of the misuse of correspondence of M...
Simon Hughes | 459 c608 (Link to this contribution) Amendments were moved by the right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (David Maclean), whose Bil...
Norman Baker | 459 c608-9 (Link to this contribution) As my hon. Friend says, the issue has been flagged up since the Committee stage. Those promoting the...
David Winnick | 459 c609-10 (Link to this contribution) When we debated the 2000 Act, we found section 42 essential because so much of our correspondence co...
Norman Baker | 459 c610 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right. To be fair to the Government, for those responsible for drafting parlia...
Simon Hughes | 459 c610 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) referred to section 42 of the 2000 Act. Part 2—from...
Norman Baker | 459 c610-1 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. Some of us may believe that the 2000 Act contained too many exemptions. The Act that was pas...
Simon Hughes | 459 c611 (Link to this contribution) I have just one last linked point before my hon. Friend moves on. Does he agree that it is important...
Norman Baker | 459 c611-2 (Link to this contribution) Of course they must. It was suggested in Committee that one of the consequences might be that indivi...
Norman Baker | 459 c615 (Link to this contribution) That is true, and it brings me to my next point, on correspondence between Members of Parliament and...
David Winnick | 459 c615 (Link to this contribution) Would not it have been useful if the right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (David Maclean) in...
Norman Baker | 459 c613-5 (Link to this contribution) That is exactly right. I mentioned earlier that if information is leaked or inadvertently released,...
Simon Hughes | 459 c615 (Link to this contribution) We all have massive experience of dealing with these matters. We know that if people complain to us ...
Norman Baker | 459 c616 (Link to this contribution) Yes, or indeed in an e-mail that might be subject to investigation by the Metropolitan police under ...
Norman Baker | 459 c615-6 (Link to this contribution) That is absolutely right. In referring to the right hon. Gentleman and his contributions, I keep hop...
Simon Hughes | 459 c616 (Link to this contribution) These are important matters, as everyone who is here testifies, but there is huge merit in the prese...
Norman Baker | 459 c613 (Link to this contribution) That is absolutely right. Members of Parliament also have extra protection, in the sense that we hav...
Simon Hughes | 459 c580 (Link to this contribution) I am very keen that we do not neglect any of the arguments that were put in my hon. Friend’s tribuna...
Norman Baker | 459 c581 (Link to this contribution) That is exactly right. Will the Government consider supporting amendments Nos. 9 and 1? They have sa...
David Winnick | 459 c581-2 (Link to this contribution) Just as the decision to go to the Information Tribunal was taken without consulting the House of Com...
Norman Baker | 459 c582 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention. For the avoidance of any doubt, I should say that I, for one, a...
Norman Baker | 459 c581 (Link to this contribution) That point is succinctly put and an entirely accurate representation of what will be said. Indeed, i...
Richard Shepherd | 459 c581 (Link to this contribution) It happens because of the authority or power of these Houses to respond almost instantaneously shoul...
Norman Baker | 459 c581 (Link to this contribution) That is exactly right. I am afraid that should amendments Nos. 9 and 1 not be accepted, the proposal...
Simon Hughes | 459 c581 (Link to this contribution) We are not just talking about the public now. I do not know whether the hon. Members for Walsall, No...
Norman Baker | 459 c580 (Link to this contribution) Exactly so. We in the House have an obligation to be seen to be leading the debate. I hope that we d...
David Winnick | 459 c580-1 (Link to this contribution) If the Bill becomes law, will not the interpretation inevitably be that the House of Commons, having...
Simon Hughes | 459 c579 (Link to this contribution) Just so that we are clear: my hon. Friend is completely right to say that the Scots go further. For ...
Norman Baker | 459 c579 (Link to this contribution) That is exactly right. There are other benefits from the publication of details of the Members’ tra...
Simon Hughes | 459 c578 (Link to this contribution) I notice that the person who appeared for the Information Commissioner, a man called Mr. Pitt-Payne,...
Norman Baker | 459 c578-9 (Link to this contribution) That is exactly right, and I am afraid that those who want to change the present arrangements are un...
Simon Hughes | 459 c577 (Link to this contribution) There is another reason why the public need to understand the importance of our argument. A note pro...
Norman Baker | 459 c577-8 (Link to this contribution) That is exactly right. The situation shows the endemic nature of secrecy in the House of Commons Com...
Simon Hughes | 459 c576 (Link to this contribution) Let me deal with the intervention made by the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick). I have h...
Norman Baker | 459 c576 (Link to this contribution) I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, although I do not want to go into the make-up of the House of C...
David Winnick | 459 c590 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that if the Bill were passed into law without the amendment, it would ...
Richard Shepherd | 459 c590 (Link to this contribution) My instinct is that it would do the House of Commons no good and add to a general feeling, which I p...
Lord Bellingham | 459 c590 (Link to this contribution) We have had an interesting and well informed debate on the amendments, and several colleagues have s...
David Howarth | 459 c590 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Lord Bellingham | 459 c590-1 (Link to this contribution) No. I want to draw my remarks to a conclusion quite quickly because many Members have spoken and man...
David Winnick | 459 c591 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Simon Hughes | 459 c587 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman may not remember, but in the schedule of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 that...
Richard Shepherd | 459 c587-8 (Link to this contribution) I am always obliged to have a point that I am making reinforced, even at length. What the hon. Gentl...
Richard Shepherd | 459 c589 (Link to this contribution) I am glad to hear that my hon. Friend thinks that it is not much of a meal. I am pleased that in tho...
Speaker | 459 c585 (Link to this contribution) Order. I think that at the appropriate time the Minister will make the points that she wishes to mak...
Norman Baker | 459 c585-6 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the hon. Lady will make the points that she wishes to make. I was encouraging her to ...
Simon Hughes | 459 c585 (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether my hon. Friend was going on to the point that it appears that the proposal is ...
Norman Baker | 459 c585 (Link to this contribution) It is indeed. I hope that, as a consequence of our debate, the Under-Secretary of State for Constitu...
Richard Shepherd | 459 c586-7 (Link to this contribution) I always treat with diffidence the advice of my friend from Cambridge, who has a legal background. I...
Richard Shepherd | 459 c586 (Link to this contribution) I rise somewhat reluctantly at this juncture as a supporter of amendments Nos. 9 and 1, which stand ...
David Howarth | 459 c586 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman’s remarks prompt the question: if the House of Commons and the House of Lords are...
Speaker | 459 c584 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman and one or two other hon. Members have made that point very well. Perhaps ...
Norman Baker | 459 c585 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to do that, Madam Deputy Speaker. I merely make the point that openness leads to good gov...
Norman Baker | 459 c582-4 (Link to this contribution) May I refer to tribunal judgment again and move on to a different point, Madam Deputy Speaker? This ...
Simon Hughes | 459 c553 (Link to this contribution) I shall make one more point before giving way to the hon. Gentleman. One thing is seriously troubli...
Speaker | 459 c553 (Link to this contribution) We are debating the group of amendments that I have already mentioned; that is the scope of the deba...
David Winnick | 459 c553 (Link to this contribution) There is a wish on the part of the usual channels to make the Bill pass into law. My Government brou...
Simon Hughes | 459 c551-2 (Link to this contribution) I wish to speak to amendment No. 9, which stands in my name and in those of the hon. Members for Ald...
Speaker | 459 c551 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 1, in page 1, line 3, leave...
Simon Hughes | 459 c552-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a strong point very early on, and I am grateful for that expression of a cl...
David Winnick | 459 c552 (Link to this contribution) What would the hon. Gentleman say to those who say that the House of Commons decides on freedom of i...
Simon Hughes | 459 c551 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 9, in page 1, line 3, leave out subsection (2) and insert—"‘2 In Part 1 ...
David Winnick | 459 c557 (Link to this contribution) I do not in any way question the good faith of Members, let alone officials, who took the case to th...
Simon Hughes | 459 c557 (Link to this contribution) I agree. In some ways, it would be worse. My hon. Friend, with The Sunday Times, applied to ensure t...
Norman Baker | 459 c557 (Link to this contribution) There is a further point to make. The Information Commissioner has ruled, after careful consideratio...
Norman Baker | 459 c554 (Link to this contribution) It is worth putting on the record that the House of Commons Commission resisted tooth and nail the c...
Simon Hughes | 459 c554 (Link to this contribution) The difference is that if the legislation stated that allowances should be published, they would hav...
Andrew Dismore | 459 c554 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has moved on a little from the point that I want to make. Mr. Speaker has made it...
Simon Hughes | 459 c554 (Link to this contribution) Of course, Madam Deputy Speaker. The first of the group is amendment No. 9, to which I shall turn in...
Speaker | 459 c554 (Link to this contribution) Order. I remind the hon. Gentleman that, at this moment, we are discussing the group of amendment to...
Speaker | 459 c570 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the hon. Gentleman’s reference to that will be very brief, so that he can return to the ...
Norman Baker | 459 c570 (Link to this contribution) I will be brief, Madam Deputy Speaker, although with respect it is an important point in my argument...
Lord Bellingham | 459 c570 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman’s colleague, the hon. Member for North Devon (Nick Harvey), was a member of that ...
Norman Baker | 459 c570 (Link to this contribution) Indeed I do. I very much hope that the hon. Gentleman has read the Committee report, as I have. If h...
Speaker | 459 c569 (Link to this contribution) Order. That topic cannot be part of the debate.
Norman Baker | 459 c569-70 (Link to this contribution) I hear what you say, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I sincerely hope that those who wish to curtail the r...
Speaker | 459 c570 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman has made reference to this subject, but I now wish him to address his rema...
Norman Baker | 459 c570 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to do so, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I was trying to do so; I apologise if I have failed i...
David Winnick | 459 c569 (Link to this contribution) In all my experience I have never known of a situation in which a Member introducing a private Membe...
Norman Baker | 459 c568-9 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry that we have to discuss this Bill. Regardless of the motives of the right hon. Member for...
David Winnick | 459 c575-6 (Link to this contribution) Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that it appears that the three main parties, including his, were i...
Speaker | 459 c575 (Link to this contribution) Order. I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman would relate the points that he has made fairly clearly i...
Norman Baker | 459 c575 (Link to this contribution) I regard myself as deeply chastened, Madam Deputy Speaker, because I had hoped that I was doing that...
Speaker | 459 c572 (Link to this contribution) Order. I do not think that what is happening in the Scottish Parliament is relevant to this debate.
Norman Baker | 459 c572-5 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, although to be fair to my colleague it will become relevant if the ...
Norman Baker | 459 c572 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes an extremely pertinent and valid point. The Bill has the potential to unrav...
Simon Hughes | 459 c572 (Link to this contribution) Has my hon. Friend seen the article in The Scotsman of 8 March, headed ““Welcome to secret Scotland?...
David Winnick | 459 c572 (Link to this contribution) If the amendments were not passed and the measure became law, what would be the position if the devo...
Norman Baker | 459 c570-2 (Link to this contribution) I hope you accept that I was responding to an intervention, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am in some diff...
Speaker | 459 c570 (Link to this contribution) Order. I advise Members that it is not the previous proceedings of the Bill that are relevant now bu...
Simon Hughes | 459 c558 (Link to this contribution) I stand to be corrected by any hon. Member present, but I think that the hon. Gentleman is right to ...
Speaker | 459 c558 (Link to this contribution) I must remind the hon. Gentleman yet again that he should be speaking to his amendment.
Simon Hughes | 459 c558-9 (Link to this contribution) I was responding to the point put to me by the hon. Gentleman. Amendment No. 1 is a more whole-bloo...
Richard Shepherd | 459 c559 (Link to this contribution) One should not forget that this matter was subject to pre-legislative scrutiny by both Houses, so th...
Simon Hughes | 459 c559 (Link to this contribution) It was indeed. Let me remind the House how the position that we are now in came about. It was not ac...
Simon Hughes | 459 c559-61 (Link to this contribution) I am detailing the membership because some of the hon. Members in their places today signed up to a ...
Speaker | 459 c561 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman is straying into the second group of amendments. The second group deals wi...
Simon Hughes | 459 c561 (Link to this contribution) I will of course follow your direction, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I am aware that the second group h...
Lord Bellingham | 459 c562 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has confused me.
Norman Baker | 459 c565 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend said that no public concern had been raised about the present arrangements. I would s...
Simon Hughes | 459 c565 (Link to this contribution) I was not arguing that there was no concern in the opposite direction. I have spent much of the last...
Norman Baker | 459 c562-3 (Link to this contribution) The tribunal, which considered the matter in some detail, conducted an analysis of the interaction b...
Simon Hughes | 459 c563-4 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has dealt with the general point, but let me give another specific example. Obviously...
David Winnick | 459 c567 (Link to this contribution) I can imagine the reaction in the House of Commons if the European Parliament did anything of the ki...
David Winnick | 459 c565-7 (Link to this contribution) I fully support the amendments that have been tabled by the hon. Member for North Southwark and Berm...
Simon Hughes | 459 c567 (Link to this contribution) I am prompted by what the hon. Gentleman said to ask him what we would say if the European Parliamen...
Simon Hughes | 459 c562 (Link to this contribution) I beg the hon. Gentleman’s pardon. Amendment No. 4 is consequential to amendment No. 3, and amendme...
Norman Baker | 459 c618-9 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that we can. As and when such situations arise, we can all deal with them sensibly. Let u...
Norman Baker | 459 c599 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to have the opportunity to make a point at this stage. Does my hon. Friend agree that ...
David Winnick | 459 c600 (Link to this contribution) If the Bill unfortunately becomes law, that will make all the more necessary the amendments that the...
David Winnick | 459 c606 (Link to this contribution) If public bodies released information about Members’ correspondence and there was widespread disclos...
Norman Baker | 459 c576-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention, which has helpfully clarified matters. The tr...
Simon Hughes | 459 c553-4 (Link to this contribution) Obviously, I accept that, Madam Deputy Speaker. I wanted to report what the Minister said accuratel...
Speaker | 459 c559 (Link to this contribution) Order. I can allow a brief reference to the Select Committee, but I do not think that we need to kno...
Norman Baker | 459 c606-8 (Link to this contribution) Occasionally, public authorities err on the side of caution, but that occurs less often. The sadness...
Simon Hughes | 459 c554-7 (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 9, the first of the group, addresses the first clause of the Bill, which would amend t...
David Winnick | 459 c567 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. All the information concerning those elected bodies would be in the public domain. What abou...
Simon Hughes | 459 c613 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) is correct. Furthermore, part of the solution is in...
Simon Hughes | 459 c582 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Walsall, North rightly talked about his own party. I raised this matter with my ...
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