UK Parliament / Open data

Serious Crime Bill [HL]

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Wednesday, 14 March 2007, in the House of Lords.

Serious Crime Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage second day. Clauses 4 to 38 agreed to. Schedules 1 and 2 agreed to.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

690 c759-820

Session

2006-07

Serious Crime Bill (HL). Explanatory Notes HL Bill 27-EN also published.
Tuesday, 16 January 2007
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c767-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 47: 47: Clause 4, page 5, line 13, leave out subsection (4) The noble Barones...

Lord Dholakia | 690 c768 (Link to this contribution) We have similar concerns. This deals with Clause 4, a supplementary provisionabout involvement in se...

Show all contributions (135)

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c766 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness decides what to do with her amendment, perhaps I may clarify one point. It...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c766-7 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, is absolutely right. Of course, on the previous occasion, t...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c765 (Link to this contribution) The Minister talks in reasonable terms, and I am sure that she fully appreciates the nature of what ...

Lord Hylton | 690 c769 (Link to this contribution) Will the Government look again at their list? We see fly-tipping at the bottom of page 47 in Schedul...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c768-9 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I shall not disappoint, although I fear I may. The order-making power to amend Schedule ...

Lord Crickhowell | 690 c768 (Link to this contribution) I was away when the Bill started its passage through the House, so I come to it fresh. Looking serio...

Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 690 c768 (Link to this contribution) In addition to the point mentioned by my noble friend, the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Co...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c770-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 48: 48: Schedule 1 , page 46, line 25, at end insert— ““Armed robbery An offen...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c771 (Link to this contribution) Ah!

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c771-2 (Link to this contribution) ““Ah””, says the Minister. I know from my noble friend Lady Carnegy of Lour that fishing illegally i...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c772 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid there is danger of a split on the Front Bench of the Liberal Democrats, because my noble...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c769 (Link to this contribution) Of course we continue to keep the list under review; I made that point in my comments. I understand ...

Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 690 c770 (Link to this contribution) I hope that we shall come back to this. The Minister has just said that flexibility is necessary to ...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c770 (Link to this contribution) I reassure my noble and learned friend that we shall come back to it shortly. I hope that we are abl...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c773 (Link to this contribution) Clause 5(3) says in terms: "““Examples of prohibitions, restrictions or requirements that may be imp...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c772-3 (Link to this contribution) I shall not answer the question because I think the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, tests me. He is a fine ...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c773 (Link to this contribution) I invite noble Lordsto look at the front leaf of the Bill. I know that sometimes that may be difficu...

Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 690 c775 (Link to this contribution) Is my noble friend Lord Crickhowell sure that there will be no circumstances in which prevention of ...

Lord Crickhowell | 690 c775 (Link to this contribution) All I can say is that we often had cases where, by keeping our ears to the ground and using the sour...

Lord Dear | 690 c773-4 (Link to this contribution) I shall address the Committee briefly on fishing with rods and lines in rivers and on armed robbery....

Lord Crickhowell | 690 c774-5 (Link to this contribution) I, too, strongly support the inclusion of armed robbery. I entirely understand why my noble friend h...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c776 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the noble Baroness on moving the amendment as she did, because it neatly juxtaposes f...

Lord Waddington | 690 c776 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord makes an interesting point, but is there a theme behind the schedule? On the face of ...

Lord Dholakia | 690 c775 (Link to this contribution) I have no difficulty in accepting the explanation that the Minister offered at Second Reading about ...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c776 (Link to this contribution) I am tempted to follow the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, and I entirely understand what the noble Lo...

Lord Waddington | 690 c777 (Link to this contribution) But murder and armed robbery are not included. There are far more very serious crimes not in than ar...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c776 (Link to this contribution) I would argue that it is the theme of seriousness. It is right that that is the theme.

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c777 (Link to this contribution) Murder is a separate category: if you are convicted of murder, it is a very serious offence, you are...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c777 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I made it clear that I am trying to find out not just the level of seriousness expected ...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c777-8 (Link to this contribution) I will come to that point, but I want to finish the first issue, because it is important. The debate...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c778 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has not answered the question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Waddington: what is the t...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c778 (Link to this contribution) I answered that point, and I made it clear that these are lifestyle offences, which we drew from the...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c778 (Link to this contribution) As the Minister has said that he is prepared to consider my Amendments Nos. 48 and 50 as a sensible ...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c778-9 (Link to this contribution) That is not the case. On the first day of Committee I tried to explain that we will have prosecuted ...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c779 (Link to this contribution) We on these Benches have always made it clear that we do not want this to be either/or. We would muc...

Lord Burnett | 690 c779 (Link to this contribution) Has the noble Baroness wondered whether there could be circumstances in which a prosecution is follo...

Lord Hylton | 690 c784 (Link to this contribution) In supporting the line advocated by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, I want to say something that I would...

Lord Lucas | 690 c783-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 63: 63: After Clause 5, insert the following new Clause— ““Register of serious...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c783 (Link to this contribution) When pushing at an open door I do not like to take too much advantage unless the result on Report is...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c783 (Link to this contribution) I have no intention of inhibiting the debate, but I rise just to say to noble Lords that we intend t...

Lord Elton | 690 c783 (Link to this contribution) I neglected to draw the attention of noble Lords to the fact that if this amendment is agreed to, it...

Lord Dholakia | 690 c782-3 (Link to this contribution) I rise to put our arguments in support of the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay. We hav...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c780-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 60: 60: Clause 5, page 6, line 6, leave out subsection (7) The noble Baroness...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c780 (Link to this contribution) It was unfortunate that the consultation on the precise format of the list in Schedule 8 was not car...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c780 (Link to this contribution) For the sake of clarity, I should say that the offence list was put together at the same time. There...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c779-80 (Link to this contribution) I did say that I would try not to stray into the realms of later Liberal Democrat amendments, even t...

Lord Lyell of Markyate | 690 c787 (Link to this contribution) While I fully understand the family considerations which moved the most reverend Primate the Archbis...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c785-6 (Link to this contribution) That was a very useful discussion, and I want to let the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, know that I have qu...

Lord Lucas | 690 c787 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to the Minister for his reply. I agree with the most reverend Primate the Ar...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c785 (Link to this contribution) I add my support to my noble friend for the practical way he has brought forward this amendment. As ...

Lord Sentamu | 690 c785 (Link to this contribution) If your Lordships want to protect the individual who is subject to an order, I wonder why such a reg...

Lord Dear | 690 c785 (Link to this contribution) I attended a briefing last night—the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, was there as well—in which we were t...

Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 690 c784 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for this amendment. I like the sound of it very much. I...

Lord Burnett | 690 c784 (Link to this contribution) We also support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. In it he states that the Secretary of S...

Lord Dear | 690 c784 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support this amendment. I have wondered for a long time, certainly through Second Reading, h...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c759 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Mov...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c759-61 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 42: 42: Clause 4 , page 5, line 3, leave out paragraph (b) The noble Baroness...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c763-4 (Link to this contribution) The reference to ““mental state”” is a reference to intention. We are saying that you do not need to...

Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 690 c764 (Link to this contribution) That has been a very helpful explanation, and equally a very helpful intervention by my noble friend...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c763 (Link to this contribution) I shall certainly do that. What is slightly different is that we are seeking to deal with the issue ...

Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 690 c763 (Link to this contribution) It is quite difficult for a lay person to follow the rather complicated argument that the noble Baro...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c764-5 (Link to this contribution) We think that those issues are covered by the reasonableness provision. In relation to the acts comp...

Lord Brabazon of Tara | 690 c761 (Link to this contribution) I should point out that if this amendment is agreed to I will not be able to call Amendment No. 43.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c763 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend intervenes, it might assist the Committee if the Minister addressed the quest...

Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 690 c763 (Link to this contribution) May I—

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c761-3 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, and the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, for their helpful indica...

Lord Dholakia | 690 c761 (Link to this contribution) I shall be very brief. The purpose of the amendment is to ensure that a person's mental state can be...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c820 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c819-20 (Link to this contribution) I shall deal with the noble Baroness’s last question first. The figure that she gave is our current ...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c820 (Link to this contribution) If ever there were a hint that I should be brief! I can sometimes take a hint, and this is one of th...

Baroness Noakes | 690 c817-8 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that reply. When I said that it is within criminal law, I meant that it is within ...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c818-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 89: 89: Schedule 2, page 52, line 28, leave out paragraph 2 The noble Barones...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c815-7 (Link to this contribution) First, on the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Burnett, I do not think that anything is not c...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c787 (Link to this contribution) Yes, these proceedings will be held in open court.

Lord Hylton | 690 c787 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord makes up his mind, am I right that proceedings for ASBOs as civil orders are h...

Lord Burnett | 690 c788 (Link to this contribution) I had understood that this was a probing case. Was the noble Lord struck by the apparent paradox in ...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c788-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 64: 64: Clause 7 , page 6, line 30, at beginning insert— ““(1)”” The noble Ba...

Lord Lucas | 690 c788 (Link to this contribution) I shall consider that when I read the Minister’s remarks. I am not about to leap to a hasty conclusi...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c789 (Link to this contribution) Dinner-break arrangements are being finalised as I speak.

Lord Dholakia | 690 c789 (Link to this contribution) The amendments have our support. It is right that serious crime prevention orders should be made by ...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c787 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to have further discussion outside the Chamber so that we can explore the issues in the i...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c791 (Link to this contribution) Yes, admonished me and indicated over and over again that house arrest is not involved. So in conjun...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c790 (Link to this contribution) The next group of amendments is rather long. For that reason, I propose that the Committee stage sho...

Lord Henley | 690 c794-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 68: 68: Clause 9 , page 7, line 5, leave out ““a significant”” and insert ““an...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c793-4 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness has gone through the various clauses to which we object. It would take far too lo...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c791-3 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, for the brevity with which he outlined his amendmen...

Lord Henley | 690 c791 (Link to this contribution) I intervene only to say that I am very sorry that I was not able to have dinner with my noble friend...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 690 c789-90 (Link to this contribution) Well, I have to deal with the rumbling-tummy brigade as well. I shall deal first with Amendment No....

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c790 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful tothe Minister for his indication of the Government’s approach to Amendment No. 66. It...

Lord Henley | 690 c807 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 82: 82: Clause 26 , page 15, line 28, leave out ““considers to have been”” and...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c807-8 (Link to this contribution) I know that the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, enjoined me not to use examples, and I am about to do ...

Lord Henley | 690 c808 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may correct the Minister on one matter—at least I hope I can do so—because my noble friend...

Baroness Noakes | 690 c808-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 83: 83: Clause 27 , page 16, line 28, leave out subsection (6) The noble Baro...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c810 (Link to this contribution) We very much welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, to our company and look forward to her partici...

Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 690 c806 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful. Perhaps we shall have to come to this in due course. I do not believe that is what Cl...

Lord Burnett | 690 c807 (Link to this contribution) No doubt those who make those rules will have the misfortune to have to read our proceedings—althoug...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c806-7 (Link to this contribution) It probably comes down to the procedure that would need to be adopted. Before the court heard or lis...

Lord Burnett | 690 c815 (Link to this contribution) I know that I am raising matters that have been covered previously, but I have been trying to rememb...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c813 (Link to this contribution) I refer to our earlier debate. The body would need to be a body that it would be appropriate to wind...

Baroness Noakes | 690 c814 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for that. We do not want to delay things this evening. I am trying to ...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c811 (Link to this contribution) We think that the modifications would have to be consistent with the Insolvency Act. If we wanted to...

Baroness Noakes | 690 c810-1 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the Minister for her response, which I could have anticipated. I was trying to...

Baroness Noakes | 690 c813 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reply. She stressed that the reason for using the negative procedure w...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c812-3 (Link to this contribution) I reassure the noble Baroness that we have tried to identify all the relevant bodies in the list, in...

Baroness Noakes | 690 c811-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 84: 84: Clause 27 , page 17, line 22, at end insert— ““(12) No order can be ma...

Baroness Noakes | 690 c811 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for that response. I shall certainly take that back and discuss it wit...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c799-800 (Link to this contribution) I disagree with the noble Lord. His point is that if all those things are significant, then the pers...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c800 (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest as a former deputy High Court judge who sat in civil proceedings many times. F...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c800 (Link to this contribution) It is not a change of circumstance but, as I tried to make clear, if the third party had not been in...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c798 (Link to this contribution) We have excluded the bookmaker but whom do we include? Do we include the spouse, the partner, the bu...

Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 690 c798 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister explain something that I do not understand. How does the third party in Clause 9 kn...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c798-9 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, makes a very powerful point. I remind him that the Government are ...

Lord Crickhowell | 690 c799 (Link to this contribution) The fact of the matter is that the word ““significant”” is there not to be helpful but to restrict; ...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c795-6 (Link to this contribution) We support these amendments. The amendments that we consider to be most important apply to Clauses 1...

Lord Crickhowell | 690 c797-8 (Link to this contribution) As always, the noble Baroness sounds extremely reasonable and very convincing. However, I am not a l...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c796-7 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Henley, for setting out the reasons for his amendment; this is a probin...

Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 690 c805-6 (Link to this contribution) I should like to ask the Minister a question. She has said, by reference to Clause 17, that it is op...

Lord Burnett | 690 c806 (Link to this contribution) I entirely endorse what the nobleand learned Lord has said, and with his wealth of experience on the...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c805 (Link to this contribution) Let me say straightaway to the noble Lord, Lord Burnett, that I agree with the spirit of the amendme...

Lord Burnett | 690 c805 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to the Minister for her response but, to be a little more precise than perha...

Lord Henley | 690 c803 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has clarified the matter. I accept everything that she said and I beg leave to withdraw...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c802-3 (Link to this contribution) I understand why the noble Lord has tabled these amendments, but we do not think that they are neces...

Lord Dholakia | 690 c802 (Link to this contribution) We support the two amendments. They deal with the notice requirement of an order. I am sure these am...

Lord Henley | 690 c801-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 74: 74: Clause 10 , page 7, line 34, at end insert ““and he has deliberately a...

Lord Henley | 690 c801 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friends Lord Crickhowell and Lady Carnegy and the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresfo...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 690 c765-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all noble Lords who have tried to assist me in untangling what remains a difficult ...

Lord Lyell of Markyate | 690 c784-5 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support what has been said. It is extremely important that what goes on in this way shoul...

Lord Lucas | 690 c787 (Link to this contribution) Yes, and that is one of the dangers. An entirely innocent person can be subject to an order merely b...

Lord Burnett | 690 c791 (Link to this contribution) Admonished.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 690 c806 (Link to this contribution) I turn to the noble and learned Lord’s question. Clause 17(4) refers to the circumstances in relatio...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c790-1 (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 67: 67: Clause 9, page 7, line 2, leave out subsections (1) to (3) The noble L...

Baroness Noakes | 690 c814-5 (Link to this contribution) I decided to use a stand part debate to explore some of the Government’s thinking on Clause 27. I ha...

Lord Burnett | 690 c803-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 76: 76: After Clause 16 , insert the following new Clause— ““Obligation to var...