Serious Crime Bill [HL]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, for the brevity with which he outlined his amendments. With the greatest regret, I must tell him that I find the new shortened form no more attractive than the last, but I am confident that the noble Lord will continue to try. Amendments Nos. 67, 71 and 73 follow on from our earlier debate on amendments and clauses stand part relating to the making of orders in the High Court. I understand, now that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, has made it clear, that he on behalf of the Liberal Democrats does not find these orders as attractive as we do, but I hope that his conversion is still possible. Amendment No. 67 would remove the subsections in Clause 9 that provide the right for third parties to make representations in the High Court and Amendment No. 71 removes the reference to Clauses 20 and 21 from Clause 9(4). Those provisions relate to the Crown Court varying an order made by theHigh Court. Amendment No. 73 would remove Clause 9(5), which allows third parties to make representations at an appeal. Although subsection (5) is relevant to the Crown Court as well as to the High Court, I gather from the noble Lord’s amendments that he wishes to expunge the High Court from any involvement at all in the making of these orders. Amendments Nos. 80 and 81 are similar in intent in that they provide for some of the consequential amendments that would be needed if the order-making power in Clause 1 were removed. I know that it will not surprise the noble Lord if I tell him that I must resist these amendments, as I have already made clear the necessity for the orders to be available in the High Court. The clauses touched on here provide the framework for the effective operation of the serious crime prevention orders. Clause 16 is necessary to provide for a maximum length of time for which an order may be enforced. It also provides for flexibility in determining when different terms of the order come into force, allowing the courts to specify such depending on the circumstances under consideration. So, for example, where the subject of the order is serving a prison sentence and is released during the lifetime of the order, it may be appropriate to specify terms in the order that are neither appropriate nor necessary while he is in custody. The noble Lord believes that unless an individual himself has been convicted of an offence and the court, at the time of the individual's conviction, is of the view that a prevention order should be made, then no order preventing the criminal acts of serious criminals should be made at all, notwithstanding the fact that one has identified a way in which crime can and should properly be prohibited in the future.The Government cannot agree with that view. The evidence that we have to date is that most serious criminals tend to be serial offenders. There is a high degree of recidivism among those who engage in serious crime as a way of being. If we are to interdict their criminal activities, we have not only to catch and convict them but also to take steps to better prevent them from engaging in those sorts of activity. Clause 17, which provides for variation, clearly shows why that is important. However, the first exception to the High Court in Clause 17 is that the Crown Court can vary an order if it convicts a person of a serious offence and an order has already been imposed on them. The second exception in Clause 17 is that the Crown Court can vary an order if it convicts a person for breach of an order. Under this clause, the subject of an order can apply for his order to be varied if there has been a change in circumstances affecting the order which means that the order or any terms of it are no longer appropriate. Where the terms of the order are no longer reasonable or proportionate, the High Court will amend them accordingly. Clause 17 also provides for the relevant applicant authority to make an application for variation at any time, not just where there has been a change of circumstance. This provides a means of ensuring that the orders maintain their focus and specificity throughout their life, ensuring that protection of the public afforded by the orders is maintained. An application by the relevant applicant authority could seek to make the order more as well as less onerous. We have already discussed why placing an obligation on the applicant authority would be both impractical and unnecessary. The clause builds on the safeguards for third parties in Clause 9 by providing them with an avenue to apply for variation. I am surprised that the noble Lord and, therefore,I take it, the Liberal Democrats are not attractedby this very careful and effective method of modification. The Committee will know that, if an individual was not involved, he can make an application, even if there has not been a change in circumstances, but only if it was reasonable for him not to have been involved sooner. We believe that that is reasonable. This second part of the test ensures that a third party who is not aware of the order until after it is made has an opportunity to put his case. This clause is a necessary and balanced approach to ensure that the orders can be kept up to date to protect the subject of an order from unreasonable conditions where circumstances have changed and to ensure that the public are protected as effectively as possible. Clause 18 provides a similar function to Clause 17 but in relation to an application for discharge of an order. I have already alluded to Clauses 20 and 21, which provide a power for the Crown Court to vary an order where the subject has been convicted either of a serious offence or of the offence under Clause 25 for breach of order. I appreciate that the noble Lord may simply have grouped all these amendments together to make a point, but one sees how necessary it is to look with great care at how these clauses link together. We have dealt with Clause 23 and the reasons for Clauses 33, 34, 35 and 36. All these deal accurately and well with some of the difficult issues that the court will have to bear in mind before making an order. I ask that these orders should be agreed to and that the noble Lord thinks again about whether it is appropriate to strike out these parts of the Bill as he seeks to do by virtue of his amendments.