UK Parliament / Open data

Judicial Review and Courts Bill

Lords committee stage first day. Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

819 cc51-115 

Session

2021-22

Department

Ministry of Justice

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber
Legislative scrutiny: Judicial Review and Courts Bill. Joint Committee on Human Rights tenth report.
Wednesday, 1 December 2021
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
House of Commons
Judicial Review and Courts Bill 2021-22. Brought from the Commons.
Wednesday, 26 January 2022
Bills
House of Lords
Building Safety Bill; Judicial Review and Courts Bill; Office for Demographic Change Bill. Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee twentieth report.
Wednesday, 9 February 2022
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Judicial Review and Courts Bill. Constitution Committee (HL) twelfth report
Monday, 21 February 2022
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords

Show all related items (5)
Deposited Paper DEP2022-0269
Monday, 7 March 2022
Deposited papers
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions


Show all contributions (101)
Lord Scriven | 819 c51 (Link to this contribution)

On a point of order, my Lords, questions on a Statement should have been for 15 minutes and not f...

Baroness Penn | 819 c51 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, a Private Notice Question lasts for 15 minutes; a repeat of an Urgent Question lasts fo...

Lord Pannick | 819 c51 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Pannick

1: Clause 1, page 1, leave out line 9

Member’s explanator...

Lord Pannick | 819 cc51-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the reaction of most of your Lordships to Part 1 of this Bill at Second Reading was sum...

Lord Anderson of Ipswich | 819 cc52-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am slightly more relaxed than my noble friend Lord Pannick about the prospective-only...

Lord Beith | 819 cc54-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this is an area of complexity and difficulty and I think the difficulties are added to ...

Lord Hope of Craighead | 819 cc55-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I find myself in the same position as my noble friend Lord Anderson and I would like to...

Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood | 819 cc56-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I feel I have to rise at this juncture. I supported Clause 1 at Second Reading and cont...

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb | 819 cc58-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I love these debates with our legal eagles, especially when they disagree. My only remi...

Lord Faulks | 819 cc59-60 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have the disadvantage of being a lawyer, an interest which I declare, and I was the c...

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb | 819 c60 (Link to this contribution)

Before the noble Lord sits down, may I correct him? I did not say that this clause suggested an e...

Lord Faulks | 819 c60 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful for that clarification, but I am afraid to say that I still fail to follow how brin...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 819 cc60-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this is a very important debate and in this part of it, I will focus only on whether it...

Lord Hope of Craighead | 819 c61 (Link to this contribution)

The noble and learned Lord was kind enough to refer to the case that I was referring to. However,...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 819 c61 (Link to this contribution)

New subsection (1)(a) deals with that point. The effect of the order stood until the Supreme Cour...

Lord Hope of Craighead | 819 c61 (Link to this contribution)

I recommend that the noble and learned Lord refers to Treasury 2 because I made exactly the point...

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 819 cc63-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I enter this discussion with some trepidation. Nevertheless, it raises very important p...

Lord Faulks | 819 c65 (Link to this contribution)

I am most interested in the way in which the noble Lord analyses this. Is he essentially saying t...

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 819 c65 (Link to this contribution)

It is a two-pronged attack. I do not believe that the judges should have the power to make lawful...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 819 cc65-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I agree with the opening remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Marks—I too enter this discuss...

Lord Wolfson of Tredegar | 819 cc66-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the previous two contributors to the debate noted that they spoke on these matters with...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 819 c68 (Link to this contribution)

If the court determines that regulations that impose a tax charge are unlawful but decides that t...

Lord Wolfson of Tredegar | 819 c68 (Link to this contribution)

If the noble and learned Lord will forgive me, I will come to precisely that point later in my sp...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 819 c68 (Link to this contribution)

I am raising it now because the noble Lord is placing huge emphasis on the word “treated”. I woul...

Lord Wolfson of Tredegar | 819 cc68-71 (Link to this contribution)

I will come to this point because these are two sides of the same coin. The short answer to the n...

Lord Pannick | 819 cc71-2 (Link to this contribution)

I am very grateful to the Minister and to all those who have spoken in this interesting debate. I...

Lord Anderson of Ipswich | 819 c72 (Link to this contribution)

My noble friend just said that no case has come close to applying a prospective-only quashing ord...

Lord Pannick | 819 c72 (Link to this contribution)

If he gave such an order, why is there a need for Parliament to step in and deal with the matter?...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 819 c73 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede

2: Clause 1, page 1, line 9, at end insert—

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 819 cc73-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will speak to my various amendments quite briefly, because while the detail of the am...

Lord Lexden | 819 c74 (Link to this contribution)

I apologise for getting things into a state of confusion—or nearly—by thinking that Amendment 3 w...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 819 cc74-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will take the opportunity to jump in briefly at this stage, even though the first thr...

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb | 819 c75 (Link to this contribution)

I do not see this as a tool in the toolbox but as opening up a nest of snakes. When you use the p...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 819 cc75-6 (Link to this contribution)

These are important amendments. They address the botched way that, if these powers are to come in...

Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood | 819 cc76-7 (Link to this contribution)

I hesitate, my Lords, to speak again. I feel that so much of what has been said has been dancing ...

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 819 c77 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this group of amendments, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, is designed to take ...

Lord Faulks | 819 c78 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the noble Lord for giving way. Of course, new subsection (8)(f) refers to

“any othe...

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 819 cc78-9 (Link to this contribution)

It is absolutely right that the court can consider any other matter, but it must consider all the...

Lord Wolfson of Tredegar | 819 c79 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will respond to the amendments in this group in grouping order. I start by making a p...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 819 c79 (Link to this contribution)

Is the Government’s intention that these two remedies—new subsection (1)(a) and (b)—should be in ...

Lord Wolfson of Tredegar | 819 cc79-80 (Link to this contribution)

Yes and no, in the sense that this gets us into the argument about the presumption, because the p...

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 819 c80 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way, but is that right in relation to new subsection (...

Lord Wolfson of Tredegar | 819 c80 (Link to this contribution)

First, they may not apply at all, because there may, in a particular case, not be any person who ...

Lord Pannick | 819 c80 (Link to this contribution)

I am very grateful to the Minister. He emphasises that the court can have regard to other factors...

Lord Wolfson of Tredegar | 819 cc80-2 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the noble Lord. I was going to come to interests of justice slightly later, but ...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 819 c82 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. As my noble and learned friend ...

Lord Anderson of Ipswich | 819 c82 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Anderson of Ipswich (CB)

13: Clause 1, page 2, leave out lines 24 to 32...

Lord Anderson of Ipswich | 819 cc83-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I rise to speak to my Amendment 13. Two of the greatest joys of practice at the Bar are...

Lord Beith | 819 cc84-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, if I were to give my apprentice joiner grandson a tool for his toolbox, I would not say...

Lord Etherton | 819 cc85-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich, indicated, I am happy to join myself with ...

Lord Pannick | 819 c86 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I agree with those who have spoken, and particularly with the noble and learned Lord, L...

Lord Hope of Craighead | 819 c87 (Link to this contribution)

I shall say just a few words. It is very strange that there is nothing in the Explanatory Notes t...

Lord Faulks | 819 cc87-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I feel tempted to respond to the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Beith. It is abso...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 819 c88 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich, on his Amendment 13. He rightl...

Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd | 819 cc88-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I entirely support the amendments put forward, for the reasons that have been given. I ...

Lord Faulks | 819 c89 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps I might briefly add to that point before the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, speak...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 819 cc89-90 (Link to this contribution)

I have just two points. First, I agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, that no reason...

Lord Judge | 819 c90 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I had no intention of intervening in this debate, but the question that seems to arise ...

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 819 cc90-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I entirely support the removal of the presumption. I will never try to achieve the brev...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 819 cc91-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I open by noting that my noble friend Lady Chakrabarti said that Amendment 14, to which...

Lord Wolfson of Tredegar | 819 cc92-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I begin by responding to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, to whom I am grateful for his ch...

Lord Beith | 819 c93 (Link to this contribution)

On the basis of what the Minister has just argued, do I understand the Government’s position to b...

Lord Wolfson of Tredegar | 819 c93 (Link to this contribution)

The Government’s position is that the presumption will enable the case law to develop more quickl...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 819 c94 (Link to this contribution)

Surely the courts will consider it when it is raised by the Government, and the question of the a...

Lord Wolfson of Tredegar | 819 c94 (Link to this contribution)

There are two parts of the answer to that. First, there are, as I said earlier, many judicial rev...

Lord Judge | 819 c94 (Link to this contribution)

Why is the interests of justice test not quite sufficient for your purposes?

Lord Wolfson of Tredegar | 819 cc94-5 (Link to this contribution)

I think I replied to that point in the previous group. The interests of justice test is subsumed ...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 819 c95 (Link to this contribution)

Does the Minister understand that his comments about third parties are now making me feel more ne...

Lord Wolfson of Tredegar | 819 c95 (Link to this contribution)

With respect, no. The noble Baroness is looking at this in a very negative way. The whole point a...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 819 c95 (Link to this contribution)

That is an interesting answer. If there are two judicial reviews going on and one holds, for exam...

Lord Wolfson of Tredegar | 819 c95 (Link to this contribution)

We all know that judicial reviews have to be brought within three months of the act. Therefore, I...

Lord Wolfson of Tredegar | 819 c96 (Link to this contribution)

The position would still be that proper case management can deal with all of this. The point that...

Lord Pannick | 819 c96 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. He expresses the hope that these provisions will en...

Lord Wolfson of Tredegar | 819 cc96-7 (Link to this contribution)

I know that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister is still recovering from my absence fro...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 819 cc97-8 (Link to this contribution)

I am hugely and genuinely grateful to the Minister for that, because it cuts to the heart of my r...

Lord Wolfson of Tredegar | 819 c98 (Link to this contribution)

I would not say that it is “just” about remedies; as this debate shows, remedies are very importa...

Lord Anderson of Ipswich | 819 cc98-9 (Link to this contribution)

I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this notable debate—notable not just for its qual...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 819 c99 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede

16: Clause 2, page 3, line 19, at end insert—

...
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 819 cc99-101 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, a Cart judicial review is where the High Court can, in exceptional circumstances, revie...

Lord Faulks | 819 cc101-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I do not want to repeat what I said at Second Reading. Suffice it to say that I referre...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 819 c102 (Link to this contribution)

Before the noble Lord sits down, just to put the record straight, it is right that David Lammy sa...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 819 cc102-3 (Link to this contribution)

I disagree quite strongly with what the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, said about how suggesting that t...

Lord Faulks | 819 c103 (Link to this contribution)

The noble and learned Lord does not mischaracterise the conclusions we reached at all. Quite righ...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 819 c104 (Link to this contribution)

There is a fundamental misunderstanding there. Of course, Parliament can reverse a judicial revie...

Lord Pannick | 819 cc104-5 (Link to this contribution)

The noble and learned Lord has raised a number of very valid points in opposition to Clause 2. I ...

Lord Etherton | 819 cc105-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, may I follow my noble friend Lord Pannick, who has referred to my Amendment 23, which w...

Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd | 819 c106 (Link to this contribution)

May I add a couple of observations? It seems to me that experience has shown that it was difficul...

Lord Trevethin and Oaksey | 819 c106 (Link to this contribution)

May I just ask a question about the middle way proposed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ether...

Lord Pannick | 819 c107 (Link to this contribution)

That is a very important point. If the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, brings back his ame...

Lord Hacking | 819 cc107-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I apologise for the croak in my voice. As two noble Lords have already recognised, the ...

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb | 819 c108 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I do not have enough experience to talk about this first hand, but I get a lot of very ...

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames | 819 cc109-111 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, if I may, I shall speak first to my Amendment 20, to create an exception to the ending ...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 819 cc111-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I want to comment on Amendment 23 in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ether...

Lord Wolfson of Tredegar | 819 cc112-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will begin by addressing the clause as a whole before dealing with specific amendment...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 819 c115 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is clear we will return to a number of issues on Report. But for this evening, I beg...

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