Offender Rehabilitation Bill

I would like to start with a few words on our friend and colleague, the former Member for Wythens...

On the pilot, some of us in the House expressed our concerns. I have now looked into the matter a...

The hon. Lady might want to reflect that had the Secretary of State not cancelled the pilots alre...

Would the hon. Lady accept, then, that there would be some delay to short-term prisoners getting ...

I do not quite follow the hon. Gentleman’s logic. Had we kept the pilots running, we would be exa...

Does the hon. Lady not accept that my colleagues’ arguments are against pilots in general, not pi...

We are in favour of piloting. We like to have evidence on which to base decisions, and we think i...

I have a lot of sympathy with the hon. Lady’s point about the need to pilot this significant chan...

I will come to the 2007 Act later, but since the hon. Gentleman has mentioned it now, I shall com...

My hon. Friend is no doubt aware of the fiasco of the IT service for interpreters in courts, whic...

My hon. Friend is completely right. Serving on the Public Accounts Committee, she will be familia...

My hon. Friend is certainly reinforcing concerns raised by officers in Devon and Cornwall about t...

It will not surprise my hon. Friend to know that I do agree. I visited the pilots when they comme...

My understanding is that within the CRCs there will be skilled professional people whose job it w...

I would hope that there will be someone working in a CRC who could assess risk. The point is that...

I am listening intently to the hon. Lady’s argument, but how can it have real force if she dismis...

I do not have a problem with any of the organisations to which the hon. Gentleman refers. The fac...

I am trying to get to the point of the characteristics of the organisations that are fit for the ...

Yes, I do. All I am asking for is parity. A public sector provider of these services is subject t...

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way and, as ever, for her kind words. I suggest, howeve...

Perhaps, then, if that is the Minister’s attitude, he will be minded to support our new clause 5....

I am sure it is entirely my fault for being obtuse, but could the hon. Lady try to weave her rema...

I will attempt to assist the hon. and learned Gentleman. The point is that Oakwood prison is run ...

It is not.

Perhaps the Minister knows more than I do—I hope he does—but nothing we have read suggests that G...

Perhaps I can help. The list of prime bidders has now been published, and Members may well find i...

But those are lead bidders, and I understand that none of the contracts will be taken on by one o...

The statement that was made to the House a couple of weeks ago was explicit about the possibility...

That is certainly my understanding, and nothing that the Minister has said so far contradicts it....

In the past, the Justice Committee has suggested not that private companies should be subject to ...

We would probably go a little further, but I accept what the right hon. Gentleman says. The new c...

The heads of some of the big private sector providers recently appeared before the Public Account...

I was not aware of that, but I am very pleased that some of the big providers are taking that att...

I am, in some ways, trying to help the hon. Lady’s case. She has referred to “unqualified provide...

Absolutely not. I welcome the involvement of probation mutuals. I think that it would have been a...

I will be brief because we enjoyed the speech of the hon. Member for Darlington (Jenny Chapman) f...

indicated dissent.

Well, I hope I have read the hon. Lady’s entry correctly. Perhaps she had better come and see me ...

Might not another reason for our pressing these amendments be accountability and wanting to see e...

No doubt that might be one of the collateral reasons, but that does not undermine the point I am ...

rose—

I seem to have provoked all sorts of charming people. I give way.

2.15 pm

I really did not want to intervene and was trying very hard not to do so, but I just want the hon...

Is it St Francis I am reminded of: “Oh Lord make me pure, but not yet”?

St Augustine.

St Augustine. I am so glad for that correction. The Minister is multi-talented.

I do not th...

May I begin by apologising as I will not be able to be present for the final winding-up speeches?...

Does the hon. Lady not accept that a tendering-out process is vital if we are to assist short-ter...

I hear that point and I have heard it made for months now, but I do not agree that that is the on...

The hon. Lady is right that the previous Labour Government set out exactly such an aspiration and...

I support what the Minister says, but there are two points to make. First, we have not been prese...

The hon. Lady has attended the debates on this subject. She was here for the Opposition day debat...

I agree that it is unacceptable that those people are not getting support now. I would like to go...

Will the hon. Lady give way?

I should just like to tell the House what the hon. Member for Reigate said. After the probation s...

I do not think that anyone in the House would dispute the fact that the probation service does an...

Unfortunately, I cannot explain that, because the plans have not been put before us. I am therefo...

Of course democratic accountability is important. The hon. Lady has mentioned the opportunities t...

Again, it would be nice to have the evidence; instead, we are debating in the dark. I find it sho...

I rise to speak in support of new clause 4. The hon. Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion) mentio...

I wish to speak briefly to new clauses 1 and 4, both of which I have co-signed with Her Majesty’s...

I endorse everything the hon. Gentleman is saying about the excellent service that the current pr...

The hon. Lady, who has taken an interest in this subject for many years, as have I, is absolutely...

rose—

Yes, of course I shall give way, but let me make this point. Time and again, I have heard NAPO sa...

The right hon. Gentleman and I have many mutual friends who are members of NAPO. Harry Fletcher i...

rose—

I do not think that we need to divert into other areas. The short point I am making is that of co...

I agree entirely with the hon. and learned Gentleman on that. We all agree that we need to deal w...

Does my right hon. Friend agree that there has been too much social experimentation between the p...

I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. That feeling is held widely across the House, and not j...

I apologise to the House for the fact that I will leave after my brief remarks, because at 3 o’cl...

I rise to support new clauses 1 and 4. I will not repeat the excellent arguments that my hon. Fri...

It might help the hon. Lady if I clarified two points relating to what she has just said. First, ...

I thank the Minister for that clarification, particularly the first point, which is indeed good n...

Will my hon. Friend give way?

Yes, but I will just finish responding to the Minister’s intervention.

On the Minister’s se...

I should have waited for my hon. Friend to finish responding to the Minister before seeking to in...

I thank my hon. Friend for her comments.

I am also worried about some of the companies that...

I begin by echoing the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Jenny Chapman) about...

I am not sure I will be able to help the right hon. Gentleman sleep easier in his bed. Equally, I...

I do not wish to upset the Minister, because he is a decent cove, as far as he can be with his br...

rose—

rose—

I give way to my former shadow, the hon. and learned Member for Harborough.

I think my shadow is rather bigger than it used to be. I want to encourage the right hon. Gentlem...

The point I am trying to make is that I support new clause 1 because the Government are trying to...

I take the right hon. Gentleman’s point that I will have a chance to respond later and I suspect ...

This is the nub of the argument: I accept that the Minister believes he is acting in good faith u...

On that point, does my right hon. Friend agree that there have been discussions about the difficu...

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for mentioning that case. Given the nature of probation service b...

The right hon. Gentleman is making a very interesting speech. I am sorry that I missed its beginn...

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for raising that matter, which just exacerbates and adds to our co...

It is a pleasure to follow my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson). He has great ex...

The first point I want to make to the hon. Lady is that the proposals we are discussing do not co...

I fear that the Minister may have misunderstood me. When I spoke about young people, I meant thos...

May I begin by endorsing entirely what the hon. Member for Darlington (Jenny Chapman) and the rig...

If the Minister wants us to accept everything that he has said so far, will he explain why it was...

The pilots that we cancelled were not sufficiently close to the proposals that we are making for ...

The Minister is making a powerful case for why there needs to be reorganisation. However, will he...

I agree with my hon. Friend that it is important to keep existing staff informed about what is go...

I do not wish to take up too much time on this point, but the Minister will know that when that d...

Again—I made this point earlier when I intervened on the right hon. Gentleman—I do not think that...

Can we be clear? Lord Reid was not the Minister responsible when the 2007 Act was dealt with in t...

I understand the right hon. Gentleman’s point, but it is pretty clear that Lord Reid was speaking...

As someone who was present at that time, and who would count themselves as a reasonably good frie...

The hon. Gentleman is making a slightly different point. I am talking about what authority is giv...

The Minister unsurprisingly comes up with technical reasons why those proposals are deficient, bu...

I entirely understand what the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington is getting at, but I am afrai...

I just want to be clear about this, so that colleagues on both sides of the House can be clear. D...

The point I am making is that the rules, which pre-existed this Government by the way, are very c...

I just want to get this absolutely clear and on the record. What the Minister is saying is that t...

The hon. Gentleman needs to be very careful with his language. He needs to understand that someon...

I am grateful to the Minister for being generous in giving way, but does he not understand that t...

I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman’s characterisation of the Work programme, and anyway, as h...

Let me explain to the Minister why some of us feel strongly about this matter and why some of our...

I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concern, but I do not agree with his characterisation of Serco’...

Will the Minister give way?

In just a moment. The pilots that we are already undertaking—HMP Peterborough and Doncaster—are p...

I have a feeling that the Minister knows what I am going to ask him about payment by results. If ...

The hon. Lady keeps asking the same question and she is going to keep getting the same answer: th...

There is no clear read-across from Doncaster and Peterborough because those are voluntary schemes...

I would say two things to the right hon. Gentleman on that. First, he and his colleagues have bus...

The Minister talks of paying for the reform. We worked out that we could not afford it at the tim...

I have already explained to the hon. Lady that one of the commercial realities is that we do not ...

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

New clause 3—Veterans’ rehabilita...

To begin with, I shall briefly mention Government amendment 5. This welcome proposal deals with t...

Does my hon. Friend accept that there was a similar problem in the GP service? People with mental...

It is difficult to develop policy sensibly without having the information to inform decisions. On...

I am interested in what the hon. Lady has to say. In 2008, I went out, as an adviser to the Howar...

The right hon. Gentleman clearly has a great deal of experience and expertise in this area. I am ...

Does my hon. Friend agree that the experience in the United States shows that when such cases go ...

I agree with my hon. Friend, who has knowledge and expertise in this area. What he says could app...

I wish to speak to new clauses 2 and 3. As the hon. Member for Darlington (Jenny Chapman) has jus...

Is my hon. Friend aware that the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee visited Washington last summe...

I would be delighted to do that. My hon. Friend’s intervention reminds me just how much expertise...

I look forward to the results of the work that the hon. Gentleman is undertaking, which I know he...

That is a very important intervention. First, essentially we need to be looking at the base data....

rose—

I will give way for a final time.

Will my hon. Friend also recognise that in the United States of America all veterans are given a ...

That is a good point on which to conclude.

rose—

I can see that the hon. Lady wishes to intervene and I will let her do so.

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for taking an intervention from me as a Member who represents...

I thank the hon. Lady very much for her offer and I would love to take it up.

On the penult...

I add my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) and, in p...

I apologised to you in advance, Mr Deputy Speaker, but I apologise to you again for missing the b...

I have listened patiently to the hon. Gentleman, but with increasing exasperation. Has he made eq...

I am delighted; I am trying not to go off the scent, so to speak, but perhaps you will allow me, ...

I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for taking a second intervention so promptly. When did h...

I would be delighted to visit Northern Ireland. As it happens, I have been a regular visitor to p...

I, too, have listened with great patience to the hon. Gentleman and have considered whether it is...

To be perfectly honest—I am trying to think of the polite way to describe that—what the hon. Lady...

I am interested in what my hon. Friend says, but some of those figures on female offending seem r...

Absolutely. My hon. Friend is making my point for me. Some 95% of people in prison are men. If 95...

The previous speaker should not read anything into the silence in the Chamber. It was not acquies...

May I draw attention to what is happening in Midlothian, where Police Scotland has been giving ou...

That is precisely the point of the joint group, and I am proud to say that the police force where...

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that there is a particular issue with the reserves? For those...

Yes, and actually, as one who follows these things, I know that, interestingly, an increasing num...

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the American experience shows not only that such courts ...

Yes, there is. In addition, ex-service personnel are not used to paying regular bills and so on, ...

I shall speak briefly to new clauses 2 and 3. I congratulate the hon. Member for Barnsley Central...

I rise to speak with far less authority and experience than has been displayed by those who have ...

I want to speak in support of new clauses 2 and 3 and in support of veterans.

About five ye...

I will be as brief as I can, Madam Deputy Speaker, because I am aware that the Minister needs to ...

I apologise in advance to those who have participated in this interesting and useful debate, beca...

rose—

The hon. Lady will have to be brief.

What I have to say is very pertinent. If there is no enabling clause in this Bill to bring forwar...

I want to come to the timetable. Without wishing to get into too much detail on these probing ame...

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the clause.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Third time.

I thank all right hon. and hon. Memb...

I intend to keep my comments short. The Bill has many worthy objectives that we support, although...

The right hon. Gentleman is right that time was short, but I got the chance to say that it would ...

I am grateful to the Minister for setting out the six-month time scale.

No one can disagree...

We may be going slightly off track, Mr Speaker, but may I just point out that the Work programme ...

That is totally irrelevant to the Third Reading of the Bill.

I wish the Justice Secretary was right, but he is not.

Imagine that shambolic record being ...

I originally intended to make a full contribution at this stage, but a great deal has been said a...

I pay tribute to the hon. Lady’s stoicism and fortitude in not allowing matters beyond her contro...

I hope I do not suffer a sex change, which with this moustache would be awful to see!

When ...

I hope that I can help the right hon. Gentleman. Two sets of statistics have been published. The ...

I thank the Justice Secretary for his response, and I am sure that he is right about mentoring. I...

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. With the leave of the House. [Laughter.]

I am given to und...

All is now clear. I think that the House is grateful to the right hon. Member for North East Bedf...