UK Parliament / Open data

Localism Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Thursday, 30 June 2011, in the House of Lords.
Localism Bill. Lords committee stage fourth day. Clauses 42 to 59 agreed to, with clauses 42, 43, 44, 47, 57, 58 agreed to as amended.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

728 c1865-82, c1906-72 

Session

2010-12

Department

Department for Communities and Local Government

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Related items

Localism Bill. Brought from the Commons. In two volumes. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 71-EN also published.
Thursday, 19 May 2011
Bills
House of Lords
Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. Sixteenth report on the Localism Bill - Parts 4 to 8. (Lords Minutes).
Wednesday, 29 June 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 728 c1969-70 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. I was not suggesting that the noble Lord would have judged council tax to be one of those th...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1967 (Link to this contribution) 129J: Clause 58, page 45, line 40, at end insert— ““““special-case petition”” has the meaning given ...

Show all contributions (161)
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1966 (Link to this contribution) 129G: Clause 57, page 45, line 1, leave out from ““Authority,”” to ““by”” in line 2 and insert ““a f...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 728 c1968-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we should thank the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, for introducing this clause stand part debat...
Lord Shipley | 728 c1967-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will speak to this clause on behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Tope, and will address some ...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1963-4 (Link to this contribution) It is something like that. I do not think that it was extended to 10 pm; it might be only until 8 pm...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1965-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is an important area. The Bill that addresses localism must indeed address the issue ...
Earl of Lytton | 728 c1964-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I welcome the amendment in so far as it opens up an opportunity to make a contribution on ...
Earl Attlee | 728 c1972 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord has asked an important question. There will be provisions to ensure that sm...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1972 (Link to this contribution) The Minister mentioned parish and town councils. I think he said that only a small number would be c...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 728 c1972 (Link to this contribution) I touched on non-domestic rates and localisation, and how that regime would sit alongside the regime...
Earl Attlee | 728 c1970-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Shipley for giving me the opportunity to promote the...
Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 728 c1956 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment proposed is: "““Page 42, line 10, leave out subsections (3) to (5)””."
Lord Beecham | 728 c1956 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord might look at Clause 52(4), which seems to give the relevant discretion.
Lord True | 728 c1956 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for that, my Lords. I was dazzled by the sun and by my noble friend’s arguments. I do no...
Lord Beecham | 728 c1956 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord will become very familiar with that sort of drafting in the course of discussions on ...
Lord True | 728 c1956 (Link to this contribution) I noticed that but thought it an extraordinarily strange piece of drafting. It says that you must wa...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1957 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that and will certainly do so on that assurance. I clearly put these down as probi...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1956-7 (Link to this contribution) First, I heard what my noble friend said about the word ““misleading”” in the Bill and will reflect ...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1954-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendments in this group need not detain us for long. They have been tabled to probe t...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 728 c1961-2 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord have a view on whether local authorities should be able to campaign on council t...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1961 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to noble Lords for the discussion. It is an indication of the complexity of the issue ...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1960-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the debate has shown that this is a complex and sensitive area. We would certainly not wan...
Lord Beecham | 728 c1959-60 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I echo the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord True. This is difficult territory. The Bill as...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1963 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the purpose of this stand part debate and of Amendment 129F is to have an exploratory disc...
Earl Cathcart | 728 c1962-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on Tuesday, when we discussed whether 5 per cent was the appropriate figure to call refere...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1962 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I would. Although it is important that local authorities should not get involved in party-polit...
Lord True | 728 c1959 (Link to this contribution) I know that the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, wishes to speak briefly: I, too, will speak briefly. I do ...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1957-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment probes the material about the referendum and the question published by the ...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1957 (Link to this contribution) 128X: Clause 53, page 43, line 9, leave out subsections (4) and (5)
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1865 (Link to this contribution) 120A: Clause 42, page 37, line 25, at end insert ““, and (c) if the petition is a special-case petit...
Lord Avebury | 728 c1869 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend remarked on new subsection (4) and the barrier against presenting any petition relat...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1867-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have one amendment in this group—Amendment 128EZA—that I will speak to. I will not speak...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1870 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not sure that it is my job to give a definitive view of what the legislation means. A...
Lord Soley | 728 c1870-1 (Link to this contribution) I am going to intervene very briefly. First, I apologise to the House for not having been involved i...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1879 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for all that. I have forgotten what I was going to say. What was the first of those th...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1879 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, the noble Lord is asking me to do his remembering for him. I have enough of a job to rem...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1879 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is quite right; I remember what it was now. I was so carried out away by the Minister...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1880 (Link to this contribution) If I remember correctly, my noble friend asked me if the Government had a list of these things. The ...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 728 c1881 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend sits down and the experts start coming in, I welcome the clarity of his state...
Lord Soley | 728 c1881-2 (Link to this contribution) I again apologise. I would not normally come back on this issue, but it is very important. The job o...
Lord Beecham | 728 c1880 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for that information. Would he consider the issue of a per capita amou...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1880-1 (Link to this contribution) That is a suggestion that we would like to consider. It is the spirit of this Committee that we appr...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 728 c1871 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, declaring once again my wife’s interest as a councillor and, I suppose, my interest in my ...
Lord True | 728 c1871-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I might try to comment on the important points made by my noble friend Lord Newton of Brai...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 728 c1873-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I want to make only three points at this stage of the debate. We are here on the fourth da...
Lord Tope | 728 c1875-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I associate myself very much with all three substantive points that the noble Lord, Lord J...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 728 c1876 (Link to this contribution) If my noble friend would allow me, I have already expressed my contrition. I did so at Second Readin...
Lord Tope | 728 c1876 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is forgiven: blessed is the sinner that repenteth. He is absolutely right in what he ...
Lord Beecham | 728 c1876-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, remember the noble Lord in his days as Secretary of State for the Environment. He ...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1878-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this has been an interesting debate and I take it as a general welcome for the Government’...
Lord Beecham | 728 c1879 (Link to this contribution) Less than completely, presumably.
Baroness Hanham | 728 c1912 (Link to this contribution) 120D: Clause 43, page 38, line 8, after ““44),”” insert— ““(ba) where the principal local authority ...
Baroness Hanham | 728 c1912 (Link to this contribution) 120F: Clause 43, page 38, line 12, leave out from ““though”” to end of line 14 and insert ““— (a) wh...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1911 (Link to this contribution) Indeed I can confirm that, and I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, because both he and my n...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1911-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to everyone who has taken part in this short debate and for what the Ministe...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1915 (Link to this contribution) 120H: Clause 43, page 38, line 39, at end insert ““or (iii) a parish.””
Lord Greaves | 728 c1915-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this simple amendment would allow a referendum to take place in the area of a parish counc...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1914-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before we consider the implications of these amendments, it is important to remember that ...
Lord Rennard | 728 c1915 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his clarification of government thinking on these issues...
Lord Rennard | 728 c1912 (Link to this contribution) 120G: Clause 43, page 38, line 20, at end insert— ““( ) In order to comply with this section a petit...
Lord Rennard | 728 c1912-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment stands in my name and in the name of my noble friend Lord Greaves. I shall ...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1882 (Link to this contribution) I assure the noble Lord that the Executive—or the Government—have no control at all over the conduct...
Baroness Hanham | 728 c1906 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would just say that in the Library are a number of documents which have been laid for th...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1906 (Link to this contribution) 120B: Clause 42, page 37, line 26, leave out subsection (3)
Lord Tope | 728 c1910 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. Unless I missed it, I do not think that he addressed t...
Lord True | 728 c1910 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to my noble friend for missing his opening remarks. I referred to this on an earlier ame...
Earl Cathcart | 728 c1910-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I cannot quite understand where we are, which is why I got up before. Earlier this week I ...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1906-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in moving Amendment 120B, I shall speak also to the other eight amendments in this group, ...
Lord Beecham | 728 c1908 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I endorse most of what the noble Lord has suggested. In particular I entirely concur with ...
Earl Cathcart | 728 c1908 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I may have misunderstood, but regarding this business about local councils calling for ref...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1908-10 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this debate and indeed the noble Lord, ...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1923-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may start by saying that the Government are inclined, as I indicated, to accept ...
Lord Beecham | 728 c1923 (Link to this contribution) I bet the noble Lord’s pardon: that is right. I withdraw my last remarks and accept the noble Lord’s...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1923 (Link to this contribution) I may have misread the Bill, but my understanding is that the Bill states that they cannot be part o...
Lord Beecham | 728 c1922-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as a preliminary point I refer again to the issue raised this morning with regard to the D...
Lord Rennard | 728 c1919-20 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment addresses another issue of serious concern regarding the potential for abus...
Lord Rennard | 728 c1919 (Link to this contribution) 124E: After Clause 44, insert the following new Clause— ““Offence of paying for signatures (1) A per...
Lord True | 728 c1921-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I fear that I rather agree with the noble Lord opposite. There is always a risk in creatin...
Lord Rennard | 728 c1921 (Link to this contribution) Briefly, no problem seems to occur in elections. The paid staff of parties, as the noble Lord will w...
Lord Collins of Highbury | 728 c1921 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, made a point in moving the amendment about the payment to in...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1920-1 (Link to this contribution) I will speak to Amendments 129B and 129C, which are in this group. They refer to Clause 54, which re...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1918 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend for making the point more strongly and better than I did. There is ...
Lord Taylor of Goss Moor | 728 c1918 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support my noble friend on this. The issue is not whether the matter is one which lies wi...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1919 (Link to this contribution) 124B: Clause 44, page 39, line 2, at end insert— ““(1A) Subject to subsection (2), ““the required pe...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1918 (Link to this contribution) 121A: Clause 44, page 39, line 2, leave out ““as follows”” and insert ““to subsection (2),”” Amendm...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1919 (Link to this contribution) 124D: Clause 44, page 39, line 3, after ““(1)”” insert ““or (1A)”” Amendment 124D agreed. Clause 4...
Earl of Lytton | 728 c1916 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, will doubtless have expected that the words ““parish council...
Lord Taylor of Goss Moor | 728 c1916-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have a particular interest in this amendment because parishes in many rural communities ...
Lord True | 728 c1916 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on this point there is of course a fundamental difference between how parishes are viewed ...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1917-8 (Link to this contribution) My difficulty is that I do not know what that regime might be, or even what the Government are talki...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1917 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think that I can respond positively. I say to my noble friend and namesake that I do not...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1926 (Link to this contribution) I think the agent would be in danger of falling foul of this amendment, not this clause. That is an ...
Lord Rennard | 728 c1926 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps there is not an easy answer to the question just posed by the noble Lord, Lord New...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1925 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend decides whether or not to divide the House, I should say that these are extre...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 728 c1925-6 (Link to this contribution) Before anybody says anything else, may I pick up on something which my noble friend Lord Greaves sai...
Baroness Valentine | 728 c1930 (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest as chief executive of London First, which includes businesses that may be affe...
Lord Beecham | 728 c1929 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, with respect to the noble Lord, the first amendment is an unnecessary addition to the resp...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 728 c1927-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am happy we should also discuss my Amendments 128EA and 129CA. So far in this discussion...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 728 c1927 (Link to this contribution) 126ZA: Clause 46, page 40, line 3, at end insert— ““(6) Before determining whether it is appropriate...
Lord Beecham | 728 c1930 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord not agree that in matters of the significance and complexity to which he and the...
Earl of Lytton | 728 c1930 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I had not expected to speak on this amendment, but I think the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, ra...
Earl of Lytton | 728 c1930-1 (Link to this contribution) In response to the very wise comments of the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, it may well be a cumbersome w...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 728 c1931 (Link to this contribution) I am going to speak in support of what my noble friend Lord Beecham said. It is the mention of airpo...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 728 c1931 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise to my noble friend but tempted again I have been—on this occasion just to show...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1931-2 (Link to this contribution) I have been rather eager to stand because I feel that this gets to the nub of the issue. I am not en...
Baroness Valentine | 728 c1932 (Link to this contribution) I was aware that the noble Lord had introduced the amendments and I am delighted that he did.
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 728 c1932-3 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all those who have expressed their views so frankly on this group of amendments. Of...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1932 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful. I take on board what the noble Baroness said but noble Lords opposite and my nob...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1933-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have been listening to the wonderful words of the Minister about how important it is tha...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1933 (Link to this contribution) 126A: Clause 47, page 40, line 8, leave out subsection (2)
Lord Beecham | 728 c1935-7 (Link to this contribution) I will speak to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, but also to my own Amendment 126CA, w...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1940 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is absolutely right. The law is the law, and if people break the law, they break the la...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1940 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I may have misunderstood my noble friend. I have listened to what he is saying, and there ...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1939-40 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will think carefully about whether to withdraw it. Clearly I am not going to win on some...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1938-9 (Link to this contribution) This has been a useful debate. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, for opening it, b...
Lord True | 728 c1937 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would also like to warn against this. Although I have some sympathy with some of the ame...
Lord Lucas | 728 c1941 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Minister has got ahead of us on this with Amendment 128E being debated rather earlier ...
Earl of Lytton | 728 c1941-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as I explained to the Minister earlier today, I think that Amendment 128E has largely cove...
Baroness Hanham | 728 c1940 (Link to this contribution) 126G: Clause 47, page 40, line 25, leave out from ““ground”” to ““is”” in line 27 Amendment 126G ag...
Lord Lucas | 728 c1941 (Link to this contribution) 127: Clause 47, page 40, line 28, at end insert— ““( ) The fifth ground is that the referendum quest...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1944 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful for this opportunity as it was a key area and the decision to table the amen...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 728 c1943-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak briefly to the amendments, and say that we are with the noble Lords, Lord Be...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1944-5 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for assisting me. Knitting it into the neighbourhood planning proposals is cl...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 728 c1944 (Link to this contribution) We appreciate what the Minister has said because we are likely to get into planning issues next week...
Lord Best | 728 c1942 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment 128B is in my name. I do not think that we have given the Government enough cred...
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe | 728 c1943 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope that you will forgive me for intervening as I did not speak on Second Reading. Unde...
Lord True | 728 c1945 (Link to this contribution) May I briefly assist the Committee and perhaps my noble friend if I made it clear that Clause 47(6),...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1945 (Link to this contribution) Again my noble friend makes a valuable contribution and points out how complex this is going to be i...
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe | 728 c1945 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for helping me to differentiate between charges and fines. I was ind...
Lord Lucas | 728 c1946 (Link to this contribution) I want to just stand here and feel happy for a bit, but I will beg leave to withdraw my amendment. ...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1946 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, U-turns are allowed nowadays in politics, are they not? I will correct an answer that I ga...
Lord Lucas | 728 c1945-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is a pity. I hope that my noble friend, as he is in letter-writing mood, will let the...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1945 (Link to this contribution) I can say to the noble Lord that the first indication I had about the correct response had a simple ...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1948-50 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in moving the amendment I will say how nice it is to see the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Al...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1948 (Link to this contribution) 128H: Clause 48, page 41, line 8, leave out subsection (5)
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1947-8 (Link to this contribution) 128F: Clause 48, page 41, line 1, after ““referendum,”” insert ““and (b) the petition is not a speci...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1946-7 (Link to this contribution) 128E: After Clause 47, insert the following new Clause— ““Petitions: special cases in which holding ...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1950 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may help the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker. She may not be aware that one of the governmen...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1951 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps in continuing to respond to this set of amendments the answer might become clearer. The nobl...
Lord Tope | 728 c1951 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is exactly my point. I thought that the Minister had just given the reason which the ...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1952 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the support from my noble friend and others, and for the fairly emollient response...
Lord Tope | 728 c1951-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. I suspect that as he was speaking he was remembering many...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1953 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, government Amendment 129G makes a change to Clause 57. The purpose is to make it clear tha...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1953 (Link to this contribution) 128K: Clause 49, page 41, line 20, leave out ““arrange for a meeting”” and insert ““— (a) if the aut...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1954 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend for that observation. It is a matter of the precision of the language, and t...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1953-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have two amendments in the group, Amendments128L and 128M. Amendment 128L says ““arrange...
Lord Beecham | 728 c1951 (Link to this contribution) Why could the local authority not say that it is not elaborating because of confidentiality or the H...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1954 (Link to this contribution) 128N: Clause 49, page 41, line 22, leave out ““meeting must be held”” and insert ““arrangements unde...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1969 (Link to this contribution) I think I said ““underpinning a minimum level of service””. I certainly would not apply it to counci...
Earl Attlee | 728 c1972 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is a weensy bit technical for me. Some amendments deal with non-domestic rates. If th...
Lord Lucas | 728 c1938 (Link to this contribution) I would add that Amendment 128D also gives authorities a complete get-out: they simply say that they...
Lord Greaves | 728 c1954 (Link to this contribution) 128S: Clause 51, page 42, line 10, leave out subsections (3) to (5)
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 728 c1866-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we now return to the debates which we had the other evening in Committee on the new extens...
Lord True | 728 c1942-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorry to strike a discordant note, but I strongly disagree with aspects of the remark...
Baroness Whitaker | 728 c1950 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, some noble Lords may think that my one question for the Minister might have sat more easil...

Subjects

Community development
Costs
Council tax
Increases
Local government
Planning
Public consultation
Publicity
Referendums
Parish and town councils
Petitions

Legislation

Localism Bill 2010-12

Link

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