UK Parliament / Open data

European Union Bill

European Union Bill. Lords committee stage third day. Clause 4: Cases where treaty or Article 48(6) decision attracts a referendum, agreed to.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

727 c339-48, c359-409, c424-52 

Session

2010-12

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Proceeding contributions

Lord Triesman | 727 c396-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I appreciate the question. With respect, I think that the noble Baroness is conflating the...
Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 727 c397 (Link to this contribution) I agree with every word that the noble Lord has said about trade and the importance of getting a wor...

Show all contributions (174)
Lord Waddington | 727 c393 (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 23ZB withdrawn. Amendment 23A not moved. Amendme...
Lord Triesman | 727 c393 (Link to this contribution) 23B: Page 4, line 7, at end insert— ““( ) provisions that strengthen the effectiveness of the Europe...
Lord Triesman | 727 c393-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, with some regret, I think I am bound to irritate the noble Lord, Lord Howell, but I hope I...
Baroness Falkner of Margravine | 727 c395 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may interpose a thought on this important point. My noble friend Lord Lamont several times...
Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 727 c389 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that the noble Lord is going to be disappointed.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c392 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, can the Minister give us any idea of the quantum at stake in this amendment, given the Eur...
Lord Howell of Guildford | 727 c392-3 (Link to this contribution) I do not think it is possible to quantify what will happen, what is happening or what has happened. ...
Lord Lea of Crondall | 727 c381 (Link to this contribution) This is the most important point in the Bill. Are the Government now saying that if the Lisbon treat...
Lord Liddle | 727 c382 (Link to this contribution) I think the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, is trying to distort the position that I have put forward. I a...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c381-2 (Link to this contribution) I was not aware that any of these clauses in any way undermined the Lisbon treaty. The noble Lord, L...
Lord Liddle | 727 c382-3 (Link to this contribution) We can have academic debates about these questions in other places, and I do not want to delay the C...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c382 (Link to this contribution) It is my great regret that for 13 years under the previous Labour Government the balance of public o...
Lord Liddle | 727 c383 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is right, of course, but it seems to me that on judicial co-operation, for instance, ...
Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 727 c383 (Link to this contribution) What sort of policy proposals would the noble Lord want the emergency brake lifted for? Given that t...
Lord Liddle | 727 c384 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness comes to my aid and makes good points, for which I thank her. I shall withdraw th...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 727 c383 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I may suggest a response to the noble Lord. One example that we on this Bench have discu...
Lord Waddington | 727 c384 (Link to this contribution) 23ZB: Clause 4, page 4, line 3, leave out paragraph (a)
Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 727 c377-8 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry that the noble Lord’s absence from earlier debates has not enabled him to catch up with w...
Lord Blackwell | 727 c377 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for his clarification. However, he talks about trust, and I have to ...
Lord Liddle | 727 c376-7 (Link to this contribution) I am not saying that at all. I am saying that we should not tie ourselves up indefinitely in the nee...
Lord Blackwell | 727 c376 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I must apologise to the House and the Minister for having been unable to contribute to the...
Lord Flight | 727 c379 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it seems to me that the three areas where the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, is suggesting the l...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c379 (Link to this contribution) There has been much support in our debates so far against referendums for all but the most important...
Baroness Falkner of Margravine | 727 c378-9 (Link to this contribution) I seek some clarification on the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Liddle. It seems to wish to get r...
Lord Blackwell | 727 c378 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. Actually, I am fully aware of the nature of these amend...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c380-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have had a series of rather general debates, some of which relate to the amendment unde...
Lord Williamson of Horton | 727 c379-80 (Link to this contribution) I pose a question to the Minister and not just to join side 1 or side 2, which is a feature of Commi...
Lord Brittan of Spennithorne | 727 c388 (Link to this contribution) I am not making any statement about whether or not any particular provision was codification. I am t...
Lord Waddington | 727 c388 (Link to this contribution) Is my noble friend therefore saying that in the new article inserted in the treaty by Lisbon there w...
Lord Brittan of Spennithorne | 727 c388 (Link to this contribution) I assure my noble friend that whether or not that is a good thing or a bad thing—I have a lot of sym...
Lord Blackwell | 727 c388 (Link to this contribution) This is the one amendment this evening with which I confess that I have some sympathy. My interpreta...
Lord Brittan of Spennithorne | 727 c387 (Link to this contribution) Just one moment—not the way in which that has come about either in this country or elsewhere. In the...
Lord Brittan of Spennithorne | 727 c388 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that that is the case. The question is: is it codification or not? That is the questi...
Lord Waddington | 727 c387-8 (Link to this contribution) Is not my noble friend at loggerheads with the noble Lord, Lord Hannay? The noble Lord, Lord Hannay,...
Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 727 c389 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will now argue against the amendment on substance, having dealt with the ancient history...
Lord Blackwell | 727 c388-9 (Link to this contribution) I said that I had some sympathy with the amendment, and I very much hope that the Minister will be a...
Lord Waddington | 727 c389 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the noble Lord will appreciate from the very fact that I am not pursuing the amendment t...
Lord Radice | 727 c386 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for giving way, but what the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, made clear was that thi...
Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 727 c385-6 (Link to this contribution) As a member of the EU Sub-Committee that was the author of that example, I should enlighten the nobl...
Lord Waddington | 727 c385 (Link to this contribution) That is the example that comes to mind. There are three or four of them in the Lisbon treaty, but I ...
Lord Dykes | 727 c385 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for interrupting. Can the noble Lord give any other examples, apart from the CFSP?
Lord Waddington | 727 c384-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will not detain the Committee for very long. At first sight one might think that this am...
Lord Brittan of Spennithorne | 727 c387 (Link to this contribution) With great respect to my noble friends Lord Waddington and Lord Lamont, I do not think that they are...
Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 727 c386-7 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend Lord Waddington is to be congratulated on and thanked for raising an extremely impor...
Lord Waddington | 727 c386 (Link to this contribution) That is nothing to do with the case that I have raised. I am saying that the Bill deals with all sor...
Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 727 c362 (Link to this contribution) I am anxious to sit down, but I will give way to the noble Lord.
Lord Tomlinson | 727 c362 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the noble Lord can help me. He explained that in a number of areas power had gone to Brussel...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c362 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is speaking from the Gangway and is therefore not in order.
Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 727 c362 (Link to this contribution) I would say that the setting up of the European financial stability mechanism using Article 122 of t...
Lord Dykes | 727 c362-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I suggest that my noble friend Lord Lamont was doing himself down when he referred to 1998...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 727 c364 (Link to this contribution) When I was a Commissioner, we made it imperative to listen to the many people who had views about Eu...
Lord Dykes | 727 c364 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for that intervention because it reminds me of the series of visits ...
Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 727 c362 (Link to this contribution) I do not accept that. I agree that it is designed to have an impact on the future and to prevent the...
Lord Flight | 727 c364 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for giving way. In view of his assessment of public opinion, is he therefore ...
Lord Radice | 727 c360 (Link to this contribution) I am going to say something nice about the noble Lords if the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, will be quie...
Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 727 c361 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I frequently agree with some, but not all, the views put forward by the noble Lord, Lord S...
Lord Richard | 727 c361 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am terribly sorry that I gave the noble Lord 20 minutes’ thought. Nevertheless, may I pu...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c360-1 (Link to this contribution) We are in Committee and I do not think that I even have to say, ““Before the noble Lord sits down””....
Lord Taverne | 727 c362 (Link to this contribution) If my noble friend is saying that the present Government are not going to use these powers, the conc...
Lord Liddle | 727 c374 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I readily confess that in the annals of arcaneness this is a very arcane subject for an am...
Lord Howell of Guildford | 727 c375 (Link to this contribution) I certainly do not want to make a habit of too many interruptions, as we all know that debate in thi...
Lord Liddle | 727 c375-6 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has misunderstood what I have been trying to say. I apologise to the Committee if I hav...
Lord Taverne | 727 c371 (Link to this contribution) Is the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, not correct? If an accession reduces the voting po...
Lord Howell of Guildford | 727 c371-2 (Link to this contribution) It does not alter the fact that the United Kingdom will continue to have a veto, as other countries ...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 727 c372-3 (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate, particularly those who supported the amen...
Lord Howell of Guildford | 727 c370-1 (Link to this contribution) If one is talking about declarations or derogations within existing treaties and competences, that w...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 727 c371 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Lord for allowing me to interrupt him. This is a very important poin...
Lord Howell of Guildford | 727 c371 (Link to this contribution) It does not dilute our power to veto. Our power to veto is there unless it is removed by other trans...
Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 727 c370 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as the Minister has touched on this point so clearly, will he make it quite categorical th...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c367 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, can the noble Lord name a single European country that would have gone to war with another...
Lord Triesman | 727 c367-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was going to go through one or two. Certainly Serbia will serve the purpose. A number of...
Lord Dykes | 727 c367 (Link to this contribution) I will be brief. The noble Lord referred to the acquis. Would he not say how ironic, interesting and...
Lord Triesman | 727 c367 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the observation is completely accurate and adds weight to the point that I make, namely th...
Lord Dykes | 727 c364-5 (Link to this contribution) If my noble friend looks at the report of the Second Reading in Hansard, he will see that that point...
Lord Triesman | 727 c365-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I express my appreciation to all noble Lords who have spoken in the debate so far. I suppo...
Lord Dykes | 727 c364 (Link to this contribution) I assume that my noble friend was present during the Second Reading of the Bill.
Lord Radice | 727 c359-60 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend gets up, I rise to oppose both the tone and the principle of Amendment 20A. I...
Lord Richard | 727 c346-7 (Link to this contribution) I should like to make one or two brief points. I have listened with great care, as I always do, to t...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 727 c347-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the argument advanced in favour of a referendum appears to be based on the fear of Europea...
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon | 727 c346 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wish to make three basic points. First, the whole essence of the European Union Bill con...
Lord Tomlinson | 727 c345-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in some of the things that have been said so far on this amendment—an amendment to which I...
Lord Willoughby de Broke | 727 c345 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, and encourage him. There are res...
Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 727 c344-5 (Link to this contribution) I speak briefly against the amendment, pointing out two or three things. First, it is often overlook...
Lord Dubs | 727 c344 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I remember the day some years ago when the A8 countries joined the EU. A celebration at Du...
Baroness Brinton | 727 c343 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, fascinating though the discussion about chocolate and whisky has been, I should like to re...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c342-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my name is to the amendment. I support it and congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, ...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 727 c340 (Link to this contribution) 20A: Clause 4, page 3, line 40, at end insert— ““( ) the accession of a new member State””
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 727 c340-1 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness. It may be convenient for the House if I speak also to Amendment 23A. It...
Lord Waddington | 727 c342 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I want Turkey and other states to accede but, like many others, I worry about whether a re...
Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 727 c445 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that the noble Lord is yet again misleading the House. The waters did not belong to Brit...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c445 (Link to this contribution) Yes, but we should not have gone along with that decision because we should not have been in the pol...
Lord Deben | 727 c445 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord really must not say that. It is not true. Most of our fishing grounds have always bee...
Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 727 c450 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but no one, as far as I know, has tabled an amendment to Cla...
Lord Howell of Guildford | 727 c450-1 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, who is very skilled in these matters, knows that he is putting the question upside d...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c445 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord and those of his view have been saying this now for 30 years. It has not happened and...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 727 c445-6 (Link to this contribution) I do not know in which amendment the common fisheries policy arises, but I have to tell the noble Lo...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c446 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, when we leave the European Union, we will not do as the noble Lord, Lord Davies, suggests....
Lord Howell of Guildford | 727 c446-50 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps your Lordships would welcome it if we began to come to the end of this enormous debate. I ag...
Lord Taverne | 727 c442 (Link to this contribution) I was not arguing that we should join the euro today. On the earlier question, I defer to my noble f...
Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 727 c442-3 (Link to this contribution) I think the stress tests refer to capital rather than liquidity, which is a slightly shorter-term is...
Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 727 c441-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I want to make one simple and brief point, but before I do that perhaps I may respond part...
Baroness Brinton | 727 c444 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I fundamentally disagree with that point. The key point here, which we have come back to d...
Baroness Brinton | 727 c444 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention from my noble friend Lord Wallace, which was much more informed ...
Lord Deben | 727 c444 (Link to this contribution) It was a perfectly right intervention but that does not actually give powers to compel. It says that...
Lord Deben | 727 c444 (Link to this contribution) Very simply, the EU does not have powers to insist that we improve the electricity transfer between ...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c444 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Article 170 says: "““To help achieve the objectives referred to in Articles 26 and 174””,"...
Lord Grenfell | 727 c443 (Link to this contribution) I hesitate to intervene at this late hour but what the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, has just said provok...
Baroness Brinton | 727 c443-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I absolutely agree that the policy areas set out in these amendments are important for deb...
Lord Judd | 727 c435-6 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is absolutely right. That was a powerful argument, well put, and one with which I fou...
Lord Taverne | 727 c436-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the previous two speakers eloquently demonstrated the importance of these amendments. They...
Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 727 c437-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will address Amendments 23C, 23D and 23E, as did the noble Lord, Lord Deben, who gave us...
Lord Empey | 727 c438 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. A lot has been talked this evening about energy. May...
Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 727 c438-9 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid to say that I believe that the noble Lord is wrong on this. He has used a particular exa...
Lord Willoughby de Broke | 727 c439-40 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on the issue of climate change, the subject of the amendment that we are supposed to be ta...
Lord Willoughby de Broke | 727 c441 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord says, ““happily we are going to close down””. I hope that he has got a generator in h...
Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 727 c441 (Link to this contribution) I merely want to congratulate the noble Lord on having raised the issue of gas storage, which is a s...
Lord Willoughby de Broke | 727 c441 (Link to this contribution) Surely it could be up to the nation member states to impose their own minimum gas storage obligation...
Lord Deben | 727 c434-5 (Link to this contribution) That would mean that we had no common trade policy. Every country could say that this decision was c...
Lord Deben | 727 c426 (Link to this contribution) What would the referendum question be, were such a suggestion to be made? Would that referendum ques...
Lord Liddle | 727 c426-7 (Link to this contribution) Yes, the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, is right about that. We are not talking about that but it could ...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 727 c427-30 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the most important theme emerging from the contribution on this side of the Committee to t...
Lord Liddle | 727 c426 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Deben, has made an apposite intervention. I do not know what the relevant quest...
Lord Deben | 727 c432-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it might encourage your Lordships’ House to hear that I do not intend to talk about piracy...
Baroness Falkner of Margravine | 727 c433-4 (Link to this contribution) I wanted to make a point about his example and did not want him to lose his train of thought. If the...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c431 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise if the noble Lord thought I was scowling at him. I was looking at him in some ...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 727 c431-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the noble Lord’s contribution. I said that it was how some people felt. That was t...
Lord Liddle | 727 c451-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I fear that in trying to be helpful to the Government in helping the business in Committee...
Lord Triesman | 727 c408-9 (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords for the contributions to the debate, in particular the noble Baroness, Lady ...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 727 c408 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that response which seems to reveal that there is potential for a complete absurdi...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c407-8 (Link to this contribution) I have spent a good deal of my adult life studying and teaching on the European Union. I struggle to...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 727 c407 (Link to this contribution) I did not want to interrupt the noble Lord’s flow while he was speaking, but I have a rather importa...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c405-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in that case, perhaps I may give the Government’s response on this group. We will then be ...
Lord Triesman | 727 c405 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have been urged by the usual channels to make sure that the business is handled as effe...
Lord Taverne | 727 c405 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, some very important issues are raised by these amendments. If they are now to be considere...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c405 (Link to this contribution) I understood the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, to say that as this group and the following group of ame...
Lord Liddle | 727 c424 (Link to this contribution) 23C: Page 4, line 7, at end insert— ““( ) provisions that strengthen the effectiveness of the Europe...
Lord Liddle | 727 c424-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, with the permission of your Lordships, in order to expedite the business of the Committee—...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 727 c402-3 (Link to this contribution) I defer to the noble Lord’s deep knowledge of history, but he will accept that metaphors and similes...
Lord Willoughby de Broke | 727 c402 (Link to this contribution) All I want to say is that King Canute did not order the sea to go back. He was demonstrating to his ...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 727 c404 (Link to this contribution) I will not give way at the moment. I am in the middle of an argument. I will gladly give way to the ...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 727 c402 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that, which is exactly my view. Perhaps I might refer to what the noble Lord, Lord...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 727 c402 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may finish my sentence before I give way. The amendments in this group insist, to some ext...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c404 (Link to this contribution) Without wishing to detract in any way from the terrible situation to which the noble Baroness has so...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 727 c405 (Link to this contribution) In the case of prostitution, quite a lot of the entries are from eastern Europe. Indeed, some of the...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 727 c405 (Link to this contribution) On the first intervention, I got the impression that the noble Baroness thought that all five groups...
Lord Blackwell | 727 c397 (Link to this contribution) I confess that I am having some difficulty following the noble Lord’s argument on this point and I w...
Lord Triesman | 727 c397 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the intention of the amendment is to provide the scope for further adjustments to the trad...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c399-400 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to delay the House, but that is why I made the distinction between a customs union and...
Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 727 c398-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way, but I fear that he is in danger of misleading the Ho...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c398 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I speak against these amendments. Amendment 23B assumes that the EU single market is a goo...
Lord Triesman | 727 c398 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise if what I have said is not clear enough. My point at the very beginning of my ...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 727 c401-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend Lord Taverne and I have a difficulty. A number of speeches addressing this...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 727 c402 (Link to this contribution) As the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, recognised, and perhaps I may suggest, as this group and the group...
Lord Empey | 727 c400-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think we are straying back to a Second Reading debate, because we seem to have moved som...
Lord Waddington | 727 c386 (Link to this contribution) With the greatest respect to my noble friend, he is in error. There was an intergovernmental agreeme...
Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 727 c361-2 (Link to this contribution) It is not a question of not using the powers; they are there to serve a purpose. The Government have...
Lord Liddle | 727 c374 (Link to this contribution) 21: Page 3, line 43, leave out subsection (3)
Lord Howell of Guildford | 727 c389-92 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if there are no further comments from your Lordships on this issue, it remains for me to s...
Lord Howell of Guildford | 727 c369-70 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I begin by welcoming the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, to the forefront of the Opposition's c...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 727 c339 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are about to enter the Committee stage of the Bill. I know that the House will wish to ...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 727 c444-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Deben, was good enough to mention me in his few remarks and to accuse...
Lord Deben | 727 c440-1 (Link to this contribution) Might the noble Lord not suggest that there could be a better question: do the people of Britain wan...
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