UK Parliament / Open data

Bournemouth Borough Council Bill [Lords]

Debate on bills on Thursday, 21 January 2010, in the House of Commons.
Bournemouth Borough Council Bill (HL). Report stage. Debated with Manchester City Council Bill (HL). Debate adjourned. Debate to be resumed 28 January.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

504 c487-522 

Session

2009-10

Legislative stage

Report stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Commons chamber

Related items

Bournemouth Borough Council Bill (HL). Petition deposited by Sharpe Pritchard (vote)
Monday, 27 November 2006
Bills
House of Commons
Manchester City Council Bill (HL). Petition deposited by Sharpe Pritchard
Monday, 27 November 2006
Bills
House of Commons

Proceeding contributions

Speaker | 504 c522 (Link to this contribution) If that is in my power, I so order, but in any event the hon. Gentleman has made it absolutely clear...
John Butterfill | 504 c522 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. There was a problem during the Division on the closure moti...

Show all contributions (181)
Christopher Chope | 504 c522 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. How can we have the local knowledge? Pedlars up and down the country are in...
Edward Leigh | 504 c522 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend reply to my point, as he is perfectly entitled to do, in his winding-up remarks?...
Peter Bone | 504 c519-20 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I intend to be brief, as we have already gone into many of the subjec...
Edward Leigh | 504 c520-1 (Link to this contribution) I rise to support amendments 5 and 6. In a sense, the House of Commons is beginning to make itself l...
Christopher Chope | 504 c521 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend accept that the director of tourism agreed in our meeting on Monday that the are...
Edward Leigh | 504 c521 (Link to this contribution) I believe what my hon. Friend tells me, but if the area in question is the best one, why is it not i...
Speaker | 504 c521 (Link to this contribution) Order. This is very interesting, but it has nothing to do with the amendment.
Edward Leigh | 504 c521 (Link to this contribution) Of course I take your strictures, Mr. Deputy Speaker. To conclude, if the Bill is to be imposed, le...
Christopher Chope | 504 c521-2 (Link to this contribution) I am conscious that we have not had a substantive contribution to the debate from my hon. Friends th...
Speaker | 504 c522 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman has been given the opportunity to wind up, not to repeat his previous spee...
Christopher Chope | 504 c519 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that clarification. I had not realised that the proceedings were going to be as el...
Speaker | 504 c519 (Link to this contribution) I must say to the hon. Gentleman that amendment 4 is the paving amendment for the two other amendmen...
Speaker | 504 c519 (Link to this contribution) I hoped that I had made it clear that it will be possible to have a vote on amendment 7 to the Manch...
Christopher Chope | 504 c519 (Link to this contribution) No, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I will not withdraw amendment 4. I will seek to press amendment 4 to the vot...
Speaker | 504 c519 (Link to this contribution) The Question is, That the amendment be made. I call Mr. Peter Bone.
Christopher Chope | 504 c519 (Link to this contribution) My understanding is that, unless I propose an amendment, it will not be possible for the debate to c...
Speaker | 504 c519 (Link to this contribution) Yes, if the hon. Gentleman wishes the debate on amendment 4 to continue.
Speaker | 504 c519 (Link to this contribution) Order. That one is debated now, but would be voted on later, so the hon. Gentleman has to decide. I ...
Christopher Chope | 504 c519 (Link to this contribution) My understanding was that we were voting on amendments relating to both Bournemouth and Manchester—
Christopher Chope | 504 c518 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My peroration was going on for longer than it should have done. I sa...
Speaker | 504 c518 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman wish to press this amendment to a vote?
Christopher Chope | 504 c518 (Link to this contribution) I will move that amendment—the amendment that we introduced—formally now. Then, perhaps, later on, w...
Speaker | 504 c519 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman wishes to press those amendments that are connected with Bournemouth, perhaps ...
Speaker | 504 c518 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman is not following my guidance. We must come back to the points in question....
Speaker | 504 c518 (Link to this contribution) In that case, may we proceed?
Christopher Chope | 504 c518 (Link to this contribution) I certainly do not want to replicate the wider debate, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Let me bring us back to w...
Speaker | 504 c517 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) has been speaking for a considerable proportion ...
Edward Leigh | 504 c517 (Link to this contribution) The more I listen to my hon. Friend, the more it occurs to me that the provision that we are discuss...
Christopher Chope | 504 c517 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a persuasive argument, but the essential difference between these Bills and muc...
Christopher Chope | 504 c516-7 (Link to this contribution) It is significant that although we are debating amendments to both Bills, we have not—if my recollec...
Christopher Chope | 504 c516 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to risk falling out with my hon. Friends the Members for Bournemouth, East and for Bou...
Peter Bone | 504 c516 (Link to this contribution) I have heard the arguments about Bournemouth being a unique case, which I am prepared to accept, and...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 504 c512 (Link to this contribution) In his amendment, is not my hon. Friend setting up a canard in order to shoot it down? If the Bill i...
Christopher Chope | 504 c512 (Link to this contribution) The fact that this Bill, if implemented, will not apply to the whole of Bournemouth makes all the st...
Speaker | 504 c512 (Link to this contribution) Order. After that little flurry, let us get back to time and place, shall we?
Christopher Chope | 504 c512-3 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps not today. What my hon. Friend said then was that the evidence in the Durham report suggest...
Tobias Ellwood | 504 c513 (Link to this contribution) I do not follow this argument at all. If my hon. Friend has got the area wrong in the amendment, it ...
Christopher Chope | 504 c512 (Link to this contribution) The jury is out on whether there is a displacement problem. When I raised this issue on Second Readi...
Christopher Chope | 504 c513 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend, who unfortunately could not get to the meeting on Monday, even though he set it up, ...
Tobias Ellwood | 504 c513 (Link to this contribution) There would never be a meeting of minds given that my hon. Friend is trying to carve up my constitue...
Christopher Chope | 504 c513 (Link to this contribution) But it has to be done in accordance with national legislation, which sets out that an alcohol disord...
Christopher Chope | 504 c514 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reinforcing that point.
Peter Bone | 504 c513 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We are discussing an unusual process of giving a borough the rig...
Christopher Chope | 504 c513 (Link to this contribution) With the greatest of respect to my hon. Friend, it can be right, because we are talking about having...
Christopher Chope | 504 c514-5 (Link to this contribution) No, it definitely should not. We spoke earlier of derogations. Fortunately, we still have the freedo...
Tobias Ellwood | 504 c514 (Link to this contribution) I am still baffled as to how an hon. Member from a different part of the area can seek in an amendme...
Christopher Chope | 504 c514 (Link to this contribution) There is no evidence at all of an unlawful street trading problem in Boscombe. I therefore submit th...
Peter Bone | 504 c514 (Link to this contribution) I have one small technical question. Amendment 7 uses the distance of 1 mile, but in the rest of the...
Tobias Ellwood | 504 c515 (Link to this contribution) As a representative of Bournemouth, I can confirm that this amendment would be very damaging to the ...
Christopher Chope | 504 c515 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend was not at the meeting that I had at the town hall with Bournemouth borough council o...
Tobias Ellwood | 504 c515 (Link to this contribution) I ask my hon. Friend to withdraw this amendment because it would be madness to impose a time limit. ...
Christopher Chope | 504 c516 (Link to this contribution) I hear what my hon. Friends say, but when the director of tourism was asked about this issue in the ...
John Butterfill | 504 c516 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps my hon. Friend misunderstood what he was told by the director of tourism. Certainly we have ...
John Butterfill | 504 c516 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend: that is the word I was looking for. Holidays are taken throughout t...
Tobias Ellwood | 504 c503 (Link to this contribution) It was made in Committee, actually.
Edward Leigh | 504 c503 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Ellwood) suggesting that I am a stooge tryin...
Tobias Ellwood | 504 c505 (Link to this contribution) This has been a very long debate. May I place on record my concern that we could have had another 45...
Tobias Ellwood | 504 c505 (Link to this contribution) I will give way briefly, but we really need to make some progress on the Bill.
Speaker | 504 c503 (Link to this contribution) Order. My patience is now being strained.
Christopher Chope | 504 c503-5 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 19 is similar to amendment 18 in that it would leave out "bona fide" on page 4, line 11. I...
Christopher Chope | 504 c503 (Link to this contribution) Well, that is the first that I have heard of that suggestion.
Tobias Ellwood | 504 c503 (Link to this contribution) I am conscious of progress—or perhaps the lack of it, as we wander through the amendments—and hope t...
Christopher Chope | 504 c503 (Link to this contribution) I will stick to the amendment, and just note my hon. Friend's remarks. I am trying, through the ame...
Speaker | 504 c503 (Link to this contribution) Order. I encourage the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) to stick to the amendment before the...
Edward Leigh | 504 c502-3 (Link to this contribution) Again, that is a completely subjective test—it is not an objective test. Why does this Parliament ha...
Christopher Chope | 504 c508-9 (Link to this contribution) This is a smaller group of amendments. I hope that the sponsors of the Bill will show a little more ...
Speaker | 504 c508 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss amendments 5 and 6.
Christopher Chope | 504 c509 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that if this Bill reaches the statute book the proof of the pudding will be in the eating ...
John Butterfill | 504 c509 (Link to this contribution) I am a little offended on behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Ellwood) an...
Edward Leigh | 504 c509 (Link to this contribution) We used to have our party conference in Bournemouth, and I much preferred those great days. We would...
Christopher Chope | 504 c509 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Amendment 4 would insert the phrase""to the area of the Borough def...
Christopher Chope | 504 c509 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a really good point. Leaflets do not have to be sold in order to be issued by p...
Speaker | 504 c505 (Link to this contribution) Order. Can we stick to discussing the amendment before the House, and not go into what happened befo...
Tobias Ellwood | 504 c505 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is not correct. There was an objection made to our continuing with—
Tony Lloyd | 504 c506 (Link to this contribution) claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36). Question put forthwith, That the Question be n...
Tobias Ellwood | 504 c506 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend echoes the importance of pressing ahead with this legislation. We have already had vo...
Andrew Murrison | 504 c505-6 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend entirely. It is a pity that individual local authorities have to pursue ...
Tobias Ellwood | 504 c505 (Link to this contribution) There is a lot of history behind the Bill. We have debated it more than we have debated most of the ...
Speaker | 504 c507 (Link to this contribution) Order. I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby.
Peter Bone | 504 c498 (Link to this contribution) I am looking with some concern at clause 5(1)(a) and (b). Paragraph (a) refers to""visits from house...
Christopher Chope | 504 c498 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has misread that provision, because it applies to pedlars trading not from house to h...
Christopher Chope | 504 c498 (Link to this contribution) It is absolutely not designed to wreck the Bill; it is designed to improve the Bill.
Edward Leigh | 504 c498 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it in order to put down wrecking amendments?
Speaker | 504 c498 (Link to this contribution) If an amendment was put down and seen to be a wrecking amendment, it would not be called for debate....
Tobias Ellwood | 504 c497 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased that my hon. Friend has finally admitted that these are, in essence, wrecking amendment...
Christopher Chope | 504 c497-8 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. Not for the first time, two hon. Members have...
Tobias Ellwood | 504 c498 (Link to this contribution) With due respect to my hon. Friend and constituency neighbour, is he honestly saying that, in a peri...
Christopher Chope | 504 c497 (Link to this contribution) I was trying to go logically through the amendments, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We have dealt with amendmen...
Speaker | 504 c496-7 (Link to this contribution) Order. I understand that the hon. Gentleman is being tempted to move from amendment to amendment. He...
Christopher Chope | 504 c496 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend anticipates my amendment 9. Line 28 of page 3 says that after a pedlar has left a loc...
Edward Leigh | 504 c496 (Link to this contribution) What do people do when their five minutes is up? Do they take one step to the right, or 15 steps? We...
Peter Bone | 504 c496 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. He is being very generous. Will he explain a point t...
Edward Leigh | 504 c496 (Link to this contribution) All this is nonsense. Who is going to police all this rubbish of insisting that someone stays for fi...
Christopher Chope | 504 c496 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. The issues of seizure, penalties and enforcement are dealt with later. We m...
John Butterfill | 504 c495 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that my hon. Friend would agree that five minutes was what the Committee, after a lot of d...
Christopher Chope | 504 c495 (Link to this contribution) I accept what my hon. Friend says. That is why I am not going as far as to suggest 20 minutes, and w...
Christopher Chope | 504 c502 (Link to this contribution) I do not dissent from the use of the word "ludicrous". The existing wording however provides that th...
Christopher Chope | 504 c500-1 (Link to this contribution) It is, and I plead with the sponsors of the Bill to make some concession to common sense. As current...
Speaker | 504 c501 (Link to this contribution) Order. I say to the hon. Gentleman that the amendment is extremely clearly set out. Presumably he is...
Christopher Chope | 504 c501 (Link to this contribution) Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am very much for the amendment and against the contents of the measure.
Peter Bone | 504 c501 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is explaining the amendments in great detail. Would it be helpful to the House if on ...
Speaker | 504 c501 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am sure the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) is very experienced in these matters. ...
Christopher Chope | 504 c501 (Link to this contribution) Mr. Deputy Speaker, I live in anticipation of getting a helpful response from the Minister that woul...
Edward Leigh | 504 c501-2 (Link to this contribution) If one is 50 metres from a pedlar, what is all the fuss about? It is not as though high streets are ...
Christopher Chope | 504 c500 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes the plea that we have been making throughout the deliberations on these Bills. ...
Tobias Ellwood | 504 c499 (Link to this contribution) I think that common sense is something that we wandered away from some time ago. My hon. Friend has ...
Christopher Chope | 504 c499 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has multiplied my 15 minutes by 20 metres. He is saying that in any hour the pedlar w...
Andrew Murrison | 504 c498 (Link to this contribution) But the provision would apply, presumably, to the "lucky lavender" seller who peddles her wares—thro...
Christopher Chope | 504 c498-9 (Link to this contribution) It most certainly would apply to her, and my hon. Friend raises an important issue, because the Bill...
Edward Leigh | 504 c500 (Link to this contribution) We have the 1871 Act, and my hon. Friend is obviously in touch with the peddling community. If I wer...
Tobias Ellwood | 504 c499 (Link to this contribution) The Pedlars Act 1871 says that a pedlar""travels and trades on foot and goes from town to town"." F...
Christopher Chope | 504 c499 (Link to this contribution) With the greatest respect to my hon. Friend, it is for Parliament to legislate and for the judges to...
Speaker | 504 c511 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman telling the House that, therefore, he will be impeded as a pedlar?
Christopher Chope | 504 c511 (Link to this contribution) I hope, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that as a gentleman of good character if I applied for my pedlar's certi...
Edward Leigh | 504 c511-2 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making an important point that goes right to the heart of what we are talking abou...
Christopher Chope | 504 c512 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. These people will choose a different location for their pedlary...
John Butterfill | 504 c511 (Link to this contribution) Surely it is not beyond the wit of any reasonably prudent pedlars to inquire at the town hall whethe...
Christopher Chope | 504 c511 (Link to this contribution) If my hon. Friend looks at the evidence from the Opposed Private Bill Committee, he will find that h...
John Penrose | 504 c511 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that time may very well solve that problem? The growing ubiquity of person...
Christopher Chope | 504 c511 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend addresses somebody who is proud not to have a BlackBerry, so I am not quite sure abou...
Speaker | 504 c510 (Link to this contribution) Order. I suggest that that is not relevant to the amendments under discussion. We should be concentr...
Christopher Chope | 504 c510-1 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. To deal with the question of location, I shall refer to a conversatio...
Christopher Chope | 504 c495 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right and I shall not argue with him. The sad thing is that we are now...
Andrew Murrison | 504 c495 (Link to this contribution) It would, of course, depend on precisely what they were doing—if they were acting as a provider of s...
Christopher Chope | 504 c495 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention, because he makes a powerful point about havin...
Andrew Murrison | 504 c495 (Link to this contribution) I have been listening to my hon. Friend's remarks, which make some sense to me. Would it help if he ...
Peter Bone | 504 c494 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend that this amendment seeks to make an important minor change, which would...
Christopher Chope | 504 c494 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his support for my amendment. He will know that the word "locati...
Edward Leigh | 504 c493 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend had me worried a moment ago. He referred to bringing a horse or beast. Would his amen...
Christopher Chope | 504 c493-4 (Link to this contribution) Effectively, it would. My hon. Friend is an experienced practitioner of the law, and he knows that i...
Christopher Chope | 504 c493 (Link to this contribution) I agree. That is why I have made the suggestion in amendment No. 74, and that is why, when I discuss...
Christopher Chope | 504 c491-2 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend, but I am not sure that I would concede that pedlars bother people in th...
Christopher Chope | 504 c492 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is not correct about that. Under the existing law, they are entitled to take goods wi...
John Butterfill | 504 c492 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend not agree that his proposal in fact extends what pedlars can do under the curren...
Christopher Chope | 504 c492 (Link to this contribution) I am addressing amendment No. 74, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
Speaker | 504 c492 (Link to this contribution) Order. I want to ensure that I am following the hon. Gentleman's speech carefully. Which amendment i...
Speaker | 504 c492 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman seems to be talking about clause 5.
Christopher Chope | 504 c492-3 (Link to this contribution) I was merely trying to respond to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West,...
Speaker | 504 c492 (Link to this contribution) I assume that the hon. Gentleman is aware that clause 5 is dealt with in the next set of amendments....
Andrew Murrison | 504 c493 (Link to this contribution) As politicians, we know full well how easy it is to expand carrying capacity. Any one of us who has ...
Christopher Chope | 504 c487-8 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to move amendment 2, which is supported by four hon. Friends. With it, we will disc...
Speaker | 504 c487 (Link to this contribution) It will be for the convenience of the House if the amendments relating to the Manchester City Counci...
Tobias Ellwood | 504 c488-9 (Link to this contribution) We have had Bills from councils in other areas across the country, which are already in place as Act...
Christopher Chope | 504 c488 (Link to this contribution) I hope that my hon. Friend will be able to explain that point more clearly to me. As for the applica...
John Butterfill | 504 c488 (Link to this contribution) Surely leaving out clause 4, which would extend the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act ...
Edward Leigh | 504 c490 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend therefore arguing that a pedlar who is an EU citizen who is stopped in Bournemouth...
Christopher Chope | 504 c489 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted that my hon. Friend's interpretation is the same as mine. The Government are consult...
Peter Bone | 504 c489 (Link to this contribution) May I offer some clarification? We could not place restrictions on doctors coming in from the Europe...
Christopher Chope | 504 c489 (Link to this contribution) I think I am saying that, yes. The implementation of the directive serves as the automatic repeal of...
Andrew Murrison | 504 c489 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend therefore saying that since the enactment of the services directive, the measures ...
Christopher Chope | 504 c489 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that, but I am not sure that he understands my main point, which...
Edward Leigh | 504 c491 (Link to this contribution) This is the kernel of the matter. There is absolutely no point in driving small-scale pedlars off th...
Christopher Chope | 504 c490-1 (Link to this contribution) In fairness, I have not at any previous stage of our debates on this Bill raised an issue about clau...
Viscount Thurso | 504 c490 (Link to this contribution) I follow the hon. Gentleman's argument on the services directive; I shall wait to see whether it is ...
Christopher Chope | 504 c490 (Link to this contribution) It would certainly be unfair, if that were the position. I am not sure that my hon. Friend's interpr...
Peter Bone | 504 c505 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that my hon. Friend is quite correct. The three-hour limit would have been opposed if...
Christopher Chope | 504 c488 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to see that my hon. Friend is going to enlighten me about that.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 504 c517 (Link to this contribution) I assume that my hon. Friend believes in the importance of the local democratic process and that loc...
John Butterfill | 504 c515 (Link to this contribution) I support everything that my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Ellwood) says. Bourne...
Christopher Chope | 504 c503 (Link to this contribution) Well, in that case, I defer to my hon. Friend's expertise. I stand corrected; it was raised in Commi...
Christopher Chope | 504 c502 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is being unfair. I hope that the sponsors of the Bill will accept that that is an err...
Speaker | 504 c509 (Link to this contribution) Order. We are now spending time on the past and on procedure. May I suggest to the hon. Member for C...
Edward Leigh | 504 c509 (Link to this contribution) There is a serious matter. In an excellent speech—he gets the Eric Forth award for consistency and a...
Christopher Chope | 504 c496 (Link to this contribution) Basically, that demonstrates how complicated this drafting has become. We are talking about a set of...
Speaker | 504 c487 (Link to this contribution) With this, we will take amendments 3, 74, 7, 24, 8, 25, 9, 26, 10 to 12, 27, 13, 14, 28, 15 to 17, 2...

Subjects

Bournemouth
Licensing
EU law
Greater Manchester
Local government
Manchester City Council
Touting
Street trading
Bournemouth Borough Council

Legislation

Bournemouth Borough Council Bill (HL) 2006-07 to 2009-10
Manchester City Council Bill (HL) 2006-07 to 2009-10

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
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