Health Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage second day. Clauses 3 to 6 agreed to. Clauses 7 and 8 agreed to as amended. Grand Committee held in the Moses Room.
Health Bill [HL]
About these Parliamentary proceedings
Reference
708 c147-202GCSession
2008-09Legislative stage
Committee stageChamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand CommitteeRelated items
Health Bill (HL). Explanatory Notes HL Bill 18-EN also published. (Lords Minutes).
Thursday, 15 January 2009
Bills
House of Lords
Thursday, 15 January 2009
Bills
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Baroness Meacher | 708 c163GC (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I may add just one further bit of clarification on this crucial issue—and it is crucial, act...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c168GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for that intervention from my noble friend. I have no doubt that the noble Baroness, L...
Show all contributions (120)
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c168-9GC (Link to this contribution)
That may have been Aneurin Bevan’s vision when he said that the echo of a bedpan falling in Wales wo...
Baroness Murphy | 708 c170GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 35
35: Clause 6, page 4, line 26, leave out paragraph (d)
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c188GC (Link to this contribution)
Could the Secretary of State block a quality account before it is made available to the public under...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c191GC (Link to this contribution)
I have always had a fairly radical view about this. I do not think anyone could work in health or so...
Baroness Greengross | 708 c191-2GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister for that reply and for the commitment to this that he emphasised. My noble frie...
Lord Patel | 708 c195GC (Link to this contribution)
To seek more clarification, say that a maternity unit in a given area is found to have problems in t...
Earl Howe | 708 c156-8GC (Link to this contribution)
In moving this amendment I shall speak also to Amendment 36, and in doing so bring us to a subject t...
Baroness Barker | 708 c153GC (Link to this contribution)
We may disagree about when people should gather to review these documents, but I hope that we will h...
Baroness Barker | 708 c148-9GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, for her intervention and the Minister for his reply. It is ...
Baroness Tonge | 708 c162GC (Link to this contribution)
Will the noble Baroness allow me to intervene? I do not think that I said that. I said that I would ...
Baroness Tonge | 708 c161-2GC (Link to this contribution)
Briefly, I once again express my anxieties about quality accounts. The concept of quality in the NHS...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c167-8GC (Link to this contribution)
I am not a professional in this area, but a consumer of services. My noble friend referred to MRSA. ...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c168GC (Link to this contribution)
It that not also a matter of policy? Surely, the Government must have a view on whether that is righ...
Lord Walton of Detchant | 708 c164GC (Link to this contribution)
Clinical audit—the audit of clinical practice and outcomes of treatment—has been a fundamental part ...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 708 c166GC (Link to this contribution)
Before the noble Lord moves on, I want to ask a question for clarification so that I really understa...
Baroness Barker | 708 c169GC (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps the noble Lord could expand on why. He will be aware that the issue of private provider invo...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c169GC (Link to this contribution)
I have already said that there are other domains in quality and that value for money is an important...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c176-8GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Murphy and Lady Meacher, for tabling the amendment. I welcome the...
Baroness Meacher | 708 c178GC (Link to this contribution)
When the Minister says that he does not want to create a different reporting and accountability stru...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c178GC (Link to this contribution)
I am not sure where that is coming from. There is nothing in the Bill to suggest that the strategic ...
Baroness Young of Old Scone | 708 c178GC (Link to this contribution)
In view of how the debate is emerging, I seek further clarity. If the Minister is minded to negotiat...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c178GC (Link to this contribution)
If the wording can be changed to add more clarity, I am happy to look at that. The SHAs correct the ...
Earl Howe | 708 c179-81GC (Link to this contribution)
In moving Amendment 38, I shall speak also to Amendment 49.
These amendments share the same theme. ...
Baroness Murphy | 708 c179GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister for that very helpful reply in respect of the three aspects of the quality acco...
Earl Howe | 708 c179GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 38
38: Clause 6, page 4, line 35, at end insert—
““( ) The Care Quality Commission shall,...
Earl Howe | 708 c185-6GC (Link to this contribution)
I hope that the Minister will agree that the purpose served by amendments of this kind is to enable ...
Earl Howe | 708 c186-7GC (Link to this contribution)
In moving Amendment 39, I shall speak also to Amendments 41 and 42.
These amendments all have to do...
Baroness Greengross | 708 c190GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 39A
39A: After Clause 6, insert the following new Clause—
““Quality accounts domains
(1) ...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c189GC (Link to this contribution)
I shall try to answer, first, the question about the National Quality Board. Membership of the board...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c191GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving me the opportunity to address the Committee about the...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c195GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for that clarification. Essentially, the noble Lord is asking whether a commissioner s...
Earl Howe | 708 c193GC (Link to this contribution)
I shall speak to Amendment 43 in the group. It is a simple amendment about consultation and inclusiv...
Lord Patel | 708 c192GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 42A
42A: Clause 7, page 5, line 25, at end insert—
““( ) enabling the Secretary of State ...
Earl Howe | 708 c197GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the Minister. At the same time, he will recognise that there is an anxiety out ther...
Earl Howe | 708 c197GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 44
44: Clause 7, page 5, line 34, at end insert ““but does not include a private dwelling...
Lord Patel | 708 c197GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the Minister for his comments and clarification on this issue. It has helped a lot....
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c195-6GC (Link to this contribution)
That information, through the quality accounts, will be available to the commissioners. One statemen...
Lord Patel | 708 c196GC (Link to this contribution)
I am not sure whether the Minister has dealt with the noble Earl’s amendment.
Baroness Barker | 708 c198-9GC (Link to this contribution)
I imagine that veterans of the Committee will look at Amendment 48 and consider that it is one of th...
Lord Walton of Detchant | 708 c160-1GC (Link to this contribution)
My comments will be relatively brief, as the noble Earl and my noble friend Lord Patel have already ...
Baroness Pitkeathley | 708 c154-5GC (Link to this contribution)
I, too, support this amendment. I will not rehearse the arguments that I made on Monday about carers...
Baroness Young of Old Scone | 708 c154GC (Link to this contribution)
I declare an interest as chair of the Care Quality Commission, and welcome Amendment 27 in the name ...
Earl Howe | 708 c153-4GC (Link to this contribution)
My Amendment 29 is designed to say much the same as the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness,...
Baroness Barker | 708 c152-3GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank noble Lords very much for their contributions. Perhaps I may reply to the noble Baroness, La...
Baroness Barker | 708 c153GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 27
27: Clause 4, page 3, line 38, at end insert—
““( ) The following must be consulted ab...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 708 c150-1GC (Link to this contribution)
I take a rather different view of the handbook. At the Committee’s last sitting, I asked a question ...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 708 c150GC (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I may ask the Minister a specific question on Amendment 26. Will the data that are collected...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 708 c148GC (Link to this contribution)
There is one additional point to make on this very sensible proposal. Patients who are currently pat...
Baroness Barker | 708 c147-8GC (Link to this contribution)
I express my thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, for allowing us to up sticks slightly earl...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c163GC (Link to this contribution)
I think that everyone is queuing to reassure me that there will be no problems. My noble friend tell...
Baroness Young of Old Scone | 708 c163GC (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I can provide some clarification on the new regime on healthcare-acquired infection that wil...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c163GC (Link to this contribution)
I am aware of the code, but a hospital may choose to hide behind the existence of the code when it i...
Earl Howe | 708 c169-70GC (Link to this contribution)
I felt sure that we would be treated to an impressive and illuminating speech from the Minister in r...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c182-3GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendments 38 and 49, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, discuss the role of the Care Quality Comm...
Earl Howe | 708 c186GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 39
39: Clause 6, page 4, line 40, at end insert—
““( ) In this section to ““publish”” inc...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c184GC (Link to this contribution)
Why should we not make it a requirement? Surely, PCTs or other local health-related organisations wo...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c184GC (Link to this contribution)
I understand that, but the issue is the wording that goes to the Secretary of State in the account. ...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c183GC (Link to this contribution)
That is not in the legislation, but if a provider wished to share its quality account in a draft rep...
Earl Howe | 708 c190GC (Link to this contribution)
I welcome the Minister’s valuable assurances on this topic. I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Walt...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c189-90GC (Link to this contribution)
Clause 6(1) refers to each body listed publishing a document; that is, "““publish in respect of each...
Lord Walton of Detchant | 708 c189GC (Link to this contribution)
I am reassured to learn that the Minister has every intention of seeing that relevant information wi...
Baroness Barker | 708 c189GC (Link to this contribution)
There might be a difficulty if a hospital, a trust or whatever, which was operating under the auspic...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c188GC (Link to this contribution)
I need more clarification. The Secretary of State has no powers in withdrawing the quality accounts ...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c187-8GC (Link to this contribution)
The amendments laid by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, would req...
Baroness Masham of Ilton | 708 c191GC (Link to this contribution)
Sometimes patients are not able to complain themselves. They need people to do it for them.
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c192GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Earl. I am also delighted that ““FT”” did not turn up in the amendment. I...
Baroness Masham of Ilton | 708 c191GC (Link to this contribution)
What will happen if dignity and respect does not take place? How will it be made to take place in si...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c196GC (Link to this contribution)
Does that mean a provider may well end up criticising a commissioner in the report?
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c196GC (Link to this contribution)
I do not believe that that is what I said. The quality improvement also needs the support of the com...
Baroness Barker | 708 c195GC (Link to this contribution)
I do not wish to labour the point, but say there is a situation in which a practitioner in the provi...
Earl Howe | 708 c198GC (Link to this contribution)
I am very grateful to the Minister. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment 44 withdrawn.
...
Earl Howe | 708 c198GC (Link to this contribution)
Clause 8: Regulations under section 6
Amendment 45
45: Clause 8, page 5, line 36, after ““section”...
Lord Patel | 708 c158-60GC (Link to this contribution)
With the clarity with which the noble Earl speaks, I would always be glad if he were to speak on my ...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c155GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 27, tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Barker and Lady Tonge, proposes that the same lis...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 708 c154GC (Link to this contribution)
On the back of this, will the Minister say what the budgetary allowance is for the revision at three...
Baroness Barker | 708 c147GC (Link to this contribution)
Clause 3: Availability, review and revision of NHS Constitution
Amendment 24
24: Clause 3, page 3,...
Baroness Barker | 708 c149GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 26
26: Clause 4, page 3, line 37, leave out ““3”” and insert ““5””
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c148GC (Link to this contribution)
I am delighted that the noble Baroness is better, and I am sure that it will be relevant to the disc...
Baroness Murphy | 708 c163GC (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I can help the Committee by reminding the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, that there is n...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c162-3GC (Link to this contribution)
The noble Earl, Lord Howe, referred to hospital-acquired infections. I want to take that a step furt...
Baroness Murphy | 708 c162GC (Link to this contribution)
I accept that, and I will be pressing those questions on the next group of amendments. There is a re...
Baroness Murphy | 708 c162GC (Link to this contribution)
I shall speak to the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, which is grouped with ...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c165-6GC (Link to this contribution)
I was very gratified to hear this debate. It should reassure noble Lords to know that this is the ty...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c167GC (Link to this contribution)
It will definitely include all the comparative information that the Care Quality Commission will be ...
Baroness Masham of Ilton | 708 c164GC (Link to this contribution)
I support Amendments 34A and 37A. Only yesterday, I read in the Yorkshire Post that Leeds hospitals ...
Baroness Emerton | 708 c164GC (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I may speak very briefly to that point and also say one or two other things. Not only are cl...
Baroness Murphy | 708 c170-4GC (Link to this contribution)
I also speak to Amendment 47, and will continue the themes that we have been discussing in the previ...
Baroness Meacher | 708 c174-6GC (Link to this contribution)
I support Amendments 35 and 47. My noble friend Lady Murphy has outlined their purpose very eloquent...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c179GC (Link to this contribution)
All of what the noble Baroness has suggested will be in regulation. I have consistently said that th...
Baroness Murphy | 708 c178GC (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I may assist. I cannot remember in which clause it appears, but the SHA and the CQC are able...
Baroness Young of Old Scone | 708 c181-2GC (Link to this contribution)
The Addison rule was written for a purpose, and this is the moment it was written for. I know it is ...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c183GC (Link to this contribution)
My noble friend referred to using not the regulator but PCTs and local organisations. Does that mean...
Baroness Meacher | 708 c185GC (Link to this contribution)
Can the Minister clarify the Government’s perception of what have been the Healthcare Commission and...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c185GC (Link to this contribution)
I do. The regulator has played an extremely important role in quality improvements and will continue...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c184GC (Link to this contribution)
The role of the Secretary of State is to get that information and to make it available on the NHS Ch...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c184-5GC (Link to this contribution)
If a PCT identifies a mistake in the information in a quality account or if the CQC identifies an is...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c191GC (Link to this contribution)
I am sorry that I did not bring this up earlier. Patient experience is not purely information captur...
Earl Howe | 708 c192GC (Link to this contribution)
I hope the Committee will forgive me for descending into the realm of drafting detail, but Clause 7(...
Earl Howe | 708 c192GC (Link to this contribution)
Clause 7: Supplementary provision about the duty
Amendment 40
40: Clause 7, page 5, line 7, leave ...
Baroness Greengross | 708 c190-1GC (Link to this contribution)
I first apologise, because I did not notice that this was grouped earlier. I thank the Committee for...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c195GC (Link to this contribution)
I agree with that, but neither do I want to take the accountability off a provider by saying that it...
Baroness Barker | 708 c195GC (Link to this contribution)
I listened very carefully to what the Minister said. The fear that it set off in my mind is that whe...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c194GC (Link to this contribution)
The amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, would allow my right honourable friend the Secret...
Baroness Murphy | 708 c193-4GC (Link to this contribution)
I have some questions about the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Patel. The issue of joint thematic...
Lord Patel | 708 c192-3GC (Link to this contribution)
I shall speak briefly. The amendment is probing of an idea, which I hope will get some favour from t...
Earl Howe | 708 c192GC (Link to this contribution)
That is immensely gratifying.
Amendment 40 agreed.
Amendments 41 and 42 not moved.
Earl Howe | 708 c197GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 44 can be dealt with briefly. Under Clause 7(7), "““the provider must keep affixed, in a c...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c196-7GC (Link to this contribution)
Thank you. The amendment tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, places my right honourable friend the ...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c202GC (Link to this contribution)
This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until Monday at 3.30 pm.
Committee adj...
Baroness Barker | 708 c201-2GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, for explaining why his constituents were so well serv...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c200-1GC (Link to this contribution)
The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, has made a very sensible proposition, that the introduction of the ...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c199-200GC (Link to this contribution)
Normally I find myself supporting many of the amendments moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, b...
Baroness Barker | 708 c198GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 48
48: After Clause 8, insert the following new Clause—
““Report to Parliament on impact ...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c198GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Earl. This amendment seeks to ensure that the duty to display a notice de...
Earl Howe | 708 c156GC (Link to this contribution)
Clause 6: Duty of providers to publish information
Amendment 33
33: Clause 6, page 4, line 13, aft...
Baroness Barker | 708 c155-6GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank all noble Lords who contributed to this short debate. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Youn...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c151-2GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendments 26 and 28, tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Barker and Lady Tonge, propose that the H...
Baroness Barker | 708 c149-50GC (Link to this contribution)
It is unfortunate that this is the next amendment. Members of the Committee might think that I have ...
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