Health Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage first day. Clause 1 agreed to as amended. Clause 2 agreed to. Clause 3 under consideration. Grand Committee held in the Moses Room.
Health Bill [HL]
About these Parliamentary proceedings
Reference
708 c1-54GCSession
2008-09Legislative stage
Committee stageChamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand CommitteeRelated items
Health Bill (HL). Explanatory Notes HL Bill 18-EN also published. (Lords Minutes).
Thursday, 15 January 2009
Bills
House of Lords
Thursday, 15 January 2009
Bills
House of Lords
Show all related items (5)
Proceeding contributions
Baroness Barker | 708 c22-3GC (Link to this contribution)
That was a useful debate. I must admit, in answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, that I have e...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c13GC (Link to this contribution)
I will be very brief indeed. I have a single question for the opposition Front Bench. It arises from...
Show all contributions (86)
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c16GC (Link to this contribution)
In relation to the private pharmacists, I refer to any pharmacist providing NHS services. If the gen...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c9-12GC (Link to this contribution)
On Second Reading I said that I believed we should have had a Royal Commission on the health service...
Lord Walton of Detchant | 708 c6GC (Link to this contribution)
I have the greatest respect for the noble Earl who proposed the amendment and the noble Baroness who...
Earl Howe | 708 c52GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 23
23: Clause 3, page 3, line 19, at end insert ““and lay a copy before Parliament””
Earl Howe | 708 c27GC (Link to this contribution)
Clause 3: Availability, review and revision of NHS Constitution
Amendment 9
9: Clause 3, page 3, l...
Lord Walton of Detchant | 708 c28GC (Link to this contribution)
I hope that the Minister will readily agree to this helpful amendment, which strikes me as being a v...
Baroness Cumberlege | 708 c33-4GC (Link to this contribution)
I am in serious danger because I forgot to declare my interests—I may feature in the Guardian tomorr...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c25GC (Link to this contribution)
I shall be equally brief and support the contribution of the two previous speakers. Perhaps I may sl...
Earl Howe | 708 c23-4GC (Link to this contribution)
Besides the matters that we have just discussed, another aspect of these provisions needs to be look...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c22GC (Link to this contribution)
The constitution is quite a thick document. In it there are some serious paragraphs about patient an...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c22GC (Link to this contribution)
But it refers to the public and patients.
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c21-2GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendments 4, 5 and 6 tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Barker and Lady Tonge, propose that all b...
Baroness Barker | 708 c18-20GC (Link to this contribution)
I shall speak also to Amendments 5 and 6. What does this mean in practice? That is the key question ...
Earl Howe | 708 c18GC (Link to this contribution)
In that case, one could argue that it is good for Governments to come to Parliament if they want to ...
Lord Warner | 708 c17-8GC (Link to this contribution)
For the sake of clarity, I did not say that Governments should willy-nilly be able to change princip...
Earl Howe | 708 c17GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken. This has been a good debate. Of course, I acknowle...
Earl Howe | 708 c13GC (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I may answer that question now and get it out of the way. The broad answer is: yes, we are v...
Earl of Listowel | 708 c13GC (Link to this contribution)
Before the Minister replies, perhaps I may briefly make one or two points relating to subsection (2)...
Baroness Masham of Ilton | 708 c14GC (Link to this contribution)
The NHS is such a large organisation that some of the people working within it and the patients usin...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c14-6GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 3 would place the principles of the NHS Plan, published in 2000, in the Bill. It would als...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 708 c12GC (Link to this contribution)
I shall be brief, as I had not intended to speak at this point, but, having heard the debate, I felt...
Lord Warner | 708 c8-9GC (Link to this contribution)
I apologise to the Committee for not being at Second Reading but I was out of the country.
I apolo...
Earl Howe | 708 c2-4GC (Link to this contribution)
I hope that the amendment’s purpose will be immediately understood by the Committee. It is to sugges...
Baroness Barker | 708 c7-8GC (Link to this contribution)
When I saw the amendment, it sparked the following questions in my mind: what happened in 1948? What...
Lord Naseby | 708 c1GC (Link to this contribution)
I seek clarification on the subsequent date. I believe that the Bill states that there will be a rev...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c54GC (Link to this contribution)
This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until Thursday at 2 pm.
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c53-4GC (Link to this contribution)
The purpose of the amendment is to place a duty on the Secretary of State to lay a copy of any revis...
Baroness Barker | 708 c37GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 13
13: Clause 3, page 3, line 6, at end insert ““, local authorities””
Baroness Barker | 708 c37GC (Link to this contribution)
I shall speak also to Amendments 16, 21 and 31. This group of amendments is on a similar tack. It co...
Lord Walton of Detchant | 708 c43-4GC (Link to this contribution)
This is an exceptionally difficult and complex issue. It is clear that in relation to any review of ...
Baroness Wilkins | 708 c45GC (Link to this contribution)
I join the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, in strongly supporting the points made by the noble Earl, Lo...
Baroness Barker | 708 c50GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 22
22: Clause 3, page 3, line 17, at end insert—
““( ) The review will take into account ...
Baroness Barker | 708 c50-1GC (Link to this contribution)
As noble Lords will recognise by the drafting, this is a probing amendment. I apologise for the defi...
Earl Howe | 708 c28GC (Link to this contribution)
I shall speak also to Amendment 25. We read in Clauses 3 and 4 that the Secretary of State has to en...
Lord Naseby | 708 c30GC (Link to this contribution)
I support the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart. I suspect that most of us carry the European health insuran...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c35-6GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 11 would require all NHS bodies, including foundation trusts and special health authoritie...
Earl Howe | 708 c23GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 7
7: Clause 2, page 2, line 25, at end insert—
““( ) The Secretary of State shall publish...
Lord Warner | 708 c25GC (Link to this contribution)
I cannot resist rising on this issue. Having been on the receiving end of many lectures over the yea...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 708 c22GC (Link to this contribution)
May I ask a question of clarification? Having been brought up in the field of social care, where Bil...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c22GC (Link to this contribution)
To add a point of clarity, the handbook is primarily an explanatory guide for patients, not guidance...
Earl Howe | 708 c20GC (Link to this contribution)
I agree with all that the noble Baroness said as regards incorporating a duty to have regard to the ...
Baroness Barker | 708 c18GC (Link to this contribution)
Clause 2: Duty to have regard to NHS Constitution
Amendment 4
4: Clause 2, page 1, line 17, at end...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c2GC (Link to this contribution)
My understanding is that that is correct.
Amendment 1 agreed.
Amendment 2 agreed.
Clause 1, as am...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c1GC (Link to this contribution)
Clause 1: NHS Constitution
1: Clause 1, page 1, line 8, leave out from ““State”” to ““, or”” and in...
Lord Colwyn | 708 c54GC (Link to this contribution)
The Committee stands adjourned until Thursday 26 February at 2 pm.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 708 c53GC (Link to this contribution)
I support the amendment of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, having said during the debate on the principle...
Earl Howe | 708 c37-9GC (Link to this contribution)
I shall speak to the amendments in this group that are tabled in my name, Amendments 14, 15, 17, 19 ...
Baroness Cumberlege | 708 c42-3GC (Link to this contribution)
I have put my name to one of these amendments concerning carers. Critical to the success of the NHS ...
Baroness Masham of Ilton | 708 c45GC (Link to this contribution)
I very much support the noble Earl, Lord Howe, on specialised services. I declare an interest as som...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c45-6GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 13 proposes that the Secretary of State consult local authorities on any revision of the c...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c46GC (Link to this contribution)
My noble friend says that it is not specific in the sense of identifying individual bodies. However,...
Baroness Barker | 708 c49-50GC (Link to this contribution)
On behalf of all noble Lords, I thank the Minister for the very detailed and considered response tha...
Baroness Barker | 708 c52GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister very much for that reply. It is worth bringing to mind that a year ago noble Lo...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c26-7GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 7 would place a duty on the Secretary of State to publish guidance on how bodies and perso...
Earl Howe | 708 c27GC (Link to this contribution)
The amendment has nothing to do with returns to Richmond House or additional bureaucracy. I was quit...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c30GC (Link to this contribution)
I appreciate that the handbook will be displayed in various places, including public libraries, doct...
Lord Walton of Detchant | 708 c32-3GC (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I may raise a note of caution in relation to this amendment, based upon historical experienc...
Earl Howe | 708 c30-1GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate. I still have a feeling that the ...
Baroness Barker | 708 c31GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 11
11: Clause 3, page 3, line 5, at end insert—
““( ) The Secretary of State must ensure ...
Baroness Tonge | 708 c25GC (Link to this contribution)
The spirit has moved me to respond after that speech by the noble Lord, Lord Warner. He has enunciat...
Baroness Cumberlege | 708 c20-1GC (Link to this contribution)
I pay tribute to those who put this handbook together. In the NHS, we bore for Britain when it comes...
Baroness Cumberlege | 708 c17GC (Link to this contribution)
I understand the arguments that have been put about flexibility and ensuring that we have enough roo...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c16GC (Link to this contribution)
Before the noble Earl does that, I wonder whether I could clarify a couple of points. When I referre...
Baroness Cumberlege | 708 c4-6GC (Link to this contribution)
Those noble Lords who took part in the Queen’s Speech on the health debate will remember that I am n...
Earl Howe | 708 c2GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 3
3: After Clause 1, insert the following new Clause—
““Core principles
(1) The NHS Const...
Lord Rea | 708 c8GC (Link to this contribution)
Even before the noble Earl, Lord Howe, moved his amendment in his usual eloquent and persuasive mann...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 708 c6-7GC (Link to this contribution)
I have great sympathy with the principle of the amendment, because it states that the core principle...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c1GC (Link to this contribution)
I shall speak also to Amendment 2. Before I turn to those amendments—I do not intend to delay the Co...
Earl Howe | 708 c52-3GC (Link to this contribution)
This amendment is designed to highlight an anomalous fact as regards this part of the Bill, a fact t...
Earl Howe | 708 c54GC (Link to this contribution)
Those are important reassurances, which I take on board fully. I was reassured in particular by the ...
Baroness Pitkeathley | 708 c39-40GC (Link to this contribution)
Your Lordships will not be surprised that I rise to speak in support of the amendments about carers—...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c40-1GC (Link to this contribution)
I am, as ever, somewhat confused and find it difficult to understand why a Labour Government have tr...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 708 c44-5GC (Link to this contribution)
My friend the noble Lord, Lord Walton, is as usual highly eloquent but, as it is, we already have a ...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c46-9GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for that intervention. I am referring to revision of the constitution, which could hap...
Baroness Masham of Ilton | 708 c49GC (Link to this contribution)
How important does the Minister feel the specialised services are? He did not mention them.
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c49GC (Link to this contribution)
The noble Baroness will be fully aware—and I should probably declare an interest here—that I work in...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c51-2GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 22 would place a duty on the Secretary of State to take into account any impact on bringin...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c29-30GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendments 9 and 25 propose that the NHS Constitution and the handbook to the NHS Constitution be ““...
Baroness Tonge | 708 c29GC (Link to this contribution)
I speak to Amendment 10, which follows on from the amendment moved by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and...
Baroness Barker | 708 c31-2GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 11 brings to the attention of the Committee a substantial omission within the constitution...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c30GC (Link to this contribution)
Anything that we can do to enhance communication in this field will be very important. I am not sure...
Baroness Barker | 708 c36-7GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. I start by assuring the noble Lord, Lord...
Baroness Young of Old Scone | 708 c34-5GC (Link to this contribution)
Like the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, I declare an interest as chair of the Care Quality Commiss...
Lord Colwyn | 708 c1GC (Link to this contribution)
Good afternoon. I start with the usual announcement that, if there is a Division in the Chamber whil...
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