Serious Crime Bill (HL). Ways and means motion agreed to on question. Report stage. New clause 1 debated and agreed to on division (277 to 204). New clause 2 agreed to. New clauses 3 and 9 debated and agreed to on question. New clause 5 debated and negatived on division (198 to 273). Amendment 63 negatived on division (201 to 274). Third reading debate. Agreed to on question. Bill passed with amendments.
Serious Crime Bill [Lords]
Debate on bills on Monday, 22 October 2007,
in the House of Commons,
led by Tony McNulty.
The answering
member was James Brokenshire.
About these Parliamentary proceedings
Reference
465 c40-125Session
2006-07Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamberRelated items
Serious Crime Bill (HL). As amended in Public Bill Committee.
Tuesday, 10 July 2007
Bills
House of Commons
Tuesday, 10 July 2007
Bills
House of Commons
Legislative scrutiny: fifth progress report. Human Rights Joint Select Committee twelfth report with proceedings and appendices.
Monday, 23 April 2007
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
House of Commons
Monday, 23 April 2007
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Lord Coaker | 465 c125 (Link to this contribution)
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. With the leave of the House, I shall make a few remarks. I reciprocat...
Lord Deben | 465 c101-2 (Link to this contribution)
I shall apply myself to the specific issue of certainty and clarity. When the Minister said that the...
Show all contributions (99)
Jeremy Browne | 465 c102 (Link to this contribution)
Does that not show that divisions in politics nowadays are often not between left and right but betw...
Lord Deben | 465 c102-3 (Link to this contribution)
I was trying to use good, old-fashioned language so as not to upset the Under-Secretary too much, bu...
Lord Coaker | 465 c103-4 (Link to this contribution)
In the time available, I will go through the various amendments. However, I do not propose to go thr...
Lord Coaker | 465 c99 (Link to this contribution)
I am glad that the hon. Gentleman added that rider. He must have suddenly realised, when he said tha...
James Brokenshire | 465 c104 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister has said that he expects that that standard will apply. Can he state categorically that...
Lord Coaker | 465 c104-6 (Link to this contribution)
To put beyond reasonable doubt what I am saying, the civil court, in making its judgment about such ...
James Brokenshire | 465 c106 (Link to this contribution)
In that example of an employee, the Minister has said that it would be up to the employee to show th...
Lord Coaker | 465 c106-7 (Link to this contribution)
I do not accept that, for the reasons that the hon. Gentleman knows. We have already debated that ma...
Jeremy Browne | 465 c122-4 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for a final opportunity to speak on the Bill. As is customary, I shall begin by thanki...
James Brokenshire | 465 c119-22 (Link to this contribution)
I thank my hon. Friends who served on the Committee and applied the scrutiny and the approach to whi...
Tony McNulty | 465 c117-8 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
This Bill has been debated at some length,...
Philip Hollobone | 465 c118 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister mentioned incitement. The Bill gets rid of the common law offence of incitement and rep...
Jeremy Browne | 465 c107 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the Minister for his customary courtesy in dealing with all aspects of the Bill. Ho...
Speaker | 465 c124 (Link to this contribution)
Precisely. It is not usual to make a complete reply to a debate on Third Reading, but if the Ministe...
Lord Coaker | 465 c124 (Link to this contribution)
With the leave of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
Tony McNulty | 465 c88-9 (Link to this contribution)
I have no doubt that many of matters raised by the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) are leg...
Dominic Grieve | 465 c85-8 (Link to this contribution)
I present to the House new clause 5, which stands in my name and the names of my hon. Friends; amend...
Speaker | 465 c85 (Link to this contribution)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government amendments Nos. 42 to 46.
Amen...
Dominic Grieve | 465 c85 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Tony McNulty | 465 c89 (Link to this contribution)
I was not challenging the notion that those debates were bad tempered—I have read them, and that is ...
Dominic Grieve | 465 c89 (Link to this contribution)
I recommend that the Minister read the debate on the 2003 order. It was an extremely bad- tempered e...
Lord Coaker | 465 c84-5 (Link to this contribution)
I thank my right hon. Friend for that intervention. We will, of course, ensure—I give him this commi...
Keith Vaz | 465 c84 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr. Walker) has told us what happened when he was stopped. He is cle...
Lord Coaker | 465 c82-4 (Link to this contribution)
I thank all Opposition Members and my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz) f...
Charles Walker | 465 c81-2 (Link to this contribution)
First, the officer asked whether I had been drinking, to which I replied that I had not had a drink ...
Jeremy Browne | 465 c96-7 (Link to this contribution)
Most hon. Members, particularly those who sat through our extended periods in Committee, will accept...
Speaker | 465 c95-6 (Link to this contribution)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 75, in line 6, after 'satis...
Lord Deben | 465 c98 (Link to this contribution)
Does my hon. Friend agree that when something like this is not made clear, it means either that the ...
James Brokenshire | 465 c97-8 (Link to this contribution)
The Government have sought to clarify their position on the standard of proof to be applied in consi...
James Brokenshire | 465 c98-9 (Link to this contribution)
My right hon. Friend makes an extremely powerful and effective point. It is extremely strange that t...
Dominic Grieve | 465 c89 (Link to this contribution)
I disagree with the Minister. If the new clause were accepted, it would immediately create an incomp...
Dominic Grieve | 465 c90-1 (Link to this contribution)
Let me start by saying some pleasant things to the Minister. I thank him for the amendments that the...
Tony McNulty | 465 c89-90 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman is far more erudite and expert in those legal matters than I am. I have watched w...
Jeremy Browne | 465 c95 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move amendment No. 63, in page 1, line 6, after 'satisfied', insert 'beyond reasonable doub...
Speaker | 465 c91 (Link to this contribution)
Order. May I ask the Serjeant to investigate the delay in the No Lobby?
Lord Coaker | 465 c71-2 (Link to this contribution)
That would be a matter for the police to determine, though one would expect it be in a reasonably co...
Charles Walker | 465 c71 (Link to this contribution)
I understand that these powers would last for a certain number of hours after being invoked, but how...
Lord Coaker | 465 c70-1 (Link to this contribution)
I am receiving different advice, in the sense that, in the new scenario involving a reaction to an e...
James Brokenshire | 465 c70 (Link to this contribution)
I want to seek clarification from the Minister on the question of oral authorisation that he has ide...
Lord Coaker | 465 c69 (Link to this contribution)
That is certainly one change. Both the existing scenarios will require written authorisation and wil...
Lord Coaker | 465 c69 (Link to this contribution)
That is not the view of the police, who are pleased that we are filling this gap and who support the...
James Brokenshire | 465 c69 (Link to this contribution)
I should like to refer the Minister to section 60(1)(b), which gives the authorisation that he has d...
Lord Coaker | 465 c69 (Link to this contribution)
I shall give way to the hon. Member for Hornchurch first.
Charles Walker | 465 c81 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to be called to speak in this important debate. I did not serve on the Committee, but ...
Geoffrey Cox | 465 c79-81 (Link to this contribution)
The power to stop and search randomly is a power that should be exercised with the greatest of care....
Keith Vaz | 465 c81 (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for recounting that story. What was the explanation given b...
Jeremy Browne | 465 c77-8 (Link to this contribution)
I echo the sentiments of every previous speaker about the shock and public concern that rightly and ...
Keith Vaz | 465 c75-7 (Link to this contribution)
Let me begin by saying that this is no ““magpie Minister”” but an eagle, willing to swoop down and d...
Jeremy Browne | 465 c78-9 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for the clarification. So were the Conservatives' policy to be implemented, no form wo...
James Brokenshire | 465 c78 (Link to this contribution)
I am delighted to have the opportunity to intervene. I would point out to the hon. Gentleman that th...
James Brokenshire | 465 c72-4 (Link to this contribution)
There can be little doubt about the appalling consequences of violent crime and the need for appropr...
James Brokenshire | 465 c74-5 (Link to this contribution)
That is not clear from the wording of section 60(9), but, as I have said, I am happy to take on boar...
Lord Coaker | 465 c74 (Link to this contribution)
The oral authorisation in section 60 applies only to the extension of an authorisation, not to the o...
Lord Coaker | 465 c60-1 (Link to this contribution)
There are two ways in which we hope to take the matter forward. It is important to recognise that th...
Chris Ruane | 465 c60 (Link to this contribution)
In my constituency, there is a premises on West parade, on the front of Rhyl promenade, which was th...
Speaker | 465 c52 (Link to this contribution)
I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Lobby.
Lord Coaker | 465 c58 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
James Brokenshire | 465 c52 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister highlighted the point about the assessment of the court, but that is really a question ...
Lord Coaker | 465 c52 (Link to this contribution)
I apologise if I chided the hon. Gentleman too harshly; I did not mean to. He will know that we are ...
Stewart Hosie | 465 c59 (Link to this contribution)
Very little in the Bill relates directly to Scotland, but some of the amendments do. Although this i...
Lord Coaker | 465 c59-60 (Link to this contribution)
That was an excellent question by the hon. Gentleman, but I shall require to give it some thought be...
Speaker | 465 c58 (Link to this contribution)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government amendments Nos. 14, 18, 19, 23 ...
Lord Coaker | 465 c58-9 (Link to this contribution)
I shall begin with new clause 3. Under the civil recovery provisions of the Proceeds of Crime Act 20...
James Brokenshire | 465 c61-3 (Link to this contribution)
The new clause effectively provides additional provisions relating to freezing orders, which come un...
Lord Coaker | 465 c63-4 (Link to this contribution)
Let me revert to the question of the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Stewart Hosie) about Scotland. He...
Lord Coaker | 465 c65 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Speaker | 465 c65-7 (Link to this contribution)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
New clause 8—Stop and Search Power
‘(1) ...
Lord Coaker | 465 c67-8 (Link to this contribution)
We come to an important group, as all hon. Members would agree. New clause 9 concerns police powers ...
James Brokenshire | 465 c68 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister has referred to the new scenario, which he described as being one where a serious viole...
Lord Coaker | 465 c68 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman knows that what we are extending is the right to stop and search either people or...
Geoffrey Cox | 465 c68 (Link to this contribution)
Will the Minister tell us in what kind of circumstances this power would be useful?
Lord Coaker | 465 c68-9 (Link to this contribution)
As the law stands at the moment, if there had been a shooting or a violent altercation involving kni...
James Brokenshire | 465 c45 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister talks about the assessment of the costs of the order and of the monitoring. How is it l...
Lord Coaker | 465 c44 (Link to this contribution)
We went through that debate at great length in Committee. The applicant authority would have had to ...
James Brokenshire | 465 c44 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister has talked about the application of the orders and the way in which they would need to ...
Lord Coaker | 465 c43-4 (Link to this contribution)
In his report, ““Regulatory Justice: Making Sanctions Effective””, Professor McCrory advocated that"...
Lord Coaker | 465 c43 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Speaker | 465 c43 (Link to this contribution)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Government new clause 2—Costs in relation...
Lord Coaker | 465 c40-1 (Link to this contribution)
It is, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am trying to outline why the costs that are implicit in the Bill are re...
James Brokenshire | 465 c41 (Link to this contribution)
This proposal, relating to the establishment of new monitors under serious crime prevention orders c...
Lord Coaker | 465 c40 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move, "That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Serious Crime Bill [Lords], it ...
Speaker | 465 c40 (Link to this contribution)
Order. I am reluctant to interrupt the Minister, but we are actually on the ways and means resolutio...
James Brokenshire | 465 c50 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister says that he believes that new clause 1 will make a significant difference. He has also...
Lord Coaker | 465 c50 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Hornchurch (James Brokenshire) for recognising the complexity o...
James Brokenshire | 465 c47-8 (Link to this contribution)
Well, there is an issue in the way in which civil orders can be used for crime prevention. The hon. ...
Lord Coaker | 465 c48 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman made a reasonable point about the application of new clause 1(6) to the new claus...
James Brokenshire | 465 c48-9 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the Minister if that is what is intended, but new clause 1(6) states that it does n...
Jeremy Browne | 465 c49-50 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak briefly on new clause 1. I echo the concerns that have ju...
Lord Coaker | 465 c45 (Link to this contribution)
As the hon. Gentleman will know, the practical arrangements for deciding how costs are to be arrived...
James Brokenshire | 465 c45-7 (Link to this contribution)
The first thing to note about new clause 1 and the accompanying new clause 2 is that they are obviou...
Jeremy Browne | 465 c47 (Link to this contribution)
Does the hon. Gentleman see a distinction, as I do, between using these powers to restrict the freed...
Lord Coaker | 465 c124 (Link to this contribution)
It has come as some surprise not only to me but to all hon. Members—
Geoffrey Cox | 465 c69 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch (James Brokenshire) has, to some extent, anticipated the po...
Lord Coaker | 465 c51 (Link to this contribution)
I do not know the answer to that, but the serious crime prevention order as laid out in the Bill sho...
James Brokenshire | 465 c99-101 (Link to this contribution)
By using the word ““appropriate””, the Minister is suggesting that the High Court would operate in a...
Tony McNulty | 465 c118-9 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman raises a fair point. If the activities to which he referred were undertaken in pu...
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