UK Parliament / Open data

Building Societies (Funding) and Mutual Societies (Transfers) Bill

Debate on bills on Friday, 19 October 2007, in the House of Commons.
Building Societies (Funding) and Mutual Societies (Transfers) Bill. Lords amendments considered and agreed to.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

464 c1069-102 

Session

2006-07

Department

Treasury

Legislative stage

Lords amendments

Procedure

Private members' bills proceedings

Chamber / Committee

House of Commons chamber

Related items

Building Societies (Funding) and Mutual Societies (Transfers) Bill. Lords amendments. Explanatory Notes Bill 159-EN also published. (vote).
Monday, 15 October 2007
Bills
House of Commons

Proceeding contributions

Speaker | 464 c1069 (Link to this contribution) With this we may discuss Lords amendments Nos. 2 to 6.
John Butterfill | 464 c1069 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment.

Show all contributions (134)
Christopher Chope | 464 c1069-70 (Link to this contribution) Paragraph 5 of the explanatory notes, contained in the helpful commentary on the Lords amendments th...
John Butterfill | 464 c1069 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that there is any likelihood of the ruling being contested in either group of courts....
Christopher Chope | 464 c1070 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way again. Having answered my question rather succinctly,...
John Butterfill | 464 c1070 (Link to this contribution) Certainly the provisions would enable that to be the case, but the process would still be subject to...
Philip Davies | 464 c1069 (Link to this contribution) In the light of what my hon. Friend has just said, can he confirm whether the new ruling will be sub...
John Butterfill | 464 c1070 (Link to this contribution) All the proposals were discussed with the industry quite extensively and were of course dealt with e...
John Butterfill | 464 c1070 (Link to this contribution) We do not think that that can arise, but we are establishing that beyond peradventure. However, no d...
Lembit Opik | 464 c1070 (Link to this contribution) Presumably the progenitors of the amendments, which I understand from the hon. Gentleman to be the i...
John Butterfill | 464 c1070 (Link to this contribution) Yes, because that will not actually occur. If my hon. Friend is concerned about that, he should know...
Christopher Chope | 464 c1070 (Link to this contribution) But surely if the hybridity issue will not arise, there is no need for Lords amendment No. 1. If the...
Kitty Ussher | 464 c1101 (Link to this contribution) My understanding is that this measure will make that possible, but I am not in a position to say whe...
Kitty Ussher | 464 c1101 (Link to this contribution) I know that the islands' authorities were consulted and were content with the proposed amendment. I ...
Simon Burns | 464 c1101 (Link to this contribution) Given that the Minister has told us that discussions have taken place with the Channel Islands and, ...
Kitty Ussher | 464 c1101 (Link to this contribution) I will give the hon. Gentleman one last go.
Kitty Ussher | 464 c1102 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether that would be possible, but I can see no difficulties arising if it were to ha...
Christopher Chope | 464 c1101 (Link to this contribution) Bearing in mind the uncertainty about the timetable, will the Minister tell us whether it will be po...
Kitty Ussher | 464 c1102 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is being extremely persistent. I will take one further intervention.
Simon Burns | 464 c1102 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister give way on that point?
Simon Burns | 464 c1102 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful. I was most interested to hear the Minister's response to my hon. Friend the Member fo...
John Butterfill | 464 c1099 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment. The Channel Islands and...
John Butterfill | 464 c1099 (Link to this contribution) The last discussions that I had in the Treasury suggested the consultation would take some months, b...
John Butterfill | 464 c1100 (Link to this contribution) I did not approach them myself—I understand that they were approached by the Treasury and asked to b...
Christopher Chope | 464 c1100 (Link to this contribution) Can my hon. Friend tell us when he first approached the Channel Islands and Isle of Man authorities ...
John Butterfill | 464 c1099 (Link to this contribution) I doubt it, is the answer. We have heard all sorts of strange suggestions as to who might merge with...
Lembit Opik | 464 c1099 (Link to this contribution) I feel duty bound to ask whether the amendment, if passed, would make it more difficult for a financ...
Simon Burns | 464 c1101 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister anticipate that Orders in Council will be issued at some point?
Kitty Ussher | 464 c1100-1 (Link to this contribution) I shall be happy to provide that clarification. My understanding is that the drafters of the Bill ha...
Philip Davies | 464 c1100 (Link to this contribution) I, too, would like to raise a query that I hope the Minister can address. Lords amendment No. 7 says...
Christopher Chope | 464 c1100 (Link to this contribution) Few people would wish to quibble with Lords amendment No. 7. However, I hope that the Minister will ...
Kitty Ussher | 464 c1102 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for not being a world expert on the legal situation relating to the Channel Islands and ...
Mark Hoban | 464 c1076 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an important point, which is why we need more clarity about what is currently i...
Mark Hoban | 464 c1075-6 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend, who has great experience in these matters, makes a valid point. As a gentleman, I wo...
Christopher Chope | 464 c1075 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that this is extremely complicated territory and that it would be easier f...
Mark Hoban | 464 c1076 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an important point. I am not a parliamentary draftsman, so I bow to the experie...
John Butterfill | 464 c1076 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can enlighten my hon. Friend. I refer him to clause 3(9) of the original Bill, which defin...
Mark Hoban | 464 c1073-5 (Link to this contribution) That distinction can clearly be drawn, but I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, W...
Christopher Chope | 464 c1073 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend share my view that there is a distinction to be drawn between the question wheth...
Mark Hoban | 464 c1075 (Link to this contribution) Defenders of the mutual societies would say that they are not motivated by a love of profit, but by ...
Mark Hoban | 464 c1073 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that clarification. The uncertainty about the precise legal form...
John Butterfill | 464 c1072-3 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) has not read the explanatory notes fu...
Mark Hoban | 464 c1072 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for your guidance, Madam Deputy Speaker. My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch m...
Speaker | 464 c1072 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Member for Fareham (Mr. Hoban) must reply to the first intervention. Then he might w...
Christopher Chope | 464 c1072 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is on to a good point here. It is significant that the explanatory notes on the Lords...
Mark Hoban | 464 c1071-2 (Link to this contribution) I want to make a few brief remarks about the group. First, however, I congratulate my hon. Friend th...
John Butterfill | 464 c1071 (Link to this contribution) With his usual perceptive nature my hon. Friend will have noted that that issue arises in the next g...
Christopher Chope | 464 c1071 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has not dealt with the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. Why does he think it impo...
John Butterfill | 464 c1085 (Link to this contribution) I bring my hon. Friend back to the point that we would be dealing with two groups of members: the me...
Christopher Chope | 464 c1085 (Link to this contribution) We are talking about hypotheses. If my hon. Friend does not think that any group would have a locus ...
John Butterfill | 464 c1085 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend knows very well that in such circumstances mischief-makers could claim to have locus ...
Lembit Opik | 464 c1084 (Link to this contribution) What mechanism can the hon. Gentleman foresee that would enable the people determining whether to ma...
Christopher Chope | 464 c1084 (Link to this contribution) I do not say that the problems were all due to the structure of the organisation—
Speaker | 464 c1084 (Link to this contribution) I should remind hon. Members that we are not debating the issue of Northern Rock. Enough reference h...
Christopher Chope | 464 c1084-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker. You enable me to answer the hon. Gentleman's other point on how...
Philip Davies | 464 c1086 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West (Sir John Butterfill)...
Christopher Chope | 464 c1086 (Link to this contribution) Exactly—my hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is why, when looking at this issue, their Lordships...
Speaker | 464 c1086 (Link to this contribution) Order. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman can continue, even without the benefit of the letter.
Christopher Chope | 464 c1083 (Link to this contribution) Is that correct? I ask with great respect, as my hon. Friend is a much greater expert in this matter...
Lembit Opik | 464 c1083 (Link to this contribution) Leaving aside the fact that Northern Rock's recent difficulties obviously have nothing to do with it...
John Butterfill | 464 c1083 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend does not realise that the scenario he describes could happen today, without this Bill...
Mark Hoban | 464 c1081 (Link to this contribution) I should hate the hon. Gentleman to leave with an incorrect interpretation of my remarks. I merely d...
Lembit Opik | 464 c1081-2 (Link to this contribution) I fully understand the hon. Gentleman's desire to clarify on the record the position of those on the...
Lembit Opik | 464 c1080-1 (Link to this contribution) That is probably a worthwhile request to the Minister. I too hope that she can clarify her understan...
Christopher Chope | 464 c1084 (Link to this contribution) Obviously, the operations of such an institution within the United Kingdom, in so far as they dealt ...
Lembit Opik | 464 c1083 (Link to this contribution) Well, okay—we will have that discussion in the pub later. Leaving that aside, surely the hon. Member...
Philip Davies | 464 c1078 (Link to this contribution) I feel that I should leap to my hon. Friend's defence in the face of the onslaught from my hon. Frie...
Mark Hoban | 464 c1078 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to go too far down this route. My hon. Friend makes an important point. UK shareholder...
Christopher Chope | 464 c1078-9 (Link to this contribution) I think that my hon. Friend is on to a good point. There is a distinction between members of a mutua...
Lembit Opik | 464 c1079-80 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the hon. Member for Bournemouth, West (Sir John Butterfill) on his prodigious product...
John Butterfill | 464 c1080 (Link to this contribution) I am sure the hon. Gentleman is aware that before any merger of this type could take place, the memb...
Mark Hoban | 464 c1080 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right to point out that it would be up to the members of both organisations to...
Christopher Chope | 464 c1076 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend accept that a UK building society, financial mutual or mutual society would also...
Lembit Opik | 464 c1077 (Link to this contribution) Guidance from the Minister on this point is probably helpful, but I suspect that it is a pretty open...
Mark Hoban | 464 c1076-7 (Link to this contribution) We are getting into some tricky territory relating to drafting and how the clauses interact. I would...
Lembit Opik | 464 c1077 (Link to this contribution) My interpretation would be that the Treasury could stipulate what happens within the jurisdiction of...
Mark Hoban | 464 c1077-8 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman might be right, and the Minister might indicate that in her remarks. I would add,...
John Butterfill | 464 c1078 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is being untypically—or atypically—naive. The situation is no different from that for...
Lembit Opik | 464 c1077 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is nodding, so I suspect that she will confirm that the issue raised by the hon. Member...
Mark Hoban | 464 c1078 (Link to this contribution) Part of this process is to tease out what will happen when the amendments come into force. When mutu...
Mark Hoban | 464 c1097 (Link to this contribution) To clarify, a UK non-financial mutual, which by definition is an EEA mutual, could merge with a UK f...
Kitty Ussher | 464 c1098 (Link to this contribution) That is my understanding. The changes will allow mutuals in other EEA states to take over UK mutuals...
Mark Hoban | 464 c1098 (Link to this contribution) Clause 3(9) specifies three types of UK financial mutual that could merge with other UK financial mu...
Kitty Ussher | 464 c1098 (Link to this contribution) My understanding is that the purpose of the proposal is simply to create a level playing field. A fo...
Kitty Ussher | 464 c1096 (Link to this contribution) That is not my understanding. The amendments address the specific point that my predecessor made in ...
Christopher Chope | 464 c1097 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Lady for accepting this final intervention. She referred to the precaution...
Kitty Ussher | 464 c1097 (Link to this contribution) I am aware that the hon. Gentleman has had a substantial opportunity to contribute. I shall take one...
Mark Hoban | 464 c1097 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for that clarification. She listed the three types of EEA mutual. With...
Kitty Ussher | 464 c1097 (Link to this contribution) I do not believe that I am excluding rights by addressing the point of hybridity at this point durin...
Kitty Ussher | 464 c1097 (Link to this contribution) I presume the hon. Gentleman is going back to the wine example. It is not for me to specify which se...
Kitty Ussher | 464 c1099 (Link to this contribution) I said that I would not give way again, so I shall stick to that. I apologise. I am delighted to co...
Christopher Chope | 464 c1099 (Link to this contribution) Will the Economic Secretary give way?
Kitty Ussher | 464 c1098-9 (Link to this contribution) I agree. It is not for the Government to start delving deep into the decisions that essentially priv...
Lembit Opik | 464 c1098 (Link to this contribution) Does the Economic Secretary feel, like me, that we are considering a moot point? If a UK financial m...
Christopher Chope | 464 c1099 (Link to this contribution) I was disappointed that, given the time available, the Economic Secretary was not prepared to take m...
John Butterfill | 464 c1099 (Link to this contribution) I am happy with the Economic Secretary's reply. She has explained clearly and comprehensively the po...
Philip Davies | 464 c1091-2 (Link to this contribution) I, too, wish to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West (Sir John Butterfill) o...
John Butterfill | 464 c1092 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is aware that the Bill provides that all such orders will be subject to the affirmati...
Christopher Chope | 464 c1090-1 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the Minister will be able to respond to the concerns expressed. At the moment, the defin...
Lembit Opik | 464 c1090 (Link to this contribution) Just for the avoidance of doubt, I can hardly be a Eurosceptic given that my parents are Estonian. I...
Christopher Chope | 464 c1089-90 (Link to this contribution) The Joint Select Committee on Delegated Legislation that examined the issue of hybrid instruments sa...
Speaker | 464 c1090 (Link to this contribution) Order. I have allowed a little latitude, but that is far enough.
Speaker | 464 c1087 (Link to this contribution) Order. I remind the hon. Gentleman that this is a narrow debate on a particular group of amendments....
Speaker | 464 c1089 (Link to this contribution) Order. Interesting as that might be, I do not think that it is in any way relevant to the amendments...
Christopher Chope | 464 c1088-9 (Link to this contribution) It is indeed narrow, Madam Deputy Speaker, but may I submit that it is also very important, because ...
Philip Davies | 464 c1096 (Link to this contribution) I would like to pick up on something that the Minister said earlier. She said that amendments Nos. 2...
Christopher Chope | 464 c1096 (Link to this contribution) This is the first time I have had the privilege of hearing the Minister speak in her new role. She i...
Kitty Ussher | 464 c1094-6 (Link to this contribution) In the few moments that I intend to use, given the 32 Bills listed for debate during the next couple...
Kitty Ussher | 464 c1094 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely positively encouraged by Opposition Members' forensic scrutiny of the Bill during tod...
Philip Davies | 464 c1094 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. He may well be right that that would be a good thing and make...
Lembit Opik | 464 c1093 (Link to this contribution) There is a potential slight contradiction between the hon. Gentleman's comments and those of some hi...
Philip Davies | 464 c1093 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has been in Parliament much longer than I have and knows all the tricks of the trade ...
Christopher Chope | 464 c1092 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that to say that something is going to be subject to an affirmative order ...
Philip Davies | 464 c1092 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for once again reassuring me about the merits of his Bill, and that ...
Philip Davies | 464 c1076 (Link to this contribution) I, too, bow to the greater experience of my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West (Sir John B...
Mark Hoban | 464 c1079 (Link to this contribution) That is an important point. We may need to distinguish between a member of a mutual as a customer of...
Mark Hoban | 464 c1077 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman might be right, but we need some clarity. From reading the explanatory notes, I a...
Lembit Opik | 464 c1075 (Link to this contribution) I am following and I am intrigued by the hon. Gentleman's argument, but what evil is he seeking to p...
Lembit Opik | 464 c1080 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has summarised the single most important defence for any such change. It is true ...
Christopher Chope | 464 c1086-7 (Link to this contribution) Exactly, Madam Deputy Speaker. Effectively, what the Minister who wrote that letter said was not ver...
Christopher Chope | 464 c1085-6 (Link to this contribution) If one looks at the history of the hybrid instrument procedure, one sees that it has always been the...
John Butterfill | 464 c1069 (Link to this contribution) The amendments arise out of difficulties that we experienced in tabling appropriate clauses when the...
Christopher Chope | 464 c1082-3 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West (Sir John Butterfill) on the progress...
Christopher Chope | 464 c1090 (Link to this contribution) I hear the development of the hon. Gentleman's argument, but as I am a member of the parliamentary d...
Kitty Ussher | 464 c1096 (Link to this contribution) No, I do not agree with that. I do not feel that it is a blank cheque. I genuinely feel that technic...

Subjects

Channel Islands
Fees and charges
Insurance companies
Isle of Man
Financial Services Authority
Mergers
Mutual societies
Subsidiary companies
European economic area

Legislation

Building Societies (Funding) and Mutual Societies (Transfers) Bill 2006-07
Financial Mutuals Arrangements Bill 2006-07

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
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