Building Societies (Funding) and Mutual Societies (Transfers) Bill

I, too, wish to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West (Sir John Butterfill) on getting yet another private Member's Bill to this stage. He is on the threshold of getting another one enacted, and that is a considerable achievement. I have followed the debate this morning with interest. Some of the arguments on the amendments are finely balanced, although my hon. Friend made a persuasive case for their incorporation into the Bill. However, my hon. Friends the Member for Fareham (Mr. Hoban) and for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) also gave some persuasive arguments about why we should be concerned by the amendments. I wish to tease out some of the issues and I hope that the Minister will be able to reassure the House that there is nothing sinister behind the amendments, whether intentional or otherwise. It would also be helpful if the Minister could clarify which of the amendments are required to comply with EU law and which ones are just thought to be a desirable addition to the Bill. I am not entirely clear which ones we have to accept just to comply once again with our masters in Brussels. My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch made a persuasive case that hybrid instruments have stood the test of time. From the Committee proceedings that he quoted, they would appear to have been in place for some 80 years, so the Government need to do much more to explain why something that has stood the test of time for so long and been considered an important part of our procedure should be ditched for the purposes of this Bill. My hon. Friend suggested that that was a slippery slope that might be extended at some point to future issues, so it is important that the principle that hybrid instruments can be brought before the House is considered in detail. I would not like us to ditch something willy-nilly, after a short debate with few Members present on a Friday morning, for the sake of something that is not necessary. I hope that the Minister can clarify why Lords amendment No. 1 is necessary. My hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West said that he could not envisage anybody who might wish to bring the question of hybridity forward, and the only people who would wish to do so would be mischief makers. My hon. Friend has much experience in such matters, and he may well be right, so I shall not quibble with him. However, it says in the explanatory notes—Lord Evans of Temple Guiting made the same point in the debate in the House of Lords—that"““an order under clause 3 could…require an EEA mutual society acquiring a UK mutual to give transferring members full membership rights in the EEA mutual. If the EEA mutual has a unique legal form that might raise a question of hybridity.””" That suggests that the Government accept that the Bill might raise questions of hybridity and no one seems to dispute that point. The amendment is merely there to ensure that when a question of hybridity is raised, the hybrid instrument procedure would not apply. My hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West made the point that the amendment will prevent unnecessary delay and stop mischief makers causing trouble. That may well be right. It strikes me, however, that if the Government are acknowledging that a question of hybridity could arise, the amendment could prevent a necessary delay from taking place. I do not understand what huge advantage the amendment provides that justifies ditching an important tradition that has stood the test of time. The Minister should go into detail to explain why the amendment is necessary. It strikes me that it is required not for us to comply with EU law, but because the Government think that it is desirable. She should make the position clear. Amendments Nos. 2 and 3 would widen the definition of a mutual society. We had an interesting discussion about mutual vineyard owners taking over financial institutions. The point behind that is important. Proposed new paragraph (c) in amendment No. 3 states that the body is"““a body which is a cooperative or mutual undertaking of such description as the Treasury specify by order””." I tend to be cynical about such measures because they are deliberately vague and might allow the Treasury, perhaps at a later date, to do something that was not intended when the Bill was passed. Given that, it would help the House if the Minister made it clear which bodies the Treasury intends to specify by order, and if she made a commitment that that would not be extended without further parliamentary scrutiny.