UK Parliament / Open data

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate on bills and Committee proceeding on Tuesday, 20 February 2007, in the House of Lords.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

689 c1-62GC

Session

2006-07

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords Grand Committee

Welfare Reform Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 24-EN also published.
Wednesday, 10 January 2007
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c57GC (Link to this contribution) From the customer’s point of view, they will have an assessment that will look at entitlement for ES...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 689 c59GC (Link to this contribution) There is a broader point underlying this important group of amendments—the spatial incidence of unem...

Show all contributions (156)

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c61-2GC (Link to this contribution) It is interesting to reflect that, when he was Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, Alan Johnso...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c52GC (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. I agree entirely with the thrust of the noble Lord’s point. We seem to be arguing only a...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c12GC (Link to this contribution) The £40 is for a 12-month period. If somebody goes into work, that starts a 12-month period; if they...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 689 c17GC (Link to this contribution) This is a very important issue in principle, although the amendment seeks to change an important par...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c10GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to keep interrupting. Is the noble Lord’s reference to Access to Work? That is a differen...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c9GC (Link to this contribution) To clarify that, will some people be worse off ““over a period””, as the Minister put it?

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c44GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord makes an interesting point. One could do it by discretion or by flexing the current r...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c41GC (Link to this contribution) That will be very welcome to all of us and the various people who have been advising us on this seri...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c47GC (Link to this contribution) I want to add one small point arising from what the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, said about the DW...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c50GC (Link to this contribution) Why is Access to Work not well known? I take the point that it is well known in jobcentres and so fo...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c44GC (Link to this contribution) That is well worth considering, although the tidier minds in the department may not approve of what ...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c44GC (Link to this contribution) Half a carrot is better than no carrot at all. I am grateful for that. I will think further and poss...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c33-4GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 48, which has been tabled in my name, is in this group. In speaking to it, I shall spe...

Countess of Mar | 689 c34GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale. He knows that I have spoken abo...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c11GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister and shall be satisfied with that for the moment. The Minister went on to say t...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c11GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise for interrupting, but I do not want there to be any misapprehensions. The disability pre...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c14-5GC (Link to this contribution) The amendment seeks to provide powers to disregard payments received and ensure that activity undert...

Lord Morris of Manchester | 689 c13GC (Link to this contribution) I am happy to speak on this amendment and will do so briefly. Refusal to respond positively to it co...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 689 c16GC (Link to this contribution) I have my own particular area of confusion to add. It seemed that what was being indicated was that ...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c18GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 4: 4: Schedule 1 , page 52, line 41, leave out paragraph (g) The noble Lord s...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c17-8GC (Link to this contribution) On the purpose of the amendment, I emphasise that there are already provisions in the Bill so that t...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c18GC (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords who have spoken on this amendment. I never realised it would give rise to su...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c11GC (Link to this contribution) Nil desperandum.

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c10GC (Link to this contribution) That makes me even more confused, I am afraid. I shall now have to read out the Answer that the nobl...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c10GC (Link to this contribution) I accept that but, given that the existing experience is based entirely on volunteers and that the n...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c10GC (Link to this contribution) I do not altogether follow the noble Lord’s argument; nor do I agree with him that Pathways to Work ...

Lord Addington | 689 c9GC (Link to this contribution) To come back on that, is it the case that existing claimants are fine, but there is a possibility th...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c8-9GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend for giving me the opportunity to clarify that matter. I confirm tha...

Lord Addington | 689 c9GC (Link to this contribution) I think the Minister will be able to confirm that the premiums will mean no one will lose out in cas...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c27GC (Link to this contribution) Clearly, I shall have to consider this in some depth. What the Government are proposing is in many c...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c27GC (Link to this contribution) If there are any points that I can clarify for the noble Lord, I shall be happy to do so. What is he...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c26-7GC (Link to this contribution) The point of the noble Baroness’s question is that people will not have that advantage until they ac...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c27GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is right that if the assessment is completed before the end of week 13, the extra arr...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c27GC (Link to this contribution) I will certainly write to noble Lords so that we can try to put this matter to bed. Under existing a...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 689 c27GC (Link to this contribution) If my noble friend explains the difference in levels of support under the current system of SSB, sho...

Lord Addington | 689 c28GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 7: 7: Clause 2, page 2, line 29, leave out paragraph (c) The noble Lord said:...

Lord Addington | 689 c29GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for saying that. If I heard him correctly, the affirmative procedure will be br...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c30-1GC (Link to this contribution) From these Benches, I support the amendments. The Minister made a very welcome announcement at Secon...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 689 c29GC (Link to this contribution) It is not unusual to use them the other way round either. I think that I am against the amendment be...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 689 c20GC (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend on that. There is a real problem in defining full-time education. There ar...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c20-1GC (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to hear it. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. ...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c21-2GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 5: 5: Clause 2, page 2, line 27, leave out paragraph (a) The noble Lord said:...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c24GC (Link to this contribution) Does that still mean that the date of claim becomes the operative date, even though it is four month...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c24-5GC (Link to this contribution) I think that on that basis the date of claim—the commencement of the assessment phase—would be at th...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 689 c25GC (Link to this contribution) I think that I am clear about what is supposed to happen in these circumstances, but I have had expe...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c26GC (Link to this contribution) To answer that question you have to look at the whole of the benefit. I have already said that, if y...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c43-4GC (Link to this contribution) To clarify, it is one year. Perhaps I should have said, ““any softening at the end of that one year ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c50GC (Link to this contribution) The point is well made. The research on Access to Work shows that applications come from a range of ...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c45-6GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 27: 27: Clause 8 , page 6, line 8, leave out ““by”” and insert ““on the ground...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c46-7GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendments Nos. 57 and 58, which state that the healthcare professional must assess...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c41GC (Link to this contribution) I am awaiting a prod from the Box. My understanding is that it will be ab initio, from the date of t...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c39-40GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 15: 15: Clause 2 , page 3, line 2, at end insert— ““( ) For the purposes of th...

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c57GC (Link to this contribution) It needs to be made clear that although the Bill has separate clauses—Clause 8 and Clause 9—in reali...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c57GC (Link to this contribution) So, as I said, those assessed as being in the non-support group will undergo a further work-focused ...

Lord Addington | 689 c56GC (Link to this contribution) If it is functional capacity that is being tested, what is the process by which that is assessed if ...

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c55-6GC (Link to this contribution) I feel well and truly welcomed to my position and to this Committee. I thank noble Lords for their w...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c61GC (Link to this contribution) The report that he receives from the health professional?

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c61GC (Link to this contribution) The decision-maker is a member of staff at Jobcentre Plus and will make the decision on entitlement ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c62GC (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn to Wednesday 28 February at 3.45 pm.

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c62GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that whether it is fair or unfair. I shall have to ponder further on this one. However...

Lord Lyell | 689 c62GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee stands adjourned until Wednesday28 February at 3.45 pm. The Committee adjourned at 7....

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c62GC (Link to this contribution) The current PCA was introduced in 1995, and the comments made about it being stringent could apply t...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c54GC (Link to this contribution) I welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, on behalf of the rather large Liberal Democrat team. I th...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c51-2GC (Link to this contribution) In relation to whether the PCA should reflect socio-economic factors, of course it has an impact on ...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c51GC (Link to this contribution) Well into the middle of the Minister’s answer, I was worried that it was a purely personal departmen...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c52GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps what I am looking for is work to welfare reforms rather than welfare to work reforms. Having...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c11GC (Link to this contribution) The answer that I can give is the answer that I have already given. We simply have not set the rate ...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c12GC (Link to this contribution) That explanation is very helpful and will be extremely welcome to the various people advising me. I ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c16-7GC (Link to this contribution) I will try to deal with each of those points. On the specific question about whether there would be ...

Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 689 c1GC (Link to this contribution) Good afternoon. Before I call the first amendment I have to tell Members of the Committee that, if t...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c10GC (Link to this contribution) There is an expression about quitting while you are ahead. Quitting while you are behind is equally ...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c9-10GC (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to the Minister. I appreciate that I asked a long list of questions, some of...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c9GC (Link to this contribution) I stress again that the new rate has not been set and, until it has, it is not sensible to try to dr...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c4-8GC (Link to this contribution) I shall start in the same vein as the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, by acknowledging the expertise ...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 689 c8GC (Link to this contribution) I welcome my noble friend’s comments about, in due course, a mandatory transfer of people on existin...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c27-8GC (Link to this contribution) I am sure we all understand that now. However, should the assessment be completed early, there would...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c27GC (Link to this contribution) As progress has been fairly slow so far, perhaps I could suggest that that is done in writing. That ...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c30GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 13: 13: Clause 2, page 2, line 45, after ““condition”” insert ““(or both)”” T...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c31-2GC (Link to this contribution) I know that noble Lords and the disability lobby are keen to ensure that we consider both physical a...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c20GC (Link to this contribution) There is certainly a provision about education but, from what the Minister was saying earlier, he do...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c20GC (Link to this contribution) In paragraph 6(4) of Schedule 1, there is provision for regulations to cover the issue of education....

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c25GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for reading carefully into the record how he sees the system working in future,...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 689 c44GC (Link to this contribution) Why do we not extend the principle of flexibility that the Minister rightly frowns on and give discr...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c42-3GC (Link to this contribution) The income-related employment support allowance replaces income support for people with an incapacit...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c41-2GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 16: 16: Clause 4 , page 4, line 10, leave out paragraph (b) The noble Lord sa...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c41GC (Link to this contribution) Earlier.

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c47-50GC (Link to this contribution) This group of amendments concerns employers and attitudes of employers and what the Government will ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c44GC (Link to this contribution) That is certainly right on the contributory allowance component. It would not operate that way; we s...

Lord Haskel | 689 c45GC (Link to this contribution) Before I call the next amendment, I should say in regard to the amendments in the name of the noble ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c38-9GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is quite right; Basildon was one of the earlier pilots. I do not have the case load d...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c38GC (Link to this contribution) I should like to press the Minister on behalf of my noble friend Lord Kirkwood. I am sure that he me...

Countess of Mar | 689 c37GC (Link to this contribution) The problem with ME is that people can suddenly be tipped from being mildly or moderately affected i...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c35-7GC (Link to this contribution) These amendments focus on access to the support group and specifically on ensuring support group sta...

Lord Addington | 689 c33GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 14: 14: Clause 2 , page 3, line 2, at end insert ““, or ( ) he is undergoing o...

Lord Addington | 689 c40GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendments. Natural justice is being served by trying to bring this into the Bill. If ...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c39GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is an accountant and will be well aware that costs are calculated by multiplying the ...

Lord Addington | 689 c39GC (Link to this contribution) This has been an interesting debate which has gone quite wide of the wording of the amendment, and h...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c39GC (Link to this contribution) I shall write to the noble Lord on that point and give him as full a reply as I can. It is a very re...

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c58GC (Link to this contribution) I shall make one last point on this. It may not be the same health professional, but we must not for...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c57GC (Link to this contribution) That is extremely helpful, and I have not had the assessments explained to me in that way before. So...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c57GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Baroness. I have been labouring on these assessments under what appe...

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c56-7GC (Link to this contribution) The point that we need to look at is on the personal capability assessment descriptors that are very...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c61GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that I followed all that, and I have still not understood where the decision-maker fit...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c59GC (Link to this contribution) That is all right then.

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c59GC (Link to this contribution) I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, said that he was speaking to Amendment No. 33. Did...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 689 c54GC (Link to this contribution) I do not want to be left out of this welcome. It is a great pleasure. This is my first Committee, so...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c52GC (Link to this contribution) Again, that is more of a departmental answer than the one I was hoping to get from the noble Lord, w...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c52-3GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 30: 30: Clause 8 , page 6, line 17, at end insert— ““( ) make provision as to ...

Lord Addington | 689 c53-4GC (Link to this contribution) I must express a degree of envy. The noble Lord has put down an extremely good amendment that comes ...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c11-2GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that clarification; I clearly noted it down slightly wrongly. As for linking rule...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c12-3GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 3: 3: After Clause 1, insert the following new Clause— ““Service users (1) Thi...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c13-4GC (Link to this contribution) One of my correspondents told me of an individual who is currently in receipt of incapacity benefit ...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c16GC (Link to this contribution) To cut the mustard, I understood the Minister to be saying that disregard, permitted hours and the l...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 689 c15-6GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps my noble friend can assist me further. Is the department proposing to issue some guidance—fo...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c16GC (Link to this contribution) After that contribution, I feel that we on this side of the Room will enjoy the Committee more than ...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c18-9GC (Link to this contribution) We on these Benches also look forward to the Government explaining how they propose to deal with thi...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c11GC (Link to this contribution) I shall go on to the supplementary questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Addington. Some of our co...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c10GC (Link to this contribution) To be clear, the Pathways have been mandatory for new customers with the six work-focused interviews...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c9GC (Link to this contribution) The position of all existing claimants will be protected in cash terms. They cannot and will not be ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c9GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, it is possible because the allowance will deal with people in a different way. It is a differen...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c1-4GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 1: 1: Clause 1 , page 1, line 5, leave out subsection (1) The noble Lord said...

Lord Addington | 689 c4GC (Link to this contribution) I shall restrict my comments to Amendment No. 18 in this group. We are in the process of trying to g...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c26GC (Link to this contribution) That must be taken into account in the generality of the scheme. I stress that people in the support...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c29GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord tempts me to stray into areas where I should not go. I welcome his support on the bas...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c29GC (Link to this contribution) I referred to the regulations under the provisions which the noble Lord is seeking to delete. We hav...

Lord Addington | 689 c29-30GC (Link to this contribution) That would give us a chance to discuss this further to see whether any further clarification was nee...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c32GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that. I see on pages 39 to 42 of what I referred to earlier as the little red book...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c28-9GC (Link to this contribution) These amendments cover issues that are common to Clauses 2 and 4, which relate to the structure of t...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c20GC (Link to this contribution) I stressed earlier that we are looking into the most appropriate way to carry forward the current pr...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c19-20GC (Link to this contribution) I have no option but to withdraw the amendment, but it occurs to me that this paragraph is very loos...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c20GC (Link to this contribution) The issue of education and benefits and the question of who can and cannot access benefits is comple...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c19GC (Link to this contribution) The amendment would change the conditions of entitlement to the income-related allowance. It would r...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c22-3GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendments Nos. 6, 9, 12, 23 and 26 in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Add...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c25GC (Link to this contribution) The information that we have obtained from the Pathways pilots has caused us to determine 13 weeks a...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c26GC (Link to this contribution) I am happy to try again. It is self-evident that, if you pay work-related activity components or sup...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c26GC (Link to this contribution) The question we are asking is: will it be earlier or later than now?

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c23-4GC (Link to this contribution) The amendments relate to the assessment phase of ESA. They would affect our ability to set the level...

Baroness Meacher | 689 c26GC (Link to this contribution) I have a lot of sympathy for this amendment, particularly in relation to the support group, who I un...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c43GC (Link to this contribution) Earlier this afternoon, the Minister corrected me when I spoke about two years of the £40-a-week pay...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c41GC (Link to this contribution) I shall be as clear as I can. It is the date of the claim unless there is a backdating entitlement. ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c41GC (Link to this contribution) Earlier than the date of the claim. Practically speaking, you could not have paid before the date of...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 689 c38GC (Link to this contribution) May I add to the Minister’s burden, if he is going to write me a letter, to which I look forward? I ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c37-8GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Countess emphasises a good point. It is obviously important that healthcare professionals ...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 689 c35GC (Link to this contribution) I shall pose a couple of questions on this important group of amendments. They relate to the experie...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c41GC (Link to this contribution) That is exactly what the Minister said the first time. I am trying to establish the point of entitle...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c41GC (Link to this contribution) That is welcome as far as it goes, but only as far as it goes. I am delighted that there will be bac...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c40-1GC (Link to this contribution) I thank noble Lords for speaking to the amendments, which cover a sensitive topic that was raised du...

Lord Addington | 689 c39GC (Link to this contribution) That is a better response than I had thought or hoped for. I thank the Minister for that, and I hope...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c58GC (Link to this contribution) We will move on to the role and the contract terms of the personal adviser a later on, probably next...

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c61GC (Link to this contribution) The report that he receives from the health professional who has done the assessments under Clauses ...

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c59-61GC (Link to this contribution) The point about geography is essential. The drive behind these developments is to focus on the right...

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c59GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 43.

Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c58-9GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 31: 31: Clause 8 , page 6, line 17, at end insert— ““( ) ensure consistency of...

Baroness Masham of Ilton | 689 c55GC (Link to this contribution) From a Cross-Bench position, I support the amendments. Disability is exceedingly complex; when you a...

Subjects

Disability

Children

Disability living allowance

Charities

Benefits rules

Administration

Cancer

Advisory services

Chronic fatigue syndrome

Employment

Education

Incapacity benefit

Medical examinations

Pilot schemes

Qualifications

Mental health

Social security benefits

Training

Students

Unemployed people

Voluntary work

Pathways to work

Legislation

Welfare Reform Bill 2005-06 to 2006-07

Link

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