UK Parliament / Open data

Police and Justice Bill

Debate on bills on Tuesday, 24 October 2006, in the House of Commons.
Police and Justice Bill. Programme motion (No 2) on proceedings on consideration of Lords amendments. Agreed to on question. Lords amendments considered. Lords amendments 36, 81 to 85, 1, 71, 5 disagreed to. Lords amendments 10, 14 agreed to as amended. Other Lords amendments agreed to. Motion that a Committee be appointed to draw up Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to their amendments. Agreed to on question. Reasons reported and agreed to. Message to the Lords to communicate said Reasons, with the Bill and amendments.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

450 c1388-491, (corrigendum) 1636;450 c1388-491 

Session

2005-06

Department

Home Office

Legislative stage

Lords amendments

Procedure

Programme motions

Chamber / Committee

House of Commons chamber

Related items

Police and Justice Bill . Lords amendments
Thursday, 19 October 2006
Bills
House of Commons

Proceeding contributions

Robert Marshall-Andrews | 450 c1419-20 (Link to this contribution) I could see that you were about to rise to stop the hon. Gentleman, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I am gra...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 450 c1420 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Gentleman knows, I have enormous respect for him—and of course there can be loss in indi...

Show all contributions (250)
Lord Garnier | 450 c1420 (Link to this contribution) Because of the knives and the time constraints that we are under, we do not have time for more than ...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 450 c1419 (Link to this contribution) May I say, with enormous sadness and a funereal step, that I shall not be supporting Lords amendment...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 450 c1419 (Link to this contribution) Well done, the hon. Gentleman is right: injury without loss. Injured we most certainly have been—as ...
Boris Johnson | 450 c1419 (Link to this contribution) I am distressed to hear that the hon. and learned Gentleman will not vote on what I thought he agree...
David Heath | 450 c1418-9 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right on that last point. What should we do with this hopeless treaty? The sh...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 450 c1420-1 (Link to this contribution) May I assist the hon. and learned Gentleman? I took the trouble to sit by the Chair earlier to discu...
Lord Howard of Lympne | 450 c1423 (Link to this contribution) That is the case in respect of the United States, but not in respect of other member states of the E...
Lord Howard of Lympne | 450 c1423 (Link to this contribution) There are two answers to that. First, there is the question of reciprocity itself. When the Governme...
Chris Bryant | 450 c1423 (Link to this contribution) As far as I understand it, the right hon. and learned Gentleman is suggesting that reciprocity is th...
Lord Howard of Lympne | 450 c1422-3 (Link to this contribution) I pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Denham) for a truly outstanding ...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 450 c1423 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman’s point about reciprocity, and an injury ...
Gwyneth Dunwoody | 450 c1422 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I will not frighten my hon. and learned Friend if I say that I might not be with him—but...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 450 c1422 (Link to this contribution) No, what I am saying, and what the amendment provides, is that where there are offences that are par...
Lord Garnier | 450 c1421 (Link to this contribution) Just to make it clear, let me explain that I had not anticipated a second vote because of the timing...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 450 c1422 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased. Elucidation of that kind is always welcome, particularly at this time. I will be with ...
John Redwood | 450 c1425 (Link to this contribution) What if the person concerned works in London and his employer says that there is no charge to answer...
Alan Simpson | 450 c1425-6 (Link to this contribution) That is the attraction of Lords amendment No. 81, under which a hearing must be held. I would not be...
Boris Johnson | 450 c1426 (Link to this contribution) I begin by saying how passionately I agree with the last point made by the hon. Member for Nottingha...
Angela Watkinson | 450 c1426 (Link to this contribution) My constituent, Mr. Crook, is subject to extradition proceedings and is awaiting trial in the United...
Boris Johnson | 450 c1427 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is quite right. The key difference is that her constituent had absolutely no opportun...
Boris Johnson | 450 c1427 (Link to this contribution) I see the hon. and learned Gentleman rise from his seat like a rocketing pheasant—[Laughter.] Well, ...
John Denham | 450 c1424 (Link to this contribution) I entirely understand the right hon. and learned Gentleman’s point, and I was grateful for his earli...
Lord Howard of Lympne | 450 c1424 (Link to this contribution) That is the argument that I have been trying to rebut, and I am sorry that I have thus far not been ...
Alan Simpson | 450 c1424-5 (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to speak in the debate, but the comments made by the hon. Member for Somerton and...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1397-8 (Link to this contribution) I want to make progress, as I am sure that other hon. Members want to contribute to the debate. The...
David Heath | 450 c1398 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister give way on that point?
Andrew Murrison | 450 c1398 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. My constituent Mr. Giles Darby is one of the so-called NatWest Three....
Joan Ryan | 450 c1398 (Link to this contribution) I want to deal with the Lords amendments, but first I shall give way to the hon. Member for Westbury...
David Heath | 450 c1398 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister, as I want to speak from the consistent Benches. I draw her attention ...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1398 (Link to this contribution) We are discussing the Lords amendments, and it would not be appropriate for me to discuss individual...
Gerald Kaufman | 450 c1397 (Link to this contribution) Both of my hon. Friends who have intervened about Guantanamo Bay are right to say that it is a matte...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1397 (Link to this contribution) I can indeed confirm that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has written to my right hon. Frien...
Lord Garnier | 450 c1405 (Link to this contribution) It is sometimes possible in the House to lose the will to live. Let me try again, and I will speak a...
Rob Marris | 450 c1405 (Link to this contribution) Whether or not the hon. and learned Gentleman believes it, I am listening carefully to his speech an...
Lord Garnier | 450 c1403 (Link to this contribution) No. The right hon. Gentleman is almost right, but not entirely. He would be misleading himself if he...
John Denham | 450 c1403 (Link to this contribution) I may have misunderstood the point, but my understanding is that both France and Ireland have treati...
Lord Garnier | 450 c1404-5 (Link to this contribution) That is exactly right. The further exceptions that Ireland has come under article 3 and article 5 of...
David Heath | 450 c1403 (Link to this contribution) Is it not the case that although France and Ireland have unreciprocated treaties with the United Sta...
Tony Baldry | 450 c1401 (Link to this contribution) Could we not have highlighted another mistake if the Minister had allowed us to intervene? She seeme...
Lord Garnier | 450 c1401-3 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend and I know, as others will know from practising at the Bar, that judges day in and da...
Robert Neill | 450 c1403 (Link to this contribution) Further to my hon. and learned Friend’s point, is not the lack of reciprocity and the inadequacy of ...
Lord Garnier | 450 c1403 (Link to this contribution) It is, and what my hon. Friend says is true. I have before me a little list, which is no doubt exact...
Lord Garnier | 450 c1401 (Link to this contribution) The American jurisdiction has a concept of cruel and unusual punishment. Having listened to the Mini...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1400-1 (Link to this contribution) I am not going to give way any more on that point. Finally, the third change suggested by the Oppos...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1400 (Link to this contribution) I can assure my hon. Friend that our prosecutors look seriously at such matters. I refer him back to...
Neil Gerrard | 450 c1400 (Link to this contribution) Is it always the case that prosecutors in this country will seriously look at the case in that way? ...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1399 (Link to this contribution) I think I have covered that point more than once this afternoon, and we shall no doubt come back to ...
Lynne Jones | 450 c1399 (Link to this contribution) On the point about rough reciprocity, in previous debates in this and the other place Ministers stat...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1399 (Link to this contribution) As I said, I want to move on and deal with each of the three Lords amendments in turn. The first of...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1398 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is aware that British courts will deal with each application on it...
Lord Garnier | 450 c1407-8 (Link to this contribution) Let me make it clear to the hon. Lady, who at least represents a constituency within this jurisdicti...
John Denham | 450 c1408-9 (Link to this contribution) Non-lawyers such as I tread into these areas with some hesitation. The danger of being caught out on...
Lord Garnier | 450 c1409 (Link to this contribution) Did my right hon. Friend the Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron) mention then that he wanted an unequal ...
John Denham | 450 c1409-10 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman made only a brief intervention, so he was unable to cover that point. Such...
John Redwood | 450 c1406-7 (Link to this contribution) Did my hon. and learned Friend notice that the Minister said that it was now clear to the Government...
Lord Garnier | 450 c1406 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman’s experience of the federal jurisdiction in the United States is surely greater t...
David Howarth | 450 c1407 (Link to this contribution) If I may help the hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore), probable cause before a grand jury differs f...
Lord Garnier | 450 c1407 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend uses his own language. However, as we have said any number of times today, ther...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1407 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman has been on his feet for not far short of 25 minutes, giving us his l...
Viscount Hailsham | 450 c1406 (Link to this contribution) As a result of what the Home Secretary has done, we have given greater protection to the citizens of...
Lord Garnier | 450 c1406 (Link to this contribution) That is the regrettable and inescapable conclusion that we must draw from the treaty agreed by the r...
Speaker | 450 c1406 (Link to this contribution) Order. A chorus of sedentary comments from both sides is not helping the principal argument.
Lord Garnier | 450 c1406 (Link to this contribution) If I say it three times, the cock will probably crow, so I will leave the matter there. Under the 1...
Andrew Dismore | 450 c1406 (Link to this contribution) At the risk of the hon. and learned Gentleman being gratuitously rude to me, as he has been to other...
Lord Reid of Cardowan | 450 c1405 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the hon. and learned and Gentleman would deign to share his views, for the elucidation of le...
Lord Reid of Cardowan | 450 c1406 (Link to this contribution) It would help if the hon. and learned Gentleman understood English as well as he understands law. I ...
Lord Garnier | 450 c1406 (Link to this contribution) I think that my right hon. and learned Friend will agree that where there is no reciprocity is betwe...
Lord Howard of Lympne | 450 c1406 (Link to this contribution) Has my hon. and learned Friend spotted the complete contradiction between the line now taken by the ...
David Heath | 450 c1417-8 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right. Forum is not a matter that can be left to the prosecuting authorities. ...
Chris Bryant | 450 c1418 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman mentioned the process of negotiation of the treaty. I suggest that the situation ...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1417 (Link to this contribution) All this bluster does not make the hon. Gentleman’s contribution fact. The Government were always ve...
David Heath | 450 c1416-7 (Link to this contribution) It was precisely Mr. Norris’s case to which I referred, if perhaps rather obliquely, as it is not he...
Robert Neill | 450 c1417 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s point. It is also worth observing that in the case of French citiz...
David Heath | 450 c1417 (Link to this contribution) Well, modernising seems to involve running up a thoroughly modern white flag and saluting it. I acce...
Rob Marris | 450 c1414-5 (Link to this contribution) I think that the hon. Gentleman is trying to ride two horses, and that it is becoming rather uncomfo...
David Heath | 450 c1414 (Link to this contribution) That is a fair comment but not a genuine concern. We can expect from our Government due protection o...
Lord Garnier | 450 c1416 (Link to this contribution) If my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) had been in his place—he is in Committee—...
David Heath | 450 c1415-6 (Link to this contribution) There is no problem if protection of the obligations falls to the signatories to the Council of Euro...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 450 c1414 (Link to this contribution) I have listened carefully to a robust denunciation of what is undoubtedly an unequal treaty, with wh...
David Heath | 450 c1413-4 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, and I will turn to the point of dual criminality in a moment, as it is extremely important. ...
David Heath | 450 c1412-3 (Link to this contribution) It is a genuine pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Denham). It mu...
John Denham | 450 c1412 (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend makes an important point. These matters need to be made much clearer. Dec...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 450 c1411-2 (Link to this contribution) Before my right hon. Friend leaves the forum issue, will he reflect on something that is perhaps eve...
John Denham | 450 c1410-1 (Link to this contribution) It has to be my assumption that the reverse is the case. I have taken part in many debates in this H...
Boris Johnson | 450 c1410 (Link to this contribution) I am very interested in what the right hon. Gentleman is saying. Is he saying that negotiations on t...
John Denham | 450 c1410 (Link to this contribution) When the Home Affairs Committee held a one-day hearing on this matter last November with Judge Timot...
Gwyneth Dunwoody | 450 c1410 (Link to this contribution) I have been listening very carefully to my right hon. Friend and the point that he is making is enor...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1392 (Link to this contribution) For an individual for whom the courts are considering an extradition order, there is lengthy due pro...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 450 c1392-3 (Link to this contribution) It is a little distressing to see the Minister trying to argue an unarguable case, which is probably...
Speaker | 450 c1393 (Link to this contribution) Order. It sounds to me as though the hon. and learned Gentleman is capable of making a speech on the...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1393 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. and learned Friend for his support on fast-track extradition. We will have to agree ...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1393 (Link to this contribution) However, my hon. and learned Friend gets to the crux of the matter. As I said, this is about justice...
Andrew Dismore | 450 c1393 (Link to this contribution) One of the things that trouble me, and perhaps other Members, is the possibility of United Kingdom n...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1393 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I can satisfy my hon. Friend. The Attorney-General has opened discussions with his count...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1393-4 (Link to this contribution) I think that I should make a little progress. I will certainly take more interventions after that. ...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1394 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. There was an issue involving the Senate in that context. As my hon. Friend ...
Baroness Hoey | 450 c1394 (Link to this contribution) I am talking about IRA terrorists.
Baroness Hoey | 450 c1394 (Link to this contribution) The Minister said that the treaty had been agreed in America. Does that mean that the American Senat...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1394 (Link to this contribution) If my hon. Friend will bear with me for one moment, I will ensure that I give her an accurate answer...
Andrew Turner | 450 c1394 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister confirm that the US Senate has been told that there will be an amnesty for on-the-...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1395 (Link to this contribution) I am answering my hon. Friend’s intervention. In that category are some 50 countries with which we ...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1395 (Link to this contribution) I can indeed provide my hon. Friend with some examples—[Interruption.]
Joan Ryan | 450 c1389 (Link to this contribution) I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point, which has been made several times in the Chamber and in ano...
Lord Garnier | 450 c1389-90 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Under-Secretary for giving way so early in her remarks, but her point needs imm...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1390 (Link to this contribution) I regret that the hon. and learned Gentleman does not appear to have listened to what I said. Howeve...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1390 (Link to this contribution) I intend to give way to as many hon. Members as possible in the time available.
Joan Ryan | 450 c1389 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That this House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
Speaker | 450 c1389 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to take Lords amendments Nos. 81 to 85 and the Government motions to...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1389 (Link to this contribution) The adoption of these amendments by the other place was a bad day for international co-operation in ...
Richard Shepherd | 450 c1389 (Link to this contribution) The question is not about extradition per se but about making a prima facie case to the courts. The ...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1390 (Link to this contribution) I disagree. It is our duty to do justice, and our extradition arrangements are about justice for vic...
Humfrey Malins | 450 c1390 (Link to this contribution) The Under-Secretary may know that I sit part-time as a district judge, so I know as well as many our...
Lord Howard of Lympne | 450 c1390 (Link to this contribution) I do not ask the hon. Lady to accept anything that we say; I simply ask her to accept what her minis...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1392 (Link to this contribution) I say to the right hon. Gentleman that fraud is not entitled to some kind of exemption. There is no ...
Boris Johnson | 450 c1392 (Link to this contribution) When the Minister says that there is reciprocity because information is evidence, does she agree tha...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1391-2 (Link to this contribution) I should like to go back to the question that I just asked. What could be the problem? Why do Opposi...
John Redwood | 450 c1392 (Link to this contribution) The problem is that although many Conservative Members were tolerant and sympathetic to the Governme...
David Howarth | 450 c1391 (Link to this contribution) Is not the real difference between evidence on the one side and information on the other? Does not t...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1391 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is entirely wrong. The information is evidence.
Joan Ryan | 450 c1391 (Link to this contribution) I have said to the House that there is no exact parity. There is rough parity. I reiterate that case...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1391 (Link to this contribution) I want to make a little more progress, then I will give way to other hon. Gentlemen and hon. Ladies....
Joan Ryan | 450 c1392 (Link to this contribution) I have explained to the House that there is rough parity, and that in this context information is ev...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1397 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend, who has illuminated the point that I am making.
David Winnick | 450 c1397 (Link to this contribution) The situation in Guantanamo bay is very worrying for many of us, but when the magistrate who deals w...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1396 (Link to this contribution) I am not giving way on that point, as I want to make some progress. The treaty will also permit the...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1396 (Link to this contribution) We also have reciprocity with the US, as I have outlined a number of times. At the end of the day, t...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1396-7 (Link to this contribution) I know that that has been an issue of concern for several hon. Members, so I am grateful for the opp...
Emily Thornberry | 450 c1396 (Link to this contribution) Can my hon. Friend give specific reassurance to a group of my constituents from the Muslim Welfare H...
Lord Garnier | 450 c1395 (Link to this contribution) I am deeply grateful to the Minister. However, the planted intervention from the hon. Member for Wol...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1395 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to the hon. and learned Gentleman for a second time, but I know that he will have t...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 450 c1448 (Link to this contribution) That might pass for consultation in the Government, but I do not think that it is meaningful consult...
Tony McNulty | 450 c1448 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is not quite right. We would be obliged under the amendment to inform the inspect...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 450 c1447-8 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. The powers are not circumscribed at all. It is not clear ...
Jacqui Lait | 450 c1447 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his clear explanation of these issues. Does he think that the Ho...
Baroness Featherstone | 450 c1450-1 (Link to this contribution) It will come as no surprise that the Liberal Democrats will seek to retain both Lords amendments. F...
Tony McNulty | 450 c1449 (Link to this contribution) This is purely contingency planning by statute. Every statute in this area, and in many others, is l...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 450 c1449-50 (Link to this contribution) I certainly do not want to misquote the Minister. I was quoting the Minister in the other place, who...
Tony McNulty | 450 c1448 (Link to this contribution) For the same reason as the 1994 powers were on the statute book but never used. They will be a metho...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 450 c1448-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for repeating the words ““last resort””, even though they are still no...
Tony McNulty | 450 c1451 (Link to this contribution) Can the hon. Lady tell me precisely which police forces were disabled as she suggests, and how she k...
Charles Walker | 450 c1452 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for this opportunity—[Interruption.] I am sorry. Was the hon. Lady giving way?
Baroness Featherstone | 450 c1451-2 (Link to this contribution) If the Minister will forgive me, I did not say that forces had been disabled, but that there was the...
Baroness Featherstone | 450 c1451 (Link to this contribution) Thank you. Another lunacy is that the Home Secretary would have imposed mergers disabling many poli...
Speaker | 450 c1452 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am not sure whether the hon. Lady was giving way, but I suspect that she would like to add ...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1429 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I—
Tony McNulty | 450 c1439 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That this House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
Speaker | 450 c1439 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to take Lords amendment No. 71, the Government motion to disagree th...
Speaker | 450 c1429 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Lady should ask for the leave of the House.
Joan Ryan | 450 c1429-30 (Link to this contribution) May I seek the leave of the House to respond to our debate, Mr. Deputy Speaker? We have had a usefu...
Tony McNulty | 450 c1441 (Link to this contribution) Let me return to that shortly, if inspiration comes my way; otherwise I shall write to the hon. Gent...
Tony McNulty | 450 c1439-41 (Link to this contribution) The amendment would alter the process for making changes to police force areas. There are already pe...
Charles Walker | 450 c1441 (Link to this contribution) How many times have those existing powers been exercised since 1994?
Baroness Featherstone | 450 c1441 (Link to this contribution) What was the trigger for those interventions?
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 450 c1443-4 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation of why the Government disagree with Lords amendmen...
Tony McNulty | 450 c1441-3 (Link to this contribution) I shall return to that question as well, if I may, as it goes to the heart of many of our proposals ...
Michael Fabricant | 450 c1444 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend will know that as recently as today, the Government published a league table. Staffor...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 450 c1444 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that point, which he makes very well. He is rightly proud of his...
Tony McNulty | 450 c1444 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to stop the hon. Gentleman mid-flow, but I just want to make clear two points. First and ...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 450 c1444 (Link to this contribution) The Minister knows that he has published performance assessments. People are entitled to compare dif...
Michael Fabricant | 450 c1444 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. The Minister knows that Staffordshire Labour Members were also greatly conc...
Richard Shepherd | 450 c1428-9 (Link to this contribution) It is clear in my own mind that if we are a democracy and if we hold justice high it is appropriate ...
Boris Johnson | 450 c1428 (Link to this contribution) The Government’s assurances on many of those questions have proved quite worthless. I want to retur...
Sarah Teather | 450 c1427-8 (Link to this contribution) Was the hon. Gentleman as anxious as I was about the Minister’s hollow response, namely, that the UK...
Boris Johnson | 450 c1427 (Link to this contribution) I must press on, so I shall give way only briefly.
Boris Johnson | 450 c1427 (Link to this contribution) In that case, Mr. Crook would have the protection of forum. He would have the protection provided fo...
Rob Marris | 450 c1427 (Link to this contribution) May I take the hon. Gentleman back a bit to the unfortunate situation of Mr. Crook? How would his si...
Boris Johnson | 450 c1427 (Link to this contribution) I am saying that when we require the extradition of someone from America, it is possible for the def...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 450 c1427 (Link to this contribution) I have a brief query: is the hon. Gentleman saying that, in extradition proceedings in America, one ...
Charles Walker | 450 c1476 (Link to this contribution) In July the Home Secretary caught the mood of the House when he talked about doubling the prison sen...
Mike O'Brien | 450 c1475-6 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert) described the proposals as alarming. Hype...
Tony Baldry | 450 c1477-8 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I hope that it is in order. There are occasions when I feel asham...
Mike O'Brien | 450 c1477 (Link to this contribution) We have looked at the ways in which these cases could be determined, and at where the line should be...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 450 c1477 (Link to this contribution) If the Solicitor-General has no objection in principle to transferring the responsibility for senten...
Mike O'Brien | 450 c1476 (Link to this contribution) As I understand it, the Home Secretary said that the aim was to increase the maximum sentence. The c...
Speaker | 450 c1478 (Link to this contribution) Let me say to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, and to the hon. Gentleman who first raised the p...
Viscount Hailsham | 450 c1478 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I reinforce what my hon. Friend has just said? [Int...
Tony Baldry | 450 c1485 (Link to this contribution) The Minister seemed to give the House the impression that the so-called compromise, or stitch-up, ha...
Lord Garnier | 450 c1484-5 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is, as ever, disarming. He said that he had listened to both Houses of Parliament, but ...
Viscount Hailsham | 450 c1486 (Link to this contribution) I was a prisons Minister for two years and I placed enormous weight on the independence of the inspe...
Lord Garnier | 450 c1486 (Link to this contribution) Unfortunately, I do not because I have not had an opportunity to speak to him. However, I know what ...
Tony McNulty | 450 c1482 (Link to this contribution) I shall concentrate on the Opposition amendments, but colour in the background. I do not, incidental...
Speaker | 450 c1482 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss Lords amendments Nos. 11 to 14 and the Government amendme...
Tony McNulty | 450 c1482-4 (Link to this contribution) I fully accept that, of course, Mr. Speaker. I now turn to the Opposition amendments. We have large...
Speaker | 450 c1482 (Link to this contribution) Order. It is important to speak to the amendment. I have already spoken to the point of order, which...
Lord Garnier | 450 c1486 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with my right hon. and learned Friend. I trust that those who read the report of wh...
Tony McNulty | 450 c1482 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment (c) to the Lords amendment.
Baroness Featherstone | 450 c1486-7 (Link to this contribution) The proposal to merge the prisons inspectorate and create a combined inspectorate rightly caused gre...
Baroness Featherstone | 450 c1473 (Link to this contribution) I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Government’s pay-and-go policies let those who can afford it ...
Speaker | 450 c1473 (Link to this contribution) Order. I wonder whether the hon. Lady might consider using the phrase ““the Government’s”” policies,...
Viscount Hailsham | 450 c1474-5 (Link to this contribution) If it is put to the vote, I am going to support the Lords amendment. I regret that I disagree with m...
Baroness Featherstone | 450 c1474 (Link to this contribution) I am simply saying that a fine is punitive, and if someone can afford to pay that is well and good, ...
Charles Walker | 450 c1473 (Link to this contribution) But am I not right in thinking that, if someone appears before a magistrates court, that court will ...
Mike O'Brien | 450 c1473-4 (Link to this contribution) I am trying to follow the hon. Lady’s argument. At one point she seems to be in favour of reparative...
Baroness Featherstone | 450 c1473 (Link to this contribution) No, but the point about going to a magistrates court is that there is a whole other purpose involved...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 450 c1469-70 (Link to this contribution) We supported conditional cautions which were intended to enable the rehabilitation of offenders or e...
Mike O'Brien | 450 c1470 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is no doubt aware of the procurator fiscal system in Scotland. Will he tell me wh...
Speaker | 450 c1467 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman knows that his intervention must be related to the Lords amendment under d...
Mike O'Brien | 450 c1467-9 (Link to this contribution) I sought to be helpful to the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues who have asked me questions. If I can make...
Tony Baldry | 450 c1467 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the Solicitor-General will not think this churlish, but he has been speaking for 15 minu...
Mike O'Brien | 450 c1466 (Link to this contribution) It would not be our intention that burglary, especially residential burglary, would be dealt with by...
Peter Bone | 450 c1467 (Link to this contribution) The Solicitor-General outlines the way in which the police will contact the CPS and how the CPS will...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 450 c1470 (Link to this contribution) I am not aware of the procurator fiscal system in Scotland, but I am aware of the great concern expr...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 450 c1471-2 (Link to this contribution) It is one thing for an offender voluntarily to accept rehabilitation or reparation, but it is quite ...
Baroness Featherstone | 450 c1472 (Link to this contribution) Liberal Democrat Members are not concerned about conditional cautions—we support and approve of anyt...
Mike O'Brien | 450 c1472 (Link to this contribution) I am struck by the hon. Lady’s accusation that prosecutors may be involved in racism. They will make...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 450 c1470 (Link to this contribution) I understand my right hon. and learned Friend’s point, but I think that there is a difference in pri...
Charles Walker | 450 c1470 (Link to this contribution) Although the scheme proposed by the Government appears superficially attractive, I share my hon. Fri...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 450 c1470-1 (Link to this contribution) That is my precise concern. In the case of conditional cautions, however, the approach could apply t...
Viscount Hailsham | 450 c1470 (Link to this contribution) There is a slight difficulty with that argument. When one has fixed penalties, one has at least got ...
Baroness Featherstone | 450 c1472-3 (Link to this contribution) If the Solicitor-General gives me time, I will elaborate. I was referring not to prosecutors but to ...
Tony McNulty | 450 c1455-6 (Link to this contribution) I certainly agree with the thrust of what the hon. Gentleman says, although if I were pedantic I mig...
Jacqui Lait | 450 c1456 (Link to this contribution) Moving on slightly from that point, does the Minister accept that the mergers discussion postponed p...
Tony McNulty | 450 c1456-7 (Link to this contribution) No, I disagree with that, and I think that the hon. Lady will find that she meant to refer to the ho...
David Heath | 450 c1456 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is absolutely right that collaborations and discussions did happen. It seems to me that...
Tony McNulty | 450 c1456 (Link to this contribution) Much of that work is at least under way, if not developed, in some parts of the country. Avon and So...
Tony McNulty | 450 c1458-9 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry if the hon. Gentleman missed it, but I did say that any merger order would be subject to ...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 450 c1458 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for the reassurances that he has given on four points. I also asked about the i...
Tony McNulty | 450 c1457-8 (Link to this contribution) I want to make two points on that issue. First, what I said on counter-terrorism rightly does not pr...
Charles Walker | 450 c1457 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the Minister accepts that it was not my intention in my brief speech to diminish organis...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 450 c1459 (Link to this contribution) Why will not the Government put the words ““in the last resort”” into the Bill?
Tony McNulty | 450 c1459-60 (Link to this contribution) Because that is not necessary, and has not been since 1994—that is, over the course of two Governmen...
Mike O'Brien | 450 c1464-5 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That this House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment. The amendment remove...
Charles Walker | 450 c1465 (Link to this contribution) I apologise—I was not present in Committee—but what is the incentive for someone to choose a conditi...
Viscount Hailsham | 450 c1466 (Link to this contribution) The Solicitor-General has described how the system will apply to an offence of dishonesty. Will he r...
Mike O'Brien | 450 c1466 (Link to this contribution) Essentially we are looking at petty offences, although some of them, such as theft, concern people a...
Philip Dunne | 450 c1455 (Link to this contribution) On level 2 protective services, does the Minister agree that one of the benefits of closing the gap ...
Baroness Featherstone | 450 c1452-3 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful, to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I apologise for sitting down too soon. Lords amendment N...
Tony McNulty | 450 c1454-5 (Link to this contribution) With the leave of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We have had a reasonable and reflective debate, ri...
Lord Garnier | 450 c1407 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman. He demonstrates the difficulty of Government Members nippi...
Lord Garnier | 450 c1405 (Link to this contribution) Let me try again. As I said before the Home Secretary interrupted—I was delighted that he did—the te...
Mike O'Brien | 450 c1465-6 (Link to this contribution) There are a number of incentives. One is that the matter will usually be dealt with much more quickl...
Tony Baldry | 450 c1413 (Link to this contribution) Is not it a particular concern that a number of matters that are offences in the United States are n...
Joan Ryan | 450 c1394-5 (Link to this contribution) I have already fully answered the question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey)...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 450 c1445-7 (Link to this contribution) It is generally true that the public have been left behind in the reorganisation of public services—...
Richard Shepherd | 450 c1420 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman says there is no loss, but another reason for our concern is that if ...
Rob Marris | 450 c1395 (Link to this contribution) As I understand the amendment and the motion to disagree, we are dealing particularly with the USA. ...
Mike O'Brien | 450 c1467 (Link to this contribution) By and large, the pilots have not been an attempt to achieve that. The pilots have allowed us to tes...
Mike O'Brien | 450 c1471 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has said that he supports conditional cautions, but now he is trying to advance o...
Charles Walker | 450 c1453-4 (Link to this contribution) I fear that the House may have already heard the best of my speech, but I shall plough on regardless...

Notes

Daily part printing error - 1) Amendment to division list at 450 c1432, insert "Sir John Butterfield" under Noes. 2) Amendment to division list at 450 c1461, insert Patrick Hall.

Subjects

Crime
Burglary
Evidence
Extradition
Inspections
Drugs
Fines
International cooperation
HM Inspectorate of Prisons
Police
Powers
Prosecutions
Prisons
Offensive weapons
Mergers
Police authorities
Police community support officers
Police cautions
Reciprocal arrangements
Treaties
USA

Legislation

Police and Justice Bill 2005-06

Link

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