UK Parliament / Open data

Identity Cards Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Wednesday, 16 November 2005, in the House of Lords.
Identity Cards Bill. Lords Committee stage second day. Clause 1 under consideration. (Part 1 of 2 records).

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

675 c1073-1139 

Session

2005-06

Department

Home Office

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

Government defeats

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Related items

Identity Cards Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory notes HL Bill 28-EN also published.
Wednesday, 19 October 2005
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1129 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, really believe that those currently outside the system w...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 675 c1129 (Link to this contribution) If they want to use public services, yes.

Show all contributions (156)
Lord Crickhowell | 675 c1129-31 (Link to this contribution) I had not originally intended to take up the remarks make yesterday by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell...
Lord Maxton | 675 c1131 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may make a comment on the costs of technology. My first mobile phone—I was one of the firs...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1128 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased that the noble Lord asked that question because I was intrigued by his contribution yes...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 675 c1128 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Baroness accept that some people in society are completely outside the whole system o...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1128-9 (Link to this contribution) At the risk of taking the debate more broadly than I should—the noble Lord tempts me—of course I agr...
Lord Maxton | 675 c1131 (Link to this contribution) One cannot calculate what the cost of the technology will be 10 years down the line, because it is s...
Lord Crickhowell | 675 c1131 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I have often made the kind of speech that he has jus...
Lord Marlesford | 675 c1131-2 (Link to this contribution) I do not think, with the greatest respect, that the noble Lord has really got the point. The issue i...
Lord Peyton of Yeovil | 675 c1106 (Link to this contribution) Very well. I accept with some doubt that the noble Lord did not in fact mean that it would be adequa...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1106 (Link to this contribution) I did not mean what the noble Lord inferred. I said that it was already there by virtue of the Data ...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 675 c1107 (Link to this contribution) There is justification for having a declaratory clause at the beginning of a Bill. When the Scotland...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1106-7 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord makes a general comment about leaks. We are talking about secure data systems. I made...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1107-8 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that our arguments were different in that debate but I am grateful for the noble Earl...
Earl of Erroll | 675 c1107 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy, and the noble Lord, Lord Phillips. Th...
Lord Maxton | 675 c1108 (Link to this contribution) I have had some difficulty in trying to follow this argument. Noble Lords opposite seem to live in a...
Earl of Erroll | 675 c1108 (Link to this contribution) Then why not remove the phrase ““secure and reliable”” as the same reasoning applies to that?
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1104-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate. I take the strictures of the no...
Lord Peyton of Yeovil | 675 c1106 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for what he said about the quotation I used from the Select Committe...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1104 (Link to this contribution) I have added my name to the amendment. If I were to put forward any detailed reasons for why I suppo...
Lord Peyton of Yeovil | 675 c1103 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. In doing so, perhaps I may express some doubt as to whether some noble Lord...
Earl of Erroll | 675 c1103 (Link to this contribution) While I think that on the one hand this provision ought to be unnecessary because it should go witho...
Lord Crickhowell | 675 c1102-3 (Link to this contribution) Noble Lords will be relieved to hear that I do not intend to repeat anything I have said about the s...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1101-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 15:"Page 1, line 13, at end insert—" ““(   )   The Register shall be establish...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 675 c1104 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support the amendment. It would be a great improvement to the Bill.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1104 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may assist the noble Lord. I simply meant authorised under the Bill.
Lord Selsdon | 675 c1104 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. I am concerned about authorised use and access. I had assumed that some suc...
Earl of Northesk | 675 c1103-4 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. Like my noble friend Lord Crickhowell, I shall not repeat my earlier remark...
Baroness Seccombe | 675 c1101 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble and learned friend Lord Lyell of Markyate, the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, and the nob...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1100-1 (Link to this contribution) I understand what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell, is advocating and I can see why he is expr...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 675 c1100 (Link to this contribution) The Minister was kindly answering me, but I began to think that I had not put my question clearly. I...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1099 (Link to this contribution) I do not believe that it does. Clause 1(5) is the outer limit, so you could interpret it to demand t...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1099 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, I did not make myself clear. I accept that point, but my point was that the schedule goe...
Earl of Erroll | 675 c1100 (Link to this contribution) Presumably that will have capital gains tax implications for householders. Perhaps the Government sh...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1099-100 (Link to this contribution) We are in Committee but we cannot go on with this argument. I am sorry, but I persist in saying that...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1098-9 (Link to this contribution) I think the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland, said that the key to this part of the Bill, which is at i...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1097-8 (Link to this contribution) It is important to understand the differences between Clause 1(5) and the schedule, so I shall make ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1099 (Link to this contribution) Can I assist as to why I do not, respectfully, agree? If we look at the totality of Clause 1(5), we ...
Earl of Erroll | 675 c1099 (Link to this contribution) On the same point—the conflict between Clause 1(5) and what comes later—validation information as de...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 675 c1096-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for this amendment and the opportunity to probe this question. There are perfectly cle...
Earl of Erroll | 675 c1096 (Link to this contribution) This debate has started me thinking about this. Clause 1(5)(g) refers to,"““information about number...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1095-6 (Link to this contribution) As the noble Baroness knows, the statutory purposes of the identity card scheme and the national ide...
Baroness Seccombe | 675 c1094-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 13:"Page 1, line 11, leave out ““registrable facts about such””" The noble Baro...
Lord Boston of Faversham | 675 c1094 (Link to this contribution) I must inform the Committee that the number who voted Not Content in the first Division was 127, not...
Earl of Northesk | 675 c1093-4 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for her response, and thank all Members of the Committee who have contributed t...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1093 (Link to this contribution) We have no evidence. As the noble Lord knows only too well as a criminal lawyer, one has to have evi...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 675 c1093 (Link to this contribution) How does the Minister know that? The noble Baroness, Lady Henig, referred to criminal records and th...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1092-3 (Link to this contribution) Whether or not I should have been, I am quite happy to take the chastisement and will do as my noble...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1092 (Link to this contribution) For further clarification, at the beginning of the report there is a list of the members of an advis...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1125-6 (Link to this contribution) We have already had quite a debate on this and I will try to keep my comments brief. The amendment o...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1126 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for responding to what has been said. I am not sure that the point m...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1126-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 21:"Page 2, line 4, at end insert—" ““(4A)   For the purposes of subsection (4...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 675 c1128 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Baroness accept that there will be a substantial increase in the tax take arising out...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1124 (Link to this contribution) We think that the provision of information will make such activity more difficult right across the p...
Earl of Northesk | 675 c1124 (Link to this contribution) Can the noble Baroness clarify a point that the discussion on identity theft sparked in my mind? To ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1124-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 18:"Page 2, line 1, leave out paragraph (d)." The noble Lord said: I speak on b...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1124 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness is partly right and partly wrong. If, for example, an identity was stolen, and th...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1125 (Link to this contribution) The amendment stands in the name of my noble friend Lady Seccombe, among others. In a debate on a pr...
Baroness Corston | 675 c1125 (Link to this contribution) I wish to emphasise how right I think the Government are to leave in this provision. When I was a Me...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1123 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether the noble Baroness is right. There are already provisions in the Bill—she mentioned...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1123 (Link to this contribution) I was not necessarily dealing with just the theft of the card or the offences in relation to the reg...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1123 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Maxton, asks a fair question. None of those instances would be within the defin...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1123 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the point made by my noble friend Lord Maxton; moreover, it is right that if we were to...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1123-4 (Link to this contribution) My amendment would not be the three-year serious crime provision. If one of the other limbs catches ...
Lord Maxton | 675 c1123 (Link to this contribution) Are crimes such as shoplifting, taking and driving a car without consent—just for joyriding, not to ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1122-3 (Link to this contribution) Much of our debate on the previous amendment refers directly to this one. I know the noble Lord does...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1121-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 17:"Page 1, line 17, after second ““of”” insert ““serious””" The noble Lord sai...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1120-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate. In particular, the noble Barone...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1120 (Link to this contribution) I was not suggesting that under-age working was in relation only to migrant workers. It is a matter ...
Lord Crickhowell | 675 c1120 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness has made a very useful restatement of the role of the private sector, which I und...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1116-9 (Link to this contribution) It is not just obtaining new passports. It will now be necessary for new passports to contain biomet...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1119 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the noble Baroness will answer—not necessarily now—my rather gritty question on Section ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1119 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the noble Lord for not answering his question, but I shall do so now. It had slipped ...
Earl of Erroll | 675 c1119-20 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness mentioned that the measure would prevent illegal under-age working among immigran...
Earl of Erroll | 675 c1115 (Link to this contribution) What is wrong with producing a driving licence? It has my photograph, my signature and everything th...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1115 (Link to this contribution) Certainly, there is nothing in the Bill which would enable us to do so. Of course I cannot bind my s...
Lord Crickhowell | 675 c1116 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness makes a reasonable point about al-Qaeda operatives, but am I not right in thinkin...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1115-6 (Link to this contribution) That is a perfectly proper thing to say. Noble Lords will know that if you are stopped in the street...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1115 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness has made the point a number of times and it is of considerable reassurance. Is sh...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1113 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, but I think that my noble friend meant to refer to paragraph (d) on working or employment ra...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1113-5 (Link to this contribution) We have had a very interesting debate. I will deal with the substantive points made by the noble Bar...
Lord Crickhowell | 675 c1112-3 (Link to this contribution) I take up a point that has just been raised by the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, which concerns the defin...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 675 c1113 (Link to this contribution) When my noble friend Lady Anelay spoke to her amendment, I do not think that she said why she had om...
Earl of Erroll | 675 c1111-2 (Link to this contribution) I rise to make a couple of points. I notice that this amendment has left out the prevention of illeg...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1112 (Link to this contribution) I would like to follow up on the intervention made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, and a...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 675 c1111 (Link to this contribution) I want to raise a small point to be introduced on the back of the important matters which have just ...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1109-11 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 16:"Page 1, line 16, leave out paragraphs (a) to (e) and insert—" ““(a)   of a...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1108-9 (Link to this contribution) I confess to being disappointed by the Minister’s response. We were invited at the start of proceedi...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1136 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 22:"Page 2, leave out lines 6 to 33 and insert ““information which may be record...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1135 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate. In my opening speech on the amen...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1135 (Link to this contribution) At this stage it is not possible to identify all of the costs. It is also not desirable to do so, ce...
Earl of Northesk | 675 c1135 (Link to this contribution) Does that not reinforce the point made so eloquently by my noble friend Lord Crickhowell that, in or...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1134-5 (Link to this contribution) For the reasons that we have been putting forward in many of our debates on this measure, I think it...
Earl of Northesk | 675 c1134 (Link to this contribution) If I have understood the Minister’s explanation correctly, it is possible that this scheme could com...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1132-4 (Link to this contribution) I specifically do not commit to that for very good reasons. I shall deal with the point now. We woul...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1132 (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister saying that we shall have the capital cost details by the Report stage?
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1132 (Link to this contribution) We on these Benches are sympathetic to the spirit of Amendment No. 21. I do not want to belabour the...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1138-9 (Link to this contribution) I understand why the noble and learned Lord has raised this point. The reason for inserting the word...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 675 c1139 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness. If she will consider the matter again and look round corners, I...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1137 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for that response. The only issue that arises—I may have mentioned it ear...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1137 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for thinking again about the amendment. I understand what he says about the c...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1138 (Link to this contribution) That is extremely helpful. I take for granted the need for technical additions. I was referring to C...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1137-8 (Link to this contribution) We understand that this whole area may develop quite quickly and that the way in which we store biom...
Lord Crickhowell | 675 c1136-7 (Link to this contribution) I shall refrain from making comments which I could have done on the amendment. I prefer to make them...
Baroness Fookes | 675 c1136 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may point out that if Amendment No. 22 is agreed to I cannot call Amendments Nos. 23 to 45...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1139 (Link to this contribution) It might be for the convenience of the House if we move on to the next business. I therefore beg to ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1139 (Link to this contribution) Even this Parliament cannot legislate that a fact is not a fact for the purposes of criminal proceed...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1074-5 (Link to this contribution) I understand from Amendment No. 9 that the eminently reasonable noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, wants t...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1073-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 9:"Page 1, line 10, after ““others”” insert ““who reasonably require proof””" T...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1073 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Mov...
Lord Peyton of Yeovil | 675 c1075 (Link to this contribution) I hope that she will do nothing of the kind. If this were the first time that the business of inform...
Lord Brabazon of Tara | 675 c1085 (Link to this contribution) Before calling Amendment No. 11 standing in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Northesk, I should poin...
Earl of Northesk | 675 c1085-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 11:"Page 1, line 11, leave out ““secure and reliable””" The noble Earl said: I ...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1082 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may finish my point. A licensee has the right to ask for proof of identity and therefore h...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1082 (Link to this contribution) It would be enforced in the way that the rest of the Bill is to operate; that is, to offer the same ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1082 (Link to this contribution) If that is the case, how would the noble Baroness envisage this clause being enforced with this amen...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1082-3 (Link to this contribution) I shall read very carefully indeed what the noble Baroness said when I have the opportunity to do so...
Baroness Corston | 675 c1082 (Link to this contribution) With respect, the noble Baroness may have misunderstood what I said. I do not think that I said anyt...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 675 c1082 (Link to this contribution) At the heart of the amendment are the words, ““who reasonably require proof””. Will the noble Barone...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1078 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps it might assist the Committee if I respond to that now, since we are at Committee; it might ...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 675 c1078-9 (Link to this contribution) May I support my noble friend Lady Anelay, who said that this was a probing amendment, and probe a p...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 675 c1077-8 (Link to this contribution) I have to say to the noble Lord, Lord Gould, that I do not think he should consider that people who ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1078 (Link to this contribution) I wonder if I could ask a question of the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, because I am not perfectly cl...
Lord Waddington | 675 c1077 (Link to this contribution) We are talking not only about an identity card but about a register. In this amendment we are talkin...
Lord Gould of Brookwood | 675 c1077 (Link to this contribution) I think that the noble Lord misunderstands the nature of the lives that most people live: how they w...
Lord Waddington | 675 c1077 (Link to this contribution) I certainly do not think that when the state bestows upon somebody an identity card that that person...
Baroness Corston | 675 c1076-7 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for his courtesy in giving way. Is he aware that many women from our ethnic m...
Lord Waddington | 675 c1076 (Link to this contribution) We ought to be clear about what we are talking about. Surely every time a body obtains access to the...
Lord Crickhowell | 675 c1075-6 (Link to this contribution) I do not have difficulty with the principle that if you are opening a bank account you have to ident...
Lord Lucas | 675 c1081 (Link to this contribution) Following on from what the Minister has just said, what provisions do the Government propose to make...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1081 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps we are struggling to get the point over. Perhaps the noble Lord has not heard or read all th...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1081-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all noble Lords who have participated in the debate. I think that my amendment woul...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1080 (Link to this contribution) The reason is that they would not provide the protection that noble Baroness suggests, nor would the...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 675 c1080 (Link to this contribution) I may be being obtuse, but I cannot see why the inclusion of these words is so damaging.
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1081 (Link to this contribution) I make it clear to the noble Lord that we are not going to oblige people to carry the card. That nee...
Lord Peyton of Yeovil | 675 c1080-1 (Link to this contribution) I very much doubt whether the Minister’s explanation has helped anyone in the Chamber, and certainly...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1079-80 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for tabling the amendment in particular because it has enabled some Membe...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1080 (Link to this contribution) In most cases, it will not give access to the register. Most organisations which are seeking proof o...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 675 c1080 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is making a good point that prima facie the card may be helpful. But, after all, access...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1090-1 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, is right. I indicated yesterday that we will come to that issue in ...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1089-90 (Link to this contribution) First, I shall pick up two points made by my noble friend Lord Selsdon and by the noble Earl, Lord E...
Baroness Corston | 675 c1092 (Link to this contribution) While my noble friend is finding the appropriate place, perhaps I may comment on something she said ...
Earl of Erroll | 675 c1088 (Link to this contribution) As I have pointed out before, in Operation Glade, policemen were arrested for selling information fr...
Baroness Henig | 675 c1088 (Link to this contribution) I wish to express some surprise at the points that have been made about security. I heard what the n...
Earl of Erroll | 675 c1089 (Link to this contribution) If there is a statutory duty that the database be secure and reliable, what will the position be if ...
Lord Crickhowell | 675 c1087-8 (Link to this contribution) No doubt we shall be told that the requirement contained in the amendment is unnecessary as there ar...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 675 c1132 (Link to this contribution) We have again strayed dangerously into yesterday’s territory. I shall pay a few compliments and offe...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1092 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend is absolutely right: it is the Davies report. I am perhaps in error in calling it th...
Lord Selsdon | 675 c1088-9 (Link to this contribution) I must declare an interest as secretary of the Parliamentary Space Committee. Many of the members of...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 675 c1120 (Link to this contribution) We have made that clear to the service providers. In their experience—as banks and other lenders, in...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 675 c1138 (Link to this contribution) The final part of Clause 3(3) states:"““there is to be a conclusive presumption for the purposes of ...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 675 c1082 (Link to this contribution) I have not provided for penalties because I adopt the same approach as that of the noble Baroness, L...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 675 c1087 (Link to this contribution) I have tabled Amendment No. 175, which stands in my name and those of the noble Baronesses, Lady Ane...

Subjects

Data protection
Databases
Crime prevention
Costs
Banks
Fraud
Identity cards
Undocumented migrants
Domicil
Personal records
Personation
Proof of identity
Registration
Terrorism
Security

Legislation

Identity Cards Bill 2005-06

Link

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